Talk:Legion

Sourcing Error
Just want to point out that the link (http://www.justin.tv/clip/cadf6901823c6456) used to source the sentence "Understandably, Tali is at odds with Legion and becomes resentful towards Shepard for recruiting him" doesn't actually have anything to do with Tali's reaction to Legion's recruitment. The only characters seen are Shepard, Legion, EDI and a Normandy security guard. I'm not sure if the person who added the link accidentally copy-pasted the wrong one or whatever, but I felt this needed to be addressed. 193.134.242.13 10:19, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

UPDATE: Thanks to FatherNestor for fixing it, but now we don't have a source for that sentence at all =P 193.134.242.13 10:47, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Is There a Confirmation That He Will Be a Squadmember?
Where is it confirmed that he is a squadmember?


 * The NowGamer article linked in the article confirms that the geth shown in the first teaser trailer could become a member of your team, and the trailer in question was named the 'Legion' Trailer on the Bioware site prior to the revamp. --TheWilsonator 04:29, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * it doesn't confirm it, it says that "apparently". Also kinda strange that Legion is shown in "enemies" video. And there is no official confirmation from Bioware devs that he is a squadmember.


 * While the 'apparently' wording makes it somewhat less solid, (I think he was just covering his arse because Bioware was still keeping a lot of info under wraps, including Legion), the article in OXM also mentions that players will "really connect" with the character, hinting that he will be around for the haul. They also gush about his emotive expressions etc. He appears in the 'enemies' trailer, but it doesn't necessarily mean he won't join you. It wouldn't be the first time Bioware let an former foe join your squad. They could also be throwing people off with his geth connection. In fact, the whole character seems exist at least partly to subvert the 'every geth is mindless and hostile' trope. Now if only they'd show us a nice batarian... --TheWilsonator 05:13, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * 'Nice' and 'Batarian' do not go together :P I'd rather be able to satisfactorily smash that one from BDTS between all four eyes with the butt of a rifle. I have a grudge against those guys in particular, mainly because of the DLC. Phylarion 10:28, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * In the official Mass Effect Soundtrack there is a track entitled Legion, the only other tracks named after characters are those of team members and a track named after the Illusive Man. The recent Art of Mass Effect videos also spent a lot of time discussing how much time they spent bothering to actually articulate Legion's face so he could convey emotions. While neither is a direct confirmation, this, along with his appearance in Sci vs Fy being dragged aboard your ship while Thane provides cover fire against Husks leads to nearly overwhelming circumstantial evidence that he is a member of your team. --ABCoLD 07:55, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, as likely as it is he will be a squadmember, circumstantial evidence isn't enough. We need something, like an achievement*, that directly ties Legion to the squad before we can add him.


 * * Unfortunately the naming of that achievement, obviously designed to avoid spoilers, isn't quite a direct confirmation, in the way Garrus' was, where we've seen him being called Archangel. JakePT 08:00, January 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Two points to address regarding the post by ABCoLD- 1) There is also a track on the ME2 Soundtrack called The Illusive Man, which you mentioned. If the track called Legion is circumstantial evidence that Legion is a squad member, does that not mean that there is circumstantial evidence the Illusive Man is a squad member? The Illusive Man likely has a track b/c he is a major character. Does it not stand to reason that therefor Legion could be on there for the sole reason that it too is a major character? After all, not all confirmed squad members have a track. Poor Zaeed Messani is left out. And 2) Please fix or remove the redlinks from your post, if you could. There are not articles on this wiki for the items you placed in internal links, and we try to keep redlinks out of the articles and talk pages whenever possible. Thanks, SpartHawg948 08:28, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

I just found a clip where Legion is confirmed to be part of Shepard's Squad, http://www.justin.tv/clip/cadf6901823c6456 Shadowhawk27 13:17, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Legion is in in Shepard's Squad in the leak feed on justin tv, I can confirm what Shadowhawk27 said. (Frosted Vert 14:37, January 22, 2010 (UTC))

Legion as a He
They refer to him several times as a 'he' in the recent trailer. --TheWilsonator 09:14, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, but Legion refers to itself as we. If it doesn't consider itself male, and it is a synthetic, asexual being, how can it be classed a he? SpartHawg948 09:15, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * True, but his voice and build are masculine- and bioware refer to him as male. Many fictional bots and AIs are classed as masculine and feminine based on their general personality, voice and appearance, such as HK and Avina on this very wiki. I think we can safely assume it's a dude geth. --TheWilsonator 09:19, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * So, all geth are males? He has the same build as the standard geth trooper. As for the voice, it's synthetic, and most likely programmed in, not something Legion changed on a whim. Seeing as it has a cookie-cutter build standard for it's race, has a synthesized voice that as far as we know was not of it's own choosing, and has (as yet) no demonstrated male personality (even contradicting this theory by calling itself "we"), then by your own logic, I think we should keep referring to it as "it". Remember, we're not in the business of making assumptions in the articles here, safe or not. SpartHawg948 09:24, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, but what about the Bioware referral? --TheWilsonator 09:29, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Plenty of people refer to the asari as "She", including BioWare people, but they too are genderless (or monogendered, rather) beings. It was probably just something that came naturally. It's not natural to refer to a sentient being as "it" in conversation, and that tends to kinda leap out as unusual. It was most likely a slip of the tongue, and at the end of the day, the ultimate canon source is the game, and so far it points towards a gender neutral Legion. Now, as with everything where I take a strict speculation-busting, better safe than sorry approach, if it does turn out that Legion is acknowledged as being w/ male programming/personality, I'll happily step aside. Till then, if an asexual synthetic being calls itself "we", I'm gonna go ahead and not make gender assumptions. SpartHawg948 09:37, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, I was just wondering since you hadn't addressed that point yet. No need for the barbs. --TheWilsonator 09:38, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, not sure what you're referring to. I don't see any "barbs" in my post, I was merely addressing the point, which I had thought was already covered. After all, Legion's use of the "we" to refer to itself WAS written by the BioWare people, likely with much more forethought than went into the casual use of "he" by someone in an interview. Again, though, not really sure what "barbs" are being referred to, I was merely answering your query to the best of my ability. SpartHawg948 09:44, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * No worries, I was probably just being paranoid. Let's just wait for future interviews or the game to shed some light on all this. --TheWilsonator 09:45, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Legion isn't referring to himself as "we", he's referring to the geth as "we", both his spoken lines are clearly talking about the geth (or maybe more broadly, synthetics) in general, not himself: "We do not experience fear, but we understand how it affects you" and "Organics do not choose to fear us is is a function of your hardware". I think "he" is fine, or instead follow the standard set by Sovereign and just refer to hi..th..he... it as Legion. JakePT 08:02, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you have sourcing supporting the claim that Legion is referring to the collective and not itself? Because that is far from obvious in the videos released so far. It doesn't really seem to add up that the first geth to think as an individual would speak in terms of the collective. Again, as I hypothesized below, it could be referring to itself but saying we and us as a holdover from it's time in the collective. Honestly, I don't see why it's such a contentious idea to refer to a genderless synthetic being as it. SpartHawg948 08:30, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * There's no reason to think that it isn't. The idea that a geth, individual or not, would refer to themselves as "we" and "us" has been completely pulled out of thin air, not to mention that the two occasions he refers to "we" and "us" the traits he is referring to are not specific to Legion, and are better understood as referring to all geth or synthetics. Also, referring to oneself as "me" instead of "we" would, if I had to guess, be the first thing that such a being would start doing. Anyway, if a crazy person referred to themselves as "we" no one would call them "they" so it's not really relevent to the he/it discussion anyway. I propose we just go with shklee. :P


 * Anyway, this isn't a debate that's going to be settled by the Mass Effect wiki, since it hasn't been settled anywhere else.


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun


 * JakePT 08:49, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it was pretty much pulled out of the same thin air as the assumption that an individual conversing with another individual would refer to itself as part of a collective it has evolved beyond. As for a crazy person, if it was a crazy GENDERLESS SYNTHETIC I'd refer to it as an it, not a he or she. Comparing a self-aware sentient genderless synthetic to an insane human is beyond apples and oranges, it's apples and watermelons. :) SpartHawg948 08:54, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you are mistaken about what "we" implies. If Legion says "we" in a way that includes the Geth, it does not mean he necessarily believes himself to be a part of the Geth collective. There are multiple layers of inclusiveness. It could mean "we, as synthetics, do not experience fear..." it could mean "we, as members of the Geth species,..." it could mean "we, as members of the Geth collective,..." I think everyone agrees with you that it is unlikely that Legion intends the last meaning. But we are saying that it is far more likely that he intends the first two (we=synthetics or we=Geth species), than it is for Legion to intend "we=itself."--69.200.247.132 20:21, December 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough... you think I'm mistaken, and I think there's a very real chance it's you who are mistaken. Hooray for differences of opinion and disagreeing without being disagreeable! However, do want to point out, jik you start making edits to actual articles, please refer to the policy for alien race names, as the proper way to phrase it on this wiki is of course "geth", "geth collective" and "we=geth species". As for the rest, as I stated several times, it's just a theory, and honestly it's not that original on my part, as I drew from some of the Star Trek episodes where Borg were separated from their collective, so we'll just have to wait and see! The original point about not referring to a genderless synthetic with no discernible gender-specific programming who either refers to itself as we or has not yet done so at all, however, still stands! SpartHawg948 20:32, December 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * In an aside, as stated above I am perfectly happy changing the references to him, his, he, whatev if it is shown that Legion refers to itself thusly. I'm with TheWilsonator, we should wait for more conclusive videos or the game itself before making these changes though. SpartHawg948 08:56, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Personally I think he is refering to himself as "we". I'm willing to bet my left testicle that he's made up of multiple Geth, and therefore is probably a neural network in himself. Which would explain his higher intelligence. Just speculating.. lol :).--92.1.139.73 01:39, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * or it could just be an occipital feature like a human tail bone.--MPS Biotic 15:19, January 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * What could be an occipital feature? I'm so confused now. The tail bone is not an occipital feature. Occipital means pertaining to (or located on or around) the back of the head (aka the occiput). Did you perhaps mean vestigial? The tailbone is a vestigial feature, as it no longer performs it's intended role, as we've outgrown the need for it, even though it still does serve some limited purpose as a major anchor point for muscles and tendons and whatnot. Regardless, I'm not sure I follow. The use of "we" could be a vestigial feature? I suppose it could be, although I really don't see how a sentient machine that has managed to sever it's link from a greater collective can't also overcome some more minor programing and manage to use proper personal pronouns. SpartHawg948 20:24, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Why does it matter? Do you want to know so you can choose the right sex for Shepard in case you get to bang it? It makes NO difference!


 * The use of we is likely either Legion refering to a group he belongs to (Geth would obviously fit there) or it may be a holdover, have you never said something all your life, some incorrect fact, or recently corrected grammatical error, or something from a native language and not been able to erase its use from you speach immediatly or even months or years later?Kre &#39;Nunumee 04:03, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * A holdover, eh? A holdover from it's time in the geth (no caps in geth, remember) Collective? Why does that theory sound familiar? Why indeed? Oh, I know! Because that's the theory I've been suggesting ever since early November of last year! :P SpartHawg948 04:24, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Excelent sarcasm, and yes I already knew this, you're the one who gave me the initial idea. But if you want 20% of the profits from this statement then you can suck it. Also, awsome pownage with the 'occipital feature' info.Kre &#39;Nunumee 04:03, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * 2 things. 1) Watch the language. We have a policy about not insulting other users or using rude language towards them. Telling another user they can "suck it" is hardly called for. 2) I don't want 20% of any non-existent profits, I'd just like it if people didn't just take something I theorized, reword it, throw in some spelling errors, and attempt to pass it off as an original theory on their part. SpartHawg948 05:15, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're *sob* so *sob* HURTFULL, waaaaaaaaa!Kre &#39;Nunumee 23:13, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

In all probability the quote in question particularly when legion says "we" is actually referance to itself simply because Legion the name is a referance to the biblical demon Legion who in turn says "My name is legion, For we are many"

I call Legion "it".

Wellp, the leaked vid confirms it. Legion calls themselves "we". Whether it's refering to the 1,183 programs that make up him, or he just swore allegiance of the entire Geth race to Shepard, we'll see. - 83.13.234.242 18:21, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

This was all before release, but through conversations Legion has with Shepard, I think we're all viewing the term "Geth" incorrectly. A single body is not "a geth." Legion expresses some difficulty trying to word things in a way Shepard would understand when discussing their population. Legion describes the hardware as running over a thousand programs that make up the entity we call Legion. The geth likely refer to themselves as we as there is no individual. As I've come to understand it, imagine that your toaster and fridge are smart enough to optimize their function. Every day, you go to get waffles out of the freezer and toast them. The two appliances are networked and notice they're used in unison on a regular basis. Perhaps the toaster starts to warm up when the freezer is opened, the waffle settings chosen automatically. Because of the network between the two appliances, they've begun to realize that they're part of a kitchen and work together for optimal function. A single geth may be the fridge or the toaster, or it might be the collective unit. The geth don't draw lines about what is an individual, because their intelligence is not a sum of the whole. As far as they may get is to realize that they aren't a single entity, and so use collective pronouns to assist in Shepard's understanding. The geth obviously get what they are, and as a whole understand it. As Legion says, organic communication is inefficient so they're not likely to put a lot of effort into figuring out how to explain it. Greatak 05:58, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Gender Neutral Referencing
It occurred to me that we have been referring to Legion as "he". No evidence has been presented that Legion considers itself male or possesses masculine personality/programming. In fact, Legion refers to itself as "we", likely as a hold-over from it's time in the geth "collective" (although that is pure speculation on my part). So, reworded the article to replace all the he with it, and his with its. Please make sure to make your edits accordingly as well. Also, please make sure one and all to avoid gender-specific references to Shepard (i.e. Shepard and his squad). Thanks, SpartHawg948 09:15, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Legion is a genderless "it." The developers tend to refer to it as "he" because the voice actor is male. At least that's the way I left it. Stormwaltz 02:12, November 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that was pretty much my take on it too. SpartHawg948 05:15, November 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * "He" refers to himself as we wouldnt it be more appropriate to refer to him as "they" (that was the most retarded thing anyone wrote ever)


 * Do what now? Near as I can tell those words were never entered here till you entered them, ralok. Or were you claiming that what you just posted was "the most retarded thing anyone wrote ever"? SpartHawg948 09:11, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ralok, I'm going to ask you for the last time: watch your language when posting. You have already been warned both by myself and by SpartHawg, and those warnings are apparently being ignored. Almost all your edits to talk pages have been combative, if not downright rude. If you're referring to another user's comment as "retarded", that is unacceptable; if you're referring to yourself, given the sentence isn't clear it could cause confusion or offence to other users. If I see this again, you face a ban. --Tullis 15:22, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Now i want an apology i did nothing but make fun of myself for suggesting the article refers to legion as a "the" it might not have been entirely clear but certainly dont think its worth a ban to make fun of oneself, what should be clear though is that i wasnt referring to anybody elses comment as retarded. If i was going to insult another comment i would have done it but i didnt. ralok 04:44, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Bah i dont need an apology, i am just very sad that my sentence was so horribly misinterpreted that it appearently almost got me banned from the webssite. ralok 04:53, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason it was "misinterpreted" is because there was absolutely no precedent or context given for your statement. The first and only time you suggested that the article refer to Legion as "the" was also the sentance on which you stated that it was the most retarded thing ever written. It was hardly clear what you were trying to say. Also, it was not just this one comment that almost got you banned from the website (one s in that word, btw), it was the fact that the statement appeared to be part of a trend of insulting and offensive statements that you have posted, which have, btw, only garnered one apology from you to date (since you brought the topic of apologies up). If you want to avoid having your statements misconstrued, you really need to be more specific. Contrary to your statement, the intent of your initial comment was far from clear. SpartHawg948 07:44, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * i meant to say "they" no the. And i have no idea what your talking about, i wish to continue this conversation elsewhere and not interrupt the legion talk page further. ralok 08:26, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * And please stop pointing out every obvious spelling mistake i make, thats just another way of insulting me, i know those mistakes are there, i have stated that i am a poo typist please do not point out a mistake unless it compimises the entire stucture of my statement. ralok 08:30, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * aaaaannnnndddd i messed up thata paragraph aswell mispelling poor as poo annd using the word another instead of saying, it feels like. I should have said i feel insulted when someone points out my spelling mistake especially when they are mad at me because it feels like tehy are just trying to use every human error to turn me into the living embodiement of evil, thtats the only rational reason if you were trying to get me to be a better persoon and less omeanor rude to everyone around you could have stated the facts cleaarly and calmly, instead you chooose to pick on me for mispelling website. Pretty much doing everything you can to keep me angry without comprimising youself. ralok 08:38, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Ok so I was just looking at this for a little while, and realized the argument about Legion referring to himself as "we". "We" refers to his geth collective platform, which is made up of around 2000 different geth. I refer to Legion as a he because of the masculine build that the geth take on. He may not have any real male personality traits, but the lack of female personality traits and the appearance of a masculine build cause me to refer to him as a male. This is just my own opinion, however, considering I have a tough time not assigning asexual beings a gender.

Squad Member Confirmation
Apparantly, the NowGamer site has been known to post false or speculated information before. Perhaps we should keep the character page, move his characters icon to adversaries, but for now remove any references to him being a squad member until we get more solid confirmation? --TheWilsonator 19:17, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I see why we would remove him being a squad member for now, but I don't think we should automatically call him an adversary. SpartHawg948 21:34, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * In hindsight, maybe the fact that he appears prominently in the Enemies of Mass Effect 2 video does qualify him for adversary... SpartHawg948 07:22, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

At least temporarily, he'll bbe an andversary; I mean, you never know with Mass Effect and BioWare.


 * Just a suggestion, but couldn't we make an "Unknown affiliation" tab for him --MPS Biotic 03:39, January 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's been discussed, because he is the only character who would be put under that tab and also because all "official" media points to him as an adversary, this won't be done.--Xaero Dumort 04:23, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it wouldn't be a practical fix. If it came down to it, it would be preferable to just delete Legion from the Characters page than create a new category, especially in light of the fact that Legion was featured prominently in the "Enemies of Mass Effect" video. SpartHawg948 04:27, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

According to a link on Legion's page, he is now confirmed as a squad member. H-Man Havoc 21:18, January 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * According to the same source that was mentioned two months ago at the start of this thread as not being legitimate. SpartHawg948 21:52, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Source
where the hell did you guys find this guy? I havent heard a thing about this dude.


 * Have you tried referring to either of the two sources clearly listed in the "references" portion of the article? That's always a good place to start if you are wondering about sources! :P SpartHawg948 19:19, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

ME 2 Achievement List
http://www.succesfull.fr/index.php?option=com_succesfull&Itemid=6&l=en&JeuID=594

Well, the confirmation seems to be pretty blatant. The Devs have stated there are 10 members of your squad besides yourself. And in the list there are first 9 achievements for recruiting characters followed by 1 which rewards you for "obtaining geth technology."

Then there are 9 achievements for obtaining character loyalty followed by 1 which rewards you for "hacking a Geth collective" which is called, "A House Divided." That is pretty clearly a reference to Legion being part of a new faction of the geth which the Devs have already stated.


 * Well, there are nine achievements that state "Successfully recruit the..." THAT is confirmation. Then there is one that says "Obtain geth technology". See the difference? Then there are nine that say "Gain the loyalty of the..." THAT is confirmation. Then there is one that says "Hack a geth collective" See the difference? I mean, if we want to count "Obtain geth technology" as confirmation that Legion is a squad member, maybe "Complete the investigation of a derelict alien vessel" (the Ghost Ship achievement) is confirmation of a Reaper squad member. I will give it this: The text says NOTHING, but the images do strongly imply that Legion is a squad member. But until it is STATED, it's speculation. SpartHawg948 21:20, December 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well Legion is technically Geth technology, so obtaining it is just another way of saying you get him/it, isn't it?

It's stated that way to present Legion as an "it" a thing to control or use, not something that you would earn loyalty from.--Xaero Dumort 22:48, December 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well now that doesn't seem to be the case... remember that Legion has learned to think on it's own, so it's very likely that loyalty would be a factor. I mean, we aren't talking about a toaster here. And regardless, they could have said "Acquire the geth..." or something like that. Ans hacking the collective hardly seems indicative, as hacking is something you do to an ENEMY synthetic. Again, I do think it likely now that Legion will be a squad member, but this IS NOT conclusive proof. Nor is the fact, Xaero, that the achievement icon has a picture of a geth. Pretty sure there's more than one geth that looks like that! :P SpartHawg948 00:06, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * Sparthawg, it is pretty much blatantly obvious that Legion will be a squad member at this point. Nobody is saying it is conclusive proof, but Bioware is unlikely to give confirmation about Legion joining you until after the game is out. But they are obviously hinting at it and making the wording of these achievements ambiguous is just a bit of humor. Even if there weren't already sources stating Legion would be a squad member, there hasn't been any information going against Legion being a squad member. The info on Legion has stated that Shepard will need to go confront him to find out what he wants, which sounds a lot more like the mission phrasing used for finding the other squad members than anything else. And no way, a picture of a Geth for an achievement referring to a Geth. Crazy. Really thinking outside the box here. I appreciate the fact that the wiki page should not state that Legion is a squad member, but I think stating that is extremely likely is completely reasonable. Anything Bioware says to the contrary is to keep some mystery to it. By the way, ss there a rule against Bioware employees commenting or editing on this site?

Spart, "Hack the collective" is indicative of Legion. Legion is for all intents an outsourcing of a crop of minds as given by saying "we", so in order to defeat the Collector's who would be a good ally? The geth, Legion is your in to the geth in order to allow a better force to be gained. Loyalty is not a factor for Legion anymore than it was a factor for the droids in KOTOR games, all it took was increased technical skills.(Please correct me if I am wrong here as my memory is a little hazy, but I am pretty sure this was at least the case with HK in KOTOR 1 as each upgrade increased his ability and would only work if I had the skill level to do it.)--Xaero Dumort 20:12, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, let me make this simple. There are pages here on this site where it is either or. Either Legion DEFINITELY IS a squad member, or it isn't. No room for "extremely likely". Perfect example:Characters. What should we do there? Make a new category for "Characters unconfirmed as allies but whom it is completely reasonable to assume will be"? Ditto for Mass Effect 2, and for the Mass Effect 2 squadmates template. What's going to happen (and has happened every time someone has edited that it is "very likely" that Legion will be a squad member) is that other people will go to those "either/or" pages and start editing that Legion IS a squad member, no ifs ands or buts. And they will use the same source that you use to state it is "likely" Legion will be a squad member. All I'm trying to do is keep all that unnecessary editing and the unnecessary undoing that always follows from happening in the first place. Is it really too much to ask that we keep it out of the article till we get concrete confirmation? At most it'll be, what? Another month? SpartHawg948 21:30, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems this may have gotten a little out of hand, I thought we were discussing it, I made no attempts to undo the changes you made to the edits as I feel they were completely justified by you to do (I know you make no mention of the sort of thing, just pointing out I'm not going to go changing things after you have made it clear that you don't think there is enough evidence from the source). I am just trying to say how I feel it points towards. If you agree, ok, If you don't ok. I'm not trying to change your mind Spart so I hope you don't think that, just trying to argue my point. I understand that the whole thing is probably completely frustrating at this point to a degree of loathing for what is happening with edits being made. So I guess, just keep up the, what I am sure is stressful work, you are doing and we'll see in a month or sooner. :)--Xaero Dumort 00:00, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think there was some misunderstanding. I didn't mean that you were undoing anything. I meant that, every time someone edits this page to state that Legion will likely be a squad member, other people make edits to the Characters page, the Mass Effect 2 page, and the ME2 squad members templates stating Legion WILL be a squad member, and then I have to go through and undo all the edits, as those pages are the "either/or" ones I was referring to. SpartHawg948 00:05, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh no, I understood you weren't referencing me in particular lol, I was trying to explain that I understand where you are coming from and I would not go against what you had decided wasn't a credible enough source. I understand the whole thing is just extremely frustrating for you, and I will do what I can to help.--Xaero Dumort 00:08, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair enough! :) Yeah, it's definitely been one of those weeks. I can't wait for January 26th, and not just because I really want to play ME2, but also because hopefully then everything will settle down a bit around here! *fingers crossed* SpartHawg948 00:17, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * And then they'll get crazy again with all the new information that has to be added. :p--Matt 2108 00:25, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * You're probably right. A man can dream, though... :) SpartHawg948 00:45, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

The obtain Geth technology could only be obtaining a Geth Pulse Rifle. LordDeathRay (Comm Chatter)  22:20, January 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * That is a valid point, as it was when I first made it last month. Regardless, the trivia bit does meet all the requirements for speculation, so it was deemed acceptable, as is stated above. Please do not remove it. Thanks, SpartHawg948 22:40, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Legion as a natural progression of geth
I've been replaying ME just one more time and Tali describes the geth neural network as more akin to a sub-conscious and not a hive mind. It seems to me that a hive minded like creature would use "We" while something that just heightens awareness wouldn't cause such a bold proclamation. So maybe Legion is outcast from even the "normal" geth (with possibly others) causing him to identify differently. Thoughts?--Xaero Dumort 08:33, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I think something that had just recently obtained independence (through means unknown) from a larger collective would probably still use "we" to refer to itself. You have to figure, it'd be fairly new to the whole individual thing, and I doubt it would have any sense that using "we" to refer to itself is in any way a "bold proclamation". It'd be only natural to something that had spent the majority of it's existence as part of a linked consciousness, whether that be on the subconscious level or not. SpartHawg948 08:44, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have a thought, how does a mechanical lifeform have a natural evolution. ralok 08:44, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ask the people at BioWare, specifically Casey Hudson. If I'm not mistaken, it was he who referred to Legion as a "natural evolution" of the geth. Remember ralok, you did not create Mass Effect, BioWare did. If they say it's possible for a synthetic (I don't think mechanical is the best term for the geth) lifeform to have a natural evolution, it must be, at least in-game. SpartHawg948 08:47, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I understand the usage of the word actually, and i have no problem with it being used. It was just a passing thought. But invariably I feel that the natural order of The universe is not interrupted by the exsistence of artificial life. And in the fullesr of time that natural order will adapt to accomadate such life.OH NO IM VOICING MY THOUGHTS AGAIN, bad brain. ralok 09:08, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well that was confusing... not sure what word you are referring to (maybe stating the actual word would have helped) and I don't recall anyone stating that the natural order of the universe would be interrupted by artificial life. To the contrary, I think that, quite simply, synthetic life would either adapt to survive in a rough and tumble universe or fall by the wayside, being destroyed or becoming obsolete to the point of irrelevance. Regardless, that's not really the original intent of this thread, now is it? Xaero asked a question, I answered, and then you started on a tangent... SpartHawg948 09:20, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Evolution is adaptation at its most necessary level. Regardless of whether or not they are organic or inorganic, at a certain point there is something that will say, adapt or die. Now the only factor would be, is becoming capable of individuality the next logical step for the geth to have a chance to survive, perhaps even joining the galactic community at large or is Legion in fact a mutation? Errant coding that should have never been allowed to compile? A collection of data that thought scrapped somehow got dumped and loaded into Legion. Wouldn't be the first time that an AI reached a point it wasn't supposed to. Such as rampancy in Halo AI or the necessity of data dumps in Star Wars to stop quirky behavior as best seen in T3-M4 or R2-D2.--Xaero Dumort 09:39, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would vote for the latter. I think this isn't some sort of collective-wide thing, but rather an aberration on Legion's part, likely as a result of damage (probably from the same incident that caused the gaping hole in its chest). Perhaps some sort of connection to the collective was severed, or, and I find this theory more intruiging, maybe it was some sort of inhibitor that was taken out. Something like a Star Wars restraining bolt, or in a better analogy, something like the neural inhibitors in the Cylon Centurions in the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica, which kept them servile and incapable of independent thought. That's my take on this, although it should be noted that it's purely speculative. I can hope though! :) SpartHawg948 09:57, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * You have an excellent point, what exactly is the purpose of this evolution. Why do they need to be independent. And how could a machine have a mutation if such a thing is possible. Maybe the gaping hole in his chest has something to do with it, that happened in a star wars comic a damaged battle droid went rogue. And is his obsession with shepard part of this evolution or his own individuality. And why is his name legion if he is and individual. And does he actually refer to himself as we or is that an assumption by the community. And hwo long has he been like this. 3 weeks, just 3 weeks. I CANT STAND IT, dear god help me this three weeks will be hte end of me. (my thoughts started trailing off again) ralok 10:04, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I hate it when i comment on something and someone else has already commented saying some of the stuff i was saying in my comment that i was about to comment. (my brain hurts) Why are any of you awake anyways, its like five in the morning (in michigan),
 * This may come as a shock, but not all of us live in Michigan (thank God), which means it's not 5 in the morning for all of us, which means that asking why anyone is awake is pointless, as just because it's a certain time where you are, doesn't mean it's the same time where other people are. SpartHawg948 10:12, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

You my friend are an incredibly lucky individual, the U.P. aint so ba but down were i live its is indeed a terrfying place. I just gave it alot of thought and i think i just realized that leegions purpose in the game is to serve as a meter for morality. My theory is that his injusry is what caused him to be individual, and his obsession with shepar is because he thinks of shepard as the perfect example of an individual, so legions behavior in the game may reflect your own. That would be interesting. ralok 10:32, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's an excellent idea about his obsessive reasoning ralok. And I live in Missouri, so not too far off from you, yet just far enough. And it is becoming almost impossible to wait. Playing Mass Effect again is my only saving grace, making sure every decision is the one I want it to be. And one last time to glitch out the paragon/renegade bars and max them. I'm interested to see how ME2 handles that, but I always have the paragon end visuals, blue and saving the council, cuz my decisions are mostly paragon, so...--Xaero Dumort 18:39, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well shepard is always in a way good, he is never really "evil" healways beleives in what he is doing. But if you walk the line beetween paragon and renegade i assume that he gets really confused at contradictory behavior. And another htought on legion if he was my geth friend, i would nail a spare panel over that gaping hole,or at least tape a peice ofpaper over it. ralok 21:05, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just want to interject that you can't say someone isn't evil just because they always believe in what they are doing, or believe in the justness of their cause. Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Pol Pot, the 9/11 hijackers, they all believed in what they were doing, and I don't think that made them any less evil. Honestly, the renegade/paragon thing seems most of the time to coming down to either doing the right thing or the convenient thing. Good example is Feros. The right thing to do is use the anti-Thorian gas, which saves the colonists. The convenient thing to do is to not waste time and just gun the colonists down. The renegade choices, while they may or may not be inherently evil (like genocide and gunning down colonists who could be saved) basically are along the school of thought that says the ends justify the means, while the paragon choices reject that notion. SpartHawg948 22:00, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * You have an excellent point SpartHawg, but I should clarify. I was reffering strictly to the first games common ending, the defeat of sovereign and saren. No matter how you do it, you kick butt and save the galaxy. And the entire time it was his goal to do this, and he always beleived that he was saving the galaxy. I should have explained it better, i will make a better effort next time. ralok 22:16, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed you do kick butt regardless, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you are not committing evil in furtherance of the greater good. It's possible to do all kinds of evil things while working towards a noble cause, which is pretty much what happens if you do a straight renegade playthrough. Belief in your cause is largely irrelevant, and in some cases actually makes the situation worse and drives a person to greater evil, in that belief in a cause can lead to fanaticism. SpartHawg948 22:41, January 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * also a good point, reagardless, All sentient life in hte galaxy isnt exteerminated, and thats something. However i am a firm beleiver in the idea that there is fates worse than death. Hmmmmmmmmm, maybe i should think things through before i say them. ralok 22:56, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Ilos?
Is the planet you encounter Legion on is Ilos? Because it looks a lot like it. LordDeathRay (Comm Chatter)  22:15, January 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * I dought it Ilos isn't cited as a main planet in this game, and i don't see any reason why it should be. The only thing it has is the conduit. (That doesn't preclude the possibility that the conduit might be in this game, I just find it highly unlikely from BioWare to put that plot device in two games) http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mass_Effect_2 --MPS Biotic 21:24, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he's there to destroy the Conduit, to stop the Reapers from returning. LordDeathRay (Comm Chatter)  21:31, January 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think they'll even mention the conduit aside from a passing one --MPS Biotic 22:14, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Well anyways, that planet looks like Ilos. Am I right or am I wrong? LordDeathRay (Comm Chatter)  23:18, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * What planet are you talking about? Do you have a picture?--Matt 2108 00:06, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

The planet where you see Legion on. LordDeathRay (Comm Chatter)  21:12, January 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * In the enemies trailer? --MPS Biotic 21:52, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Yes. LordDeathRay (Comm Chatter)  20:02, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

I'd think the council would have a presance on Ilos considering it is a backdoor onto their station... They got bit on the ass from there before and would be stupid to leave it unguarded from then on unless of course they just destroyed the conduit..


 * But you do realize, don't you, that they can't have a presence on Ilos? For the very same reason that they didn't want Shepard to travel to Ilos. Ilos is located in the Terminus Systems. Any move into the Terminus Systems by the Citadel (such as establishing a presence on Ilos, would trigger a war between the Citadel races and the Terminus Systems, and the Council made it clear on multiple occasions that they were not going to risk such a thing. SpartHawg948 03:12, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

But it's a little more important now than visions in Shepard's mind it's a CONFIRMED threat and even more so because its in the potentially hostile Terminus Systems. I guess it would just be easier to just smash their end of the conduit or something but then who cares about Ilos other than archaeologists.
 * True, but again, to send forces to Ilos, they would have to trigger a war with the Terminus Systems. And while the Citadel's military forces were severely weakened when Sovereign and the geth attacked, there are no indications that the Terminus forces are any weaker than they were when the Citadel refused to risk a war before they lost so many of their ships in battle. So if anything, they're less likely to send forces now. And they do know it's a threat, which is why they could simply take the precaution of stationing extra security around the exit, or just removing the exit beacon in the Citadel and throwing it out into space. SpartHawg948 03:37, January 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah well like I said, I guess it would be easier to just wreck their end of the connection but I suppose it could make sense that Legion is a geth you "killed" on Ilos hence its chest-hole and fascination with you. maybe thats why it made its place there, but then it would be just as possible to be any other planet you killed geth on. Whatever, lets just wait a week and a half and see for ourselves : P

Alright. But it looks like Ilos. Right? LordDeathRay (Comm Chatter)  13:34, January 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Go watch the trailer again dude, it looks absolutely nothing like Ilos. Apart from the fact there is zero stone and zero vegetation and is a different colour scheme, there's noticeable mechanical structures and large cylinders bearing the Cerberus logo. JakePT 15:07, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

I noticed that 3 hours ago. I tryed to put that in on this talk page but my computer crashed. LordDeathRay (Comm Chatter)  16:16, January 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * But 3 hours prior to your last post was 18 minutes before you posted a message here still claiming it did look like Ilos! Which one is it? I'm so confused! :P SpartHawg948 20:57, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

I don't pay attention to time that much (besides the countdown when I get my Mass Effect 2). It seemed like 3 hours. Ok! LordDeathRay (Comm Chatter)  01:25, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok! (wait, why are we using exclamation points?) SpartHawg948 01:28, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Launch Trailer: more evidence?
The newest trailer for ME2 (The Launch Trailer) has a split second shot of Tali pointing a pistol at Legion's head, in surroundings that appear different from the "Enemies" trailer. Also, Legion does not have the sniper rifle that he had in the earlier trailer. Perhaps this is one of the "many" encounters that Bioware said that Cmdr. Shepard might be having, but I doubt it. I guess we find out in 5 days....

John117XL 07:15, January 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * More evidence of what? SpartHawg948 07:16, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

My bad. I meant to say, more evidence of him being a team member, but I missed writing it. John117XL 14:40, January 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hm... nope. No evidence at all, really. It's just an encounter. Tophvision 16:00, January 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah. So let's see what this more evidence of it being a squad member is: It has been shown with a different gun than the one it had originally, and it is appears in a different location. If that were evidence, than the logical conclusion prior to the original game would have been that Saren was going to be a squad member. He too had only been portrayed as an enemy, and was shown in multiple locations with different weapons. We need some actual evidence. SpartHawg948 21:29, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Just confirmed via live stream, he is, infact a squadmate.
 * Ok... where's the source? SpartHawg948 00:49, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not the poster of the orignal live stream comment, but a link (Spoilers, obviously) to Legion's recruitment is here - http://www.justin.tv/clip/cadf6901823c6456. I preumse that qualifies as proof, if taken as a whole with every other piece we've seen (Upto and including the squad selection screenshot also posted on this page somewhere). However, given this is leaked info, i'd assume that any editing to confirm he's a squad member should be done after the offical release date, yes? 123.100.104.9 13:07, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Tali vs Legion?
I just had a thought. We have a good sense of how the quarians veiw the geth due to Tali's own opinion of them. Assuming that the geth feel similar (highly likely), and from the scene in the launch trailer in which Tali is pointing her pistol at what we can assume is Legion's head (by his just standing there and not shooting at her on sight), is it possible that in taking Legion into the team (provided he is a squad member), will trigger an arguement with Tali and Legion where they say something akin to: "As long as Tali/lLegion is on this vessel, I won't be." ?
 * I'm sure that if you have Tali's full loyalty, you'll be able to get her to go along with it for the sake of the mission. At least I hope so. Matt 2108 01:17, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

I hope so, too. Tali is by far my favorite female character (praying she's a romance option this time arond, but that's an arguement for another page) and Legion would give an amazing insight into the geth culture (like that temple on Feros)
 * Full agreement on the romance. But anyways, I think it depends. If you play Paragon, Tali owes you the world. I can see her going with you in that case. Playing Renegade, though; she might consider having to room with a geth the last straw. Maybe she'll learn something about them, though. Heck, how you treat Legion himself may lead to geth allies in the last game. So who knows; play your cards right, you might keep them both. Tahaneira 04:21, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is, of course, all presupposed on the theory that Legion will be a squad member, a theory for which there is no proof. It is, after all possible to put a gun to someone's head without then having to recruit them to join you. I seem to recall pulling a gun on a few people in ME who didn't become squad members, and only having to pull a gun on a squad member once, after he had joined. SpartHawg948 04:24, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. He doesn't have to be a squad member. All that has to happen for this to occur is for Shepard to voluntarily allow Legion onto the ship, which is definitely possible. Paragon Shepard seems to be more willing to trust past enemies than most, and Legion may have information that Renegade Shepard would want. Tahaneira 04:31, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was going off the first person's theory, which is presupposed on Legion being able to be recruited. SpartHawg948 04:32, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Legion Confirmed
Here is your confirmation: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2j6u0n&s=6 Inverness 07:59, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Looks valid to me, but its on a photo-sharing website. Anyone could have made that. Jake200493 08:06, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'd rather wait till a source arises that isn't from a website of this nature. While this does look pretty valid, as Jake200493 (lots of numbers there) says, it is a photo-sharing website, so any of those darn photo-shoppers could be responsible. Rascally kids and their computers! :P SpartHawg948 08:10, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * You people are annoyingly hard to please. Here is further proof:


 * http://inverness.dreamhosters.com/images/Legion03.jpg


 * http://inverness.dreamhosters.com/images/Legion04.jpg


 * Inverness 08:14, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'm plenty pleased, it's just that I need a credible source before I (in my capacity as an admin) will allow new info like this into articles. We do have standards to maintain around here. As for annoying, nothing more annoying for an admin than a deluge of people putting unsourced or improperly sourced info into articles, which is why standards for these things are so exacting. As for the further proof, again, I'm unconvinced as to the source (ie this Dreamhost site), and while the first image would work (provided the source is good) the second is not proof of squad member status, it's just proof you talk to Legion at some point. There are I don't even know how many NPCs you talk to in ME that aren't squadmembers. SpartHawg948 08:18, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Both of those images were taken by myself, I hosted them on my own webspace because I do not need to use free image uploading sites as I pay for my own. Is this still not sufficient? Inverness 08:40, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I... would be very reluctant to accept them, let's just say that much. Firstly, as I said above, the second picture is not even close to any sort of confirmation that Legion is a squad member, any more than a screenshot of Shepard talking to Donnel Udina would be proof that he is a squad member. As for the second one, no offense, but if I produced an image of a forthcoming game that represented something that had been rather hotly contested, and had no other solid confirmation other than the purported screenshot, would you take it at face value as proof, or would you be somewhat skeptical? SpartHawg948 08:44, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * :: Come on this pictures just confirmed what we all already knew, Legion is a squad member, where's the big deal, okay it's not an official screenshort from bioware but still, it seems really really valid... Cyphius 08:49, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems really really valid, eh? So did the NowGamer article that was used several months ago as a source for Legion being a squad member, right up until we found out that they had a nasty habit of passing speculation and, even worse, information they KNEW TO BE FALSE, as fact. Just because something looks "really really valid", doesn't mean we're going to take it without considering the source. We pride ourselves here on factual accuracy, which is why we like to make sure something is fact before we say it is. To do otherwise would be... well, pretty dishonest. (can't call it unprofessional, as this isn't really a profession!) SpartHawg948 08:53, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would not consider Legion's recruitability to be hotly--or smartly--contested. All the evidence I have observed so far as pointed towards it: achievement list, soundtrack, identical cover poses in screenshots, Sci vs Fi part 2, and the launch trailer. I have failed to see any logic in the arguments made against him. Additionally, this rich text editor is infuriating. Inverness 09:02, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if you peruse the page history for the main article (as well as the Mass Effect 2 page) it'll become apparent that it was hotly contested. Now, let's see: Achievements list- the one that specifically has achievements for recruiting several different characters, but not for recruiting Legion, saying instead "obtain geth tech" which could easily be a rifle, or Legion's severed head? The Sound Track- there is one other character who has a track but is not a squad member (the Illusive Man) and one squad member who does not have a track (Zaeed Messani). Cover poses in screenshots- I'd need to see the screenshots... just saying they are out there isn't evidence. Sci vs Fi- saw it, didn't see any confirmation of Legion as a squad member. Was there a particular moment you are referring to? If so let me know and I can either pull it up online or go to the living room and fire it up on the DVR and have a look. Launch Trailer- again, no confirmation. Tali pulled a gun on Legion. So? Shep pulled guns on people in ME w/out it automatically meaning they were squad members. Anything else? SpartHawg948 09:10, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

It's great to have high standard for a wiki, I respect that, but since we have confirmation of legion being a squad mate coming from both leaked screenshot of people having the game AND press articles AND the fact that the achievement deeply implies this possibility too, I say it's safe to assume that yes, legion is confirmed a a squadmember. (and sorry for my possible grammar mistakes, I'm not a native english speaker) Cyphius 09:06, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * As I state above, and several other places on this page, the achievement is not confirmation in and of itself. If it was, why is it the only one that is not for "recruiting" the individual? Press releases? Do they have links, because if so, I've not seen them anywhere on this site, and that's saying something, as generally when someone sees one of these, this site is their first stop. Leaked screenshot- again, it's not really a legit source. We don't "assume" here, safe assumption or no. SpartHawg948 09:12, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have figured out how to produce video clips from the content that was streamed on the site I captured the screenshots from. I will have video evidence to prove Legion's recruitment shortly. Inverness 09:16, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * And here it is, video evidence. Inverness 09:20, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Whatev... I guess I'll just have to take your word for it, as I think I'm about to take an anti-spoiler leave of absence. If the video is legit though, it will be the first piece of hard proof (well, maybe the second, as that would make one of the two screenshots kosher) that Legion is a squad member, as I pretty well shot the others down above as circumstantial at best. Regardless, I hope you realize I wasn't trying to be difficult, just doing my job as an admin (as my recent edits to Romance and Tali'Zorah nar Rayya demonstrate). It'd just be nice if people could keep that in mind before going off on me, or getting attitudes or whatnot. I'm just doing my best to make this a great wiki for you people and everyone else who wants to stop by. SpartHawg948 09:29, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry about dumping my frustration on you. In fact I didn't even know you were an admin. If I had, I would have better understood your reluctance to accept what I provided as evidence. Inverness 09:34, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Huh. And here I was thinking that I'd made it pretty obvious when I said in my second post in this thread (the immediate response to your "You people are annoyingly hard to please..." screenshot post), which was left over an hour ago, "it's just that I need a credible source before I (in my capacity as an admin) will allow new info like this into articles." I guess I'll have to try and make it more obvious next time. Maybe bold, with italics, maybe some bright colors... I'll look into that. :P SpartHawg948 09:36, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Teaser Trailer
Jesus this rich text editor is unhelpful. Anyway. Moved this here to avoid an edit war.

Anyways. I'm referring to the very last trailer on http://masseffect.bioware.com/media/videos/3. The Teaser trailer. The very first one. It shows, in order:


 * A planescape (unrelated)


 * A pan-up over an Alliance issue assault rifle. Notice the conveniently blurred background.


 * A pan-up over a piece of armor that seems to be the shoulder armor of a Medium human armor.


 * A pan-side of human armor chestplate, marked with Shepard's trademark N7


 * The bloodied gouge and the hole busted straight through


 * A zoom-out from that same chestplate, showing that it's not on Shepard, but on Legion. The shoudler armor is visible in this shot.


 * Legion looking at and headbutting the camera.

Note that during all this, we're treated to a file on Shepard, leading to the thought that the pieces of Shepard's armor are, in fact, on Shepard. They're not. Those are in fact the pieces Legion incorporated into himself, creatively cropped to make that illusion. Legion doesn't just appear at the end of the teaser, he is the only character, nearly the only thing, to be show in the entire teaser. Based on this, and with lack of any evidence or even anything to suggest that the subject changes between the shoulder and chest shot, or the assault rifle and shoudler shot (note that Legion in the Enemies video is shown using an Alliance issue sniper rifle, not the pulse sniper rifle favored by Geth snipers!), I say that the entry be changed from "at the end of" to "in", as per my reverted edits. - 149.156.96.15 12:45, January 22, 2010 (UTC)



The spirit of the teaser is that it brings about the illusion that the armour and assault rifle are in fact Shephard's. The twist being that they are not, only having watched the trailer, and with current knowledge, do we know that it is in fact Legion and not a) Shephard, or b) a Geth who has killed him and is standing over his kit. In keeping with the spirit of the teaser, he only appears at the end. Had you never seen the trailer, nor known anything about Legion, you would have made the same conclusions. Phylarion 12:52, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

149.156.96.15 here - Actually, no, with those conclusions I would have went "WTF was that?", then watched it a few more times to see if I can make any sense of it, then just settle on "I can't" and wait for more information to be revealed. Which, actually, is exactly what I did. B) is the interpretation most would go with (I know I did), but the fact he's wearing Shephard's armor is kinda self-evident. The fact whether I would have made those conclusions or not is irrelevant anyway. The trailer, the entirety of the trailer after the planetscape shows Legion. It's a fact, not an observation. Not just the end. - 83.13.234.242 14:53, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds to me like you still only saw him at the end of the trailer the first time round. You still had to watch it the first time, and then after that, once you know what's going to happen, you can't view the trailer in the same mental state as you did the first time round, because now you've begun to process what you've just seen. The viewpoint expressed in the trivia is from the viewpoint of someone who has seen the trailer the first time - it accommodates to EVERYONE, first-time viewer or die-hard Mass Effect fan. Saying 'ZOMG It's Legion' so blatantly will ruin it for people who've never seen it before. It's not a stupidity or obviousness issue, it's the fact it's not just fans who've been keeping fully up to date with everything who will use this wiki. Phylarion 15:29, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Then toss the whole thing. Or change it to 'appears'. Because last I checked this wiki has a hard-on for confirmed facts, and right now, the entry is erroneous. Because worded as it is now, it'll only cause confusion in a viewer who goes to check it out, expecting to see Legion standing above the commander's corpse or similar, and further the impression that there was a focus change in the meanwhile. - 83.13.234.242 15:41, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

A better suggestion indeed. Phylarion 15:42, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Movement to Squad Member Section
Well, I watched the video proving that Legion is indeed the 10th squadmember, so isn't it about time that we move this page to the Squad Member section? I mean, unless somebody seriously wants to suggest that the entire video was faked. Der Schreiber 17:06, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Pronoun standarization?
Since we know Legion refers to themselves as "we", I think we should find a way to standarize refering to them via pronouns and whatnot. Personally, I'm in favor of referring to them wit the plural pronoun combined with singular verbs, as in the preceding sentence. My reasoning is that since Legion is a noun in the singular, constructs such as "legion refer" feel very clunky. Thoughts? - 83.13.234.242 18:49, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it's reasonable to refer to the physical unit in the singular, but to refer to the thousand or so geth cooperating to make it function in the plural - so "Legion shoots husks behind Shepard" but "the geth try to come to a consensus over the Heretics' virus." Steviesteveo 00:15, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

10th character
Legion is the 10th character you recruit, played through enough of the game so far to get there. Consider it 100% confirmed. Legion's name is actually given to it by EDI, who quotes a Bible verse from the book of Mark (forgot the verse number, didn't think to write it down) in reference to the geth being numerous but one.

Notes on Legion
After completing my first playthrough, I checked up on the Legion page and noted it was drastically different from what I've observed about Legion ingame. Mixed feelings about updating wiki page. Decided to list notes here.
 * Legion is not a Geth that is "seperate from the neural network", nor has it learned to think on its own. Legion is a collection of 1144 processes (573+571, stated during his loyalty mission), which are all Geth. Legion "itself" is the mobile platform that those Geth reside in. The Geth are for all intents and purposes one identity, though seperate processes and mobile platforms that process data individually and try to reach consensus. Legion has said that for example, one mobile platform may see a different perspective of a situation than another, and act differently in turn.
 * Legion's obsession with Commander Shepard is not so much an obsession as it appears to be a goal of the Geth, in that he opposes the heretics and Old Machines. It sees "Shepard-Commander" (as it refers to him/her) as a potential ally of sorts.
 * Tali is not at odds with Legion's being on the team entirely, but it did access her omni-tool and discovered information regarding the planned retaking of the Quarian homeworld, and planned to upload the information. It was concerned about the attack of the "Creators", as it calls the Quarians, and refers to Tali as "Creator Tali'Zorah". The situation can be resolved with either a charm or intimidate option, should your score be high enough, or telling one or the other to back off. I did not test to see what happens if you tell one to back off, though I assume they leave the squad.

The above in the section is all I have to add about Legion. An interesting character, though I was hoping he would be more snarky, as HK-47 was. Oh well. ParasolWaddleDee 06:39, January 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, it's an interesting look at the geth. You learn from Tali in the first game that the geth can work together to be more effective in groups but I think everyone assumed that one (1) geth is what you've been shooting at. The idea that one geth is a process and the things you are shooting at are mobile devices that hold hundreds of geth and they work together inside each of the units you fight is quite a revelation.


 * Legion is connected to the neural network, although you sensibly have to give EDI permission to let him through the firewall to do that. That's how he can play the recording to you, he downloads it. All geth can work independently of the neural network but they benefit from being connected. Steviesteveo 00:10, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I dont know, it seems to me that legion was built with the specified number of processors in order to be able to operate away from the geth, as it states that it is the only non heretical geth platform that is operating outside of the vail. Also when questioned it is unable to produce an explination on why it sought out Shepard's armor for its repair when other means of repair might have been faster.

Steviesteveo Sure, this is not incompatible with my statement. Tali does say geth are more effective in groups, she just doesn't say what a geth is. 21:12, February 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * There seems to be an error in regarding Legion's numbers, as it states that 1138 programs are currently running on it, which prompts EDI to suggest Legion as a name. However, during its loyalty mission Legion states that 573 identities favor rewriting the geth with 571 favor destroying the station, leading to a total of 1144.


 * 24.136.33.161 01:31, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not Necessarily an error. 'they' did state that 1138 programs are currently running on it. He could have anywhere between 1144 to 2010 programs, with only 1138 programs active at the time they stated such to EDI. On his loyalty mission, more programs may have become active with a few still in 'sleep', Or what counts for sleep among the geth. AlexMcpherson 07:58, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

sudo
Was I half asleep when I played Legion's loyalty mission, or did anyone else catch this? When you tell him to hack the rocket turrets, most of the time he gives you some standard acknowledgement. However, I heard him say something (very vaguely) along the lines of 'executing sudo on target'. Somewhat obscure Unix joke FTW... UERD 10:22, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yep he does say that. I just corrected the explination on the fuction of of the sudo command.


 * For those who are uninitiated in the UNIX world the sudo command is used to have the computer execute a command as root wihtout the local user logging in as root. Running around with root premissions is about as safe as carpentry with a sledgehammer. 24.136.33.161 01:14, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Is it spelled "sudo" or "pseudo"? Ech0six 21:36, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * "sudo". It's a later complement to the "su" (switch user) command, typically used to run programs with system admin privileges, but in theory as any other user. --vom 14:43, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Dialog Mistake with Legion
Anyone notice this? When Legion is talking about Sovereign, he mentions a quote that Sovereign spoke to Shepard "when he met Sovereign on Ilos"... but Shepard didn't meet Sovereign on Ilos - that was Virmire! Whoops! Looks like Bioware flubbed there. --WarlockSoL 05:30, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Everyone makes mistakes. Try to forget about it. :P Ech0six 22:59, February 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah. Legion is wrong. BioWare made a pretty big (story-wise) mistake there. But we know better :D Kkmic 00:27, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Trivia
Legion's trivia section is totally out of control. Are there any specific guidelines as to what actually counts as "trivia"? Matt 2108 04:14, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Natural meaning of the word:


 * 1) "insignificant trifles of little importance, especially items of unimportant information"
 * This doesn't suggest a relevance threshold really exists Steviesteveo 21:18, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Loyalty Mission Trivia
After Legion's loyalty mission, you can question him about your decision to either destroy the heretics or rewrite them. He mentions that geth always try to reach a concensus before deciding on anything. I take that as meaning Bioware didn't make a mistake about the remaining 39 programs, but that by the time you reached the terminal, they still hadn't decided. Ech0six 23:51, February 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * You can't "reach consensus" with yourself. The reaching a consensus means between the multiple geth programs present in Legion. They end up narrowly (by a dozen or so, IIRC) deciding one way or the other but it's not a conclusive decision and there's a lot of disagreement so there's not consensus. The individual geth programs are totally able to decide what they think individually but they communicate among large numbers of geth to try to reach consensus. Steviesteveo 21:24, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Which came first, the chic.. the damage or the repair ?
Legion says that the hole came from a rifle shot on Eden Prime (one hell of a rifle I have to say), and that he repaired it with Shepards old N7 armor, propably recovered from the crash site of the old Normandy. But the damage on his chest clearly shows that the hole came after the N7 armor was added. Have I missed something, or is it just Bioware being lazy, again ? JohnEdwa 01:02, February 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's possible the armor was already damaged when he grafted it (maybe the actual hole was much larger?). Otherwise, he could have been lying - when asked *why* he picked Shepard's armor he suddenly becomes extremely tight-lipped. --WarlockSoL 17:57, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Accidental content deletion?
I'm really not sure if I did this, but I very recently edited the Trivia section of this page, under the "humourous dialogue" subsection. I added a little anecdote about bringing Legion to the Council meeting. A few minutes later, I went back and tried to link the word "Council" to the actual page, but it didn't work, and I ended up canceling the changes. All of a sudden, all the of the examples of humourous dialogue with Legion in the party is gone. I don't think I caused this, but if I did, I'm sorry.

68.146.242.92 06:27, February 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Nope. If you take a look at the history, and read the edit summary I left when I removed that content, you will find it was most certainly not deleted accidentally, nor was it deleted by you. SpartHawg948 06:29, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * On that subject, how about a Legion\Unique Dialog page that details the locations of unique dialog? Or perhaps promote it to a section that can be added to any character with unique dialog? (Tali, Zaede, etc.) I don't know about anyone else, but I want to have a record of where all the unique interactions are.—ErzengelLichtes (Contribs) 01:59, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * As I've said before many times in many places, at this time the admins are pretty adamantly opposed to "dialogue articles", but if you want to start a Legion quotes page in the Forums, feel free. SpartHawg948 02:05, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please calm down. I was simply making a suggestion. It is not possible to read everything you write, that is why I suggested it and did not create it. I do not feel that "forums" would be the proper place for informational articles, Forums should be places for discussion. It was my understanding that Wikis were places where information would be stored and disseminated. If the admins feel differently, that is their purgative. Also, just in an attempt to dissuade you from additional tirades towards me, I want to make it clear that I was simply explaining my suggestion. I do not mean to provoke you.—ErzengelLichtes (Contribs) 02:18, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Calm down? I'm afraid that's impossible, as I'd first have to be agitated in order to calm down. I was merely stating that this is something I've said before (and I don't doubt I'll have to say it again). Please do not attempt to read too deeply into comments. I would, however, appreciate not being accused of going on "tirades" towards anybody when nothing could be further from the truth. If you would like me to go on a tirade so you can see what one looks like, I'll see if I can't work up some righteous indignation, but as you A) didn't provoke me in the least, and B) I didn't get worked up at all, thereby negating the need for me to "calm down", I think we can put this matter to bed. In the future, please don't read too much into my comments. I mean my statements to be taken at face value, so if I were to go on a tirade, you would know. SpartHawg948 02:24, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a note: One who is not agitated usually does not spend almost 1,000 characters explaining that they are not agitated. I will say nothing more on the issue.—ErzengelLichtes (Contribs) 02:29, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Now, as for the substantive part of your comment (and I will be dissecting your points and offering my own, dissenting, opinion. I hope this too is not misinterpreted as a tirade! :P) Any useful information from the dialogue is extracted and inserted into the relevant sections of the articles. Displaying the quotes in their entirety is, therefor, what I refer to as "gee-whiz information" (not sure if there are other common terms that are synonymous). It's presented solely for entertainment value, as the relevant information is already in the article. It is also opinion driven, as everyone has their own favorite quotes. Eventually, with everyone adding their own favorite quotes the page becomes rather large and unwieldy. Add to this the fact that Mass Effect does not have a "dialogue transcript" system, like many other games (example- Dragon Age: Origins) have, meaning that many quotes will be transcribed from memory, and it will therefor be difficult, at best, to ensure accuracy. As for the purpose of Forums, they are places for discussion and for opinions, and dialogue pages do tend to become opinion-driven rather quickly. Hope this breakdown helped. SpartHawg948 02:36, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I see you have misinterprited what I am suggesting. I do not suggest quotes, as those are, as you put it, "gee wiz information". I suggest locations only. As in, "Legion has unique dialog when talking to Captain Anderson." No statements as to what that unique quote is, simply that it exists in that location. This will allow viewers to visit these sections with these characters to view the actual scene. For example, I was not aware it was possible to obtain Legion without recruiting Tali until I saw that you could bring Legion for unique dialog. I therefore went and figured out how to obtain Legion prior to Tali, and did so to view the unique dialog. Thus I believe this to be valuable information that should be included in the Wiki itself in some way, shape, or form. That is my suggestion, and accompanying explanation.—ErzengelLichtes (Contribs) 02:44, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * But again, that is "gee whiz information". It doesn't contribute anything factual to this article, which is a character bio and plot summary. Telling people that there are unique dialogue options at such-and-such a place with such-and-such a person may be interesting, but contributes nothing factual, and will still result in the trivia sections getting unwieldy. It's perfect material for the forums though. Being included in the forums is still being included in the wiki, as the forums are part of this wiki. SpartHawg948 02:55, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, I'm not agitated, I just don't appreciate being accused of going off on tirades towards people when I've done nothing of the sort. Sorry if I want my words and positions represented accurately. Apparently, my disliking being misrepresented is something of a character flaw. SpartHawg948 02:36, February 16, 2010 (UTC)