Talk:Donnel Udina

Udina, when he acts so charismatic and pro-human at the end of the game, if the council has perished, you are a renegade, and you nominate him as the chair, he reminds me a lot of Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. 65.188.241.8 22:38, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

How do I shot jerk?
I'm told it's possible to give this guy the Manuel treatment. How? I thought the renegade option when he grounds you is the way... --Skarmory The PG 18:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Anderson punches him if you let him make the decision about how to get you off the Citadel, or tell him to go to Udina's office. --Tullis 19:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Been there, done that. Or have I misheard that you can do it to him too? - Skarmory The PG 21:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's just wishful thinking... : ) --Tullis 22:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahh hell yeh, I am a Capt. Anderson supporter to the end! There were several occasions even as a Paragon I wanted to kneecap Udina :)--LeathamGrant 23:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Quote TVTropes: "And in any case, Udina is a major Jerkass. In one of the Renegade options, Shepard gets fed up and literally punches him out... and not even his assistant calls him out." - Skarmory The PG 01:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I remember seeing that on TVTropes. I usually play as a Paragon but I never saw it during my Renegade playthrough. Maybe the trope poster has got Udina mixed up with Manuel and Dr Warren, because Udina doesn't have an assistant. --Tullis 16:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Appearance in Mass Effect 2
I think he'll appear in the game if the player chose him instead of Capt. Anderson at the end of ME1, but what if Anderson was chosen? Would Udina make an appearance, (hopefully as a washed up drunkard) in the 2nd game or is it as if he'll be "struck" from existence? H-Man Havoc 12:17, January 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Washed up drunkard? Why all the loathing for Udina on this page? I personally liked him. I hope that, if he doesn't get picked as the Councilor at the end of ME (it's just ME for Mass Effect, as the game is Mass Effect, not Mass Effect 1) he turns to elective politics and gets a gig as a member of the Alliance Parliament. He's a real straight shooter, that Udina. His goals are advancing humanity and beating the crap out of it's enemies, and I can respect that! SpartHawg948 12:25, January 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, we'll see. Udina was decent at his job, but to me he was an obsolete character as soon as Shepard became a Spectre. My 2nd playthrough I did kill the council and chose Udina, just to see how it would be. H-Man Havoc 13:53, January 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Udina could probably have been an undercover operative from Cerberus, simply speculation. H-Man Havoc 13:54, January 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I hope so. On my renegade path i grew to respect him time after time. Once I saw his reaction after destroying the Council and favoring him as the new Council's chairman... I regretted having told him that nobody sells me out. He's too freaking awesome.Baron Von Awesome 20:16, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Shrewd and pragmatic? Really?
Udina is anything but shrewd. Consider: So, what good is he? How the heck did he become the ambassador? Well, consider Anderson's line from the sequel. "He has his uses. He knows who to talk to in order to get things done."
 * 1) He spends most of his time whinging about your decisions. Even when golden opportunities present themselves, he's too busy complaining about all the work he has to do to 'clean up your messes' that he never seems to look for opportunities. In the end, it's either Shepard or the Council who point out the chance for Shepard to become a Spectre in order to pursue Saren. Udina seems to have never even thought of it.
 * 2) He's a whiny, uncharismatic toad. This is a man who's never learned the concept of give and take. Instead, he petulantly stomps his foot and clenches his fist and never seems to notice nobody is impressed.
 * 3) He's arrogant as all get out. When, once, even once, does he ever take someone else's advice? He's supremely arrogant and convinced he knows all the answers. Good politicians learn to trust their advisors, but form their own judgements. He forms his own judgements without once considering any advice.

He's a bureaucrat.

Udina is clearly a very good bureacrat, with lousy decision making ability (which we see amply demonstrated) but a capacity to make sure others orders get done. Were he an assistant to a more capable politican, he'd make their career. (Despite his frustrations, I have a feeling that a Councillor Anderson would be remembered fondly by historians.) But he's been promoted above his level of competence, and as a politician himself, he's awful, and we can pretty plainly see just how awful he is through two games. -- JackSlack 22:25, March 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Um, what are you talking about? ralok 23:25, March 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * (i am dumb) dude, your opinion doesnt really have much of a place on a wiki that deals solely on the facts presented by bioware, and if they say something that is difinitive, if his actions say otherwise then that is because they wanted to give oyu false expectations of the character. ralok 23:27, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * What is unclear? I'm expressing amusement and dissatisfaction with the description of Udina as "pragmatic and shrewd". I'm not really proposing a change on the main page, I'm just venting. That's why this is on the discussion page. I agree that my opinions don't have a place on the main page. JackSlack 23:29, March 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm not sure what definitions you're using, but I was using the dictionary definitions of the words. Shrewd- "astute or sharp in practical matters." He is demonstrated to be very shrewd. He knows which way the wind blows, and he adapts to the changing political realities he is faced with. You yourself quoted Anderson stating that he knows how to get things done. Being whiny and uncharismatic does not mean one cannot also be politically shrewd. Case in point- Friedrich von Holstein. One of the most anti-social, uncharismatic people ever, but also one of the shrewdest political minds of the Victorian era. He was totally a behind the scenes operator, a career bureaucrat. Most people didn't even realize he was pulling the strings. So, seeing as being whiny and uncharismatic does not prevent someone from also being shrewd, is there any other reason Udina isn't shrewd? A valid reason? As for pragmatic, it means "possessing a practical point of view". Udna is practical. There is no disputing this. Every action of his screams practicality, as well as shrewdness, adapting to the political situation. Look at how he latches on to the decision to reinstate Shepard into the Spectres. He didn't seem to like the idea, but he saw which way the political wind was blowing, and he went with it. By any proper definition, Udina is nothing if not shrewd and pragmatic. That's why I wrote the intro to include those words. SpartHawg948 04:59, March 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's also worth pointing out that, as I pointed out quite a ways back on the Talk:Human page, we're really not in a position to say things like "But he's been promoted above his level of competence, and as a politician himself, he's awful, and we can pretty plainly see just how awful he is through two games." for one simple reason. We don't really see anything. We see bits and pieces and snippets of days and meetings and whatnot, but definitely not enough to draw any sort of conclusions. What we do know is that he was obviously qualified enough (in the eyes of his superiors) to be named Ambassador. And he's obviously doing his job well enough that he can get away with telling the Citadel Council that he is sick of their anti-human bull**** without being recalled and sacked. That right there tells you something. And he's obviously qualified enough to remain Councilor (or adviser to the Councilor) for two years post ME. Anyone who can pull that off is obviously not promoted above his grade. As for being an awful politician, you have to remember that as an Ambassador, his success or failure is ultimately decided solely on his ability to effectively give voice to the opinions and interests of his superiors, and we don't know what his instructions from on high are, so any attempt to brand him a failure is foolish. It's like us arguing over who was the better Russian Ambassador to the UN. Lavrov or Churkin. We don't know nearly enough about their instructions and how well they carried them out for us to judge. Rememer, Ambassadors like Udina are political operators, but they aren't politicians. So Udina isn't awful as a politician, because he isn't a politician! SpartHawg948 07:22, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

138.25.90.39 OK, that one's a good point. I still regard him as a poor decision maker (that Shepard leapt in ahead of him to spot the chance to exert some leverage over the Council/the Council has to point out the potential deal ahead of Udina doesn't speak well of him) but we don't know what pressures are being exerted on him from above. Point conceded. And, to his credit, there is one bit of wrangling he does manage quite well (as I realised on reflection): He gets you the Normandy. 20:29, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Retribution
Retribution spoilers, I guess, but shouldn't some mention be made on this page that in Redemption, one way or another, he's become a Councillor? The only reason I'm not adding it myself is because Retribution seems to lay down some canon that contradicts possible player choices, with regards to Anderson, Udina and the Council, and I'm not sure if this has been discussed or sorted out anywhere. Unless I'm misremembering and made up this issue...JakePT 10:49, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'd have to agree. It does say that he is the Councilor and that Anderson is the aide to the Councilor. It's actually been discussed a bit on the David Anderson talk page, but it sure wasn't sorted out there. Basically, I sought official clarification, and was told (literally) "it is what it is". So yeah, I agree that it should be noted that apparently Udina is the Councilor and Anderson the aide, if not during ME2, then at the very least shortly thereafter. SpartHawg948 10:53, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Having just read Retribution literally hours ago, this really irked me. Due to the circumstances of the book's storyline, which I won't spoil, it wouldn't have really mattered if Udina was the Councillor or not - he would've been put in that position due to Anderson's choice anyway. Given the care that Bioware/Karpyshyn have taken with preserving the games' ambiguity in the past, either somebody got careless or this was deliberate (perhaps to set up a situation in ME3 involving Udina...). I'm more than a little confused by the apparent abandonment of the care taken to canon in the past... I just read Karpyshyn's reply in the other talk page, I might try and send another email seeking clarification... he was more than a little vague. Bronzey 11:00, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I supposed if you really want to Fan Wank it, you could say that if Anderson was the councillor in ME2, then shortly after he resigned and swapped posts with Udina, which makes sense for his character, the way he acted in ME2, but that has no place in the article. I suppose all we can say is that 'prior to the events of Retribution Udina was made councillor and Anderson became his aide', which isn't much. I suppose we'll have to wait until ME3 until this clears itself up, but even then I doubt it will. I have a feeling someone's made a boo boo here.
 * I'm not too sure contacting Karpyshyn will help much though, since I think he's off doing something besides Mass Effect, I think it's really up to the writers whether or not they want to ignore it or explain it. I suppose asking if he knows how they're treating it could help some.JakePT 11:05, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Anonymous poster (try to sign your posts): That would technically work, but it'd be a really contrived and awkward solution to the issue. I'm hoping that as you say, it's just a case of somebody making a mistake with their backstory and not realising that the Councilor was player-decided. Although, I have a suspicion that this was a deliberate way of ensuring Udina was the human councilor for ME3, for plot reasons (perhaps Udina emerges as an ally/enemy of Shepard, who knows).
 * @Jake: As far as I'm aware Karpyshyn created the overarching storyline of the trilogy, so he'd be a good place to start. Even a simple clarification of whether this was just a mistake or a deliberate action (for whatever reason) would be nice. Bronzey 11:47, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * The anonymous poster was me, I edited my post soon enough after posting it that the homepage only showed what I added as being new from me.JakePT 11:57, September 3, 2010 (UTC)