User talk:Shadowdragon00000

Hi, welcome to Mass Effect Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the File:Humanreaper.jpg page.

Be sure to check out our Style Guide and Community Guidelines to help you get started, and please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- DRY (Talk) 05:03, 26 January 2010

"Exotic Dancer"
If you want to be technical, all Miranda Lawson did was function as a private exotic dancer as well. She basically gave Shepard a glorified lapdance in the cutscene. There is no factual basis for referring to Chambers as a "private exotic dancer" which is why I removed it from the article. She has been described by the good folks at BioWare as a romance option, which trumps the "private exotic dancer" claim. If you disagree, however, please bring it up on the talk page for the article. As it stands, we're getting dangerously close to edit warring here. Thanks, SpartHawg948 10:47, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

There's no reason to remove the edit about Kelly being an exotic dancer, because 1) it's true and 2) that's her only role in her "romance". Also, the statement that a BioWare moderator made about her being a romance option was back in mid December. "Romancing" Kelly yields none of the gameplay changing events that romancing others does. As such, I will continue to edit the page with the proper information for the sake of setting the expectation of people who Wiki her.

If you feel compelled about leveling the playing field about Miranda being a private exotic dancer, then by all means, edit that page as well.

Shadowdragon00000 10:51, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't feel compelled to "level playing fields", I feel compelled to keep speculative nonsense that is contradicted by statements from BioWare out of the articles. We have no officially crossed into the field of edit warring (going by wikipedia's 3-revert rule, which we use as a basis here, as well). I have justified my reasoning for removing the content, you have failed to justify your adding of it. So, I'm going to have to ask you to either justify adding it, or stop. I am also obligated to warn you that edit warring is a blockable offense. Please keep this in mind. Regardless of what you think of the statements of a "BioWare moderator", he certainly speaks with more clout on the subject than you, and he is a valid source. SpartHawg948 10:57, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

If you feel the need to bring the attention of an admin to this issue, which you are not by the way, then do so. Keep in mind that I am merely posting facts based off gameplay events, as such, my edits are justified. If you feel the need to discuss whether or not factual events should be posted in a Wiki page, then perhaps you should be the one opening a discussion about it. Shadowdragon00000 11:00, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * You may want to do a quick fact-finding tour. Contrary to your last statement, I am, in fact, one of the three admins of this wiki. That is not a very hard piece of info to find out. Not at all. And again, an official source from BioWare states that she is a romance option. This trumps your opinion, as does the fact that you can engage in a romance subplot with her, whether or not it gets you the Paramour achievement. Bear in mind that Sha'ira is also considered a romance option, and she doesn't get you the achievement either. Again, please refrain from baseless edit warring. This will be the last warning I give (in my capacity as an admin). SpartHawg948 11:06, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is NOT about whether or not she's a romance option, but about her being a private exotic dancer. Not ONCE did I suggest that she's not a romance interest.

Get the facts straight, because to me it seems that you're simply having an "administrative power trip".Shadowdragon00000 11:10, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, then find me the source that calls her a private exotic dancer. Please. Find it for me. By your standard, we need to edit pretty much all the options to state this, and it's pure speculative BS. Of course they don't show anything more, they couldn't make it explicit. I think that this message you receive in game speaks volumes though, doesn't it? SpartHawg948 11:13, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

You don't consider someone wearing a thong and shaking their junk in your face with a ludicrously low cut top to NOT be an exotic dancer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnX8QTVlluw

Shadowdragon00000 11:16, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I may personally, but if an official source also calls her a romance option, I'm going with that. Especially when taken in concert with the message I linked to above. Regardless, whether or not I think she's an exotic dancer, stating so in an encyclopedic article without a shred of evidence is speculation. I guess any time any woman anywhere does a seductive striptease for their man/woman in their bedroom, they're exotic dancers now! How 'bout that! SpartHawg948 11:20, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Again, I find myself going back to my previous statement that I'm merely adding her role as a romance option and WHY she does not unlock the Paramour achievement, and how I never contradicted you about her being a romance option. Shadowdragon00000 11:22, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I bent over to your will and put the idea about including her role as a romance option up for debate on the talk page. Again, I see no reason as to why we cannot include the fact that she merely dances and cuddles with Shepard. Shadowdragon00000 11:28, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because we don't know dancing and cuddling is all she does! That's why! Going by your logic, all Miranda does is unzip her suit, partially remove it, and then sit on Shepard. That's it! And as for Kelly, again, this would seem to suggest a bit more than just cuddling. All I'm saying is that there is no source for Kelly just being a "private exotic dancer" (again, are all women who do something like this for their lovers nothing more than exotic dancers) so why not just leave it like it is? It says she is a romance option (which is true) and that romancing her does not unlock Paramour (which is true) without calling her a "private exotic dancer (which is speculation). I honestly don't see why this is such a big deal. SpartHawg948 11:34, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

How about we carry this discussion over to the talk page, hm? =)

Shadowdragon00000 11:36, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Removal of Reaper Speculation
Speculation does have to be substantiated, and this did not seem to be. For example, "Since the people are processed into an organic metal, it's probable that the synapses that store thoughts and memories are kept intact when liquefied." That statement is entirely contradictory. Synapses are physical structures within the brain. How is it in any way probable that they would be "kept intact when liquefied"? And "organic metal"? Metal is an inherently inorganic substance. Was this term ever used in-game, or is it also speculation? As for "one ship, one will, many minds", if the ships retain the individual personalities of those who were "infused" into them, shouldn't it be 'one ship, many wills"?. One ship, one will, many minds doesn't suggest individual thought processes are maintained at all. It suggests multiple processors. As for "Furthermore, Reapers seem to have an unlimited amount of knowledge at their disposal", please! This is demonstrably not the case. If it was, Saren wouldn't have had to go to all the effort of locating the Mu Relay! Sovereign would have told him where it is. Lastly, "it's possible that the victim's memories are transferred to the Reaper when their liquefied form is injected into the frame due to the fact that Reapers are sapient, self aware constructs and contain a multitude of A.I. programs." Sapient, self aware constructs with a multitude of AI programs? Doesn't that describe the geth as well? Hardly an indicator of retained personalities from organics, especially in light of the fact that assuming that all Reapers came about in the same way as the Human-Reaper is itself speculation. And that's about why Bastian964 was entirely justified in removing that section from the Reaper article. SpartHawg948 06:35, March 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * EDI said herself that Reapers are constructs of organic and inorganic material. The only substance that was being used to create the Human Reaper, as far as the player can confirm, is human genetic matter broken down into a liquid.


 * In terms of the Mu Relay, that happened after the Reapers went into hibernation and their plans foiled by the last of the protheans.


 * It's fully possible for memories to be transferred through various mediums. If you recall in the first Mass Effect, you came in contact with an Asari who has the racial memories of the protheans stored in her head...AKA the cypher. Not only that, but synapses are electric impulses between organic cells. Since Reapers are, again, a hybrid of organic and inorganic material, it's quite possible that the collective racial knowledge is transferred with the genetic material.


 * I know you don't like Speculation, Spart, but there are just some things that need to be read into and given some consideration before writing it off. BioWare left scattered puzzle pieces for us to put together, which is what makes the storyline to ME so interesting, because the puzzle pieces opens a wide array of doors, such as Reapers inheriting memories and knowledge from the species used to create them.


 * Shadowdragon00000


 * I love speculation! I speculate quite often! I just like it to be left out of articles unless it's actually backed up by something. Look at the Human-Reaper. There are tubes pumping orange liquefied people into the shell. Does this look similar in any way to the metal of the shell itself? No! As you yourself say, the Reapers combine organic and inorganic. Metal is part of that inorganic. As for the Mu Relay, I know it happened post Reaper-hibernation. I was just using it as an example of a case contradicting the claim that Reapers "have an unlimited amount of knowledge at their disposal". I fully realize that it's possible to gave memories transferred through various means. As you say, the Thorian transferred the Cipher to an asari (no caps for race names) but we've seen no evidence of that here, and evidence is a must for speculation to be allowed into articles. As for what a synapse is, refer to synapse: "a synapse is a structure that permits a neuron to pass an electrical or chemical signal to another cell." A structure, eh? There is no evidence backing this up, just supposition and contradictory statements. As such, it's 100% acceptable for a talk page or a forum, but not an article. SpartHawg948 07:12, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Listen to Chakwas's description as to what happened. She said that the colonists ( and crew if applicable ) were turned into grey goo. Also, when you're going through the seeker swarm, the exit of the tunnel is framed by a large forge with the tubes leading to it. It's safe to assume that the genetic material gets super heated so it's more malleable prior to being injected into the Human-Reaper, thus resulting in an orange tint.

Shadowdragon00000


 * Uh-huh. Grey human matter being superheated so that it's orange and malleable, eh? This still doesn't explain the human beings turned into metal part. Also, given that no mention whatsoever is made of heat, it's not safe to assume super-heating at all. At least, not for the purposes of an encyclopedic article, where there is no such thing as a "safe assumption". Again, assume all you want on talk pages and forums. Be my guest! And if you want, start every assumption with the phrase "this assumption is for you, SpartHawg". Really rub it in! That'll get my goat for sure! You would think though, that with superheated liquified humans, there'd be steam when the tubes were shattered... SpartHawg948 07:38, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

If it wasn't super heated and/or an organic metal, then why did Chackwas say they were turned into grey goo, yet the tubes contain orange goo which was seen quite coincidentally after passing what appeared to be some sort of furnace or forge?

Shadowdragon00000


 * I haven't the faintest idea, although when I saw those I didn't see anything that appeared to be a furnace or forge. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say perhaps some sort of anti-congealing agent was added. The liquid in the tubes didn't look anything like molten metal (and there still hasn't been any explanation given about how organic human material would be somehow alchemically transformed into inorganic metal), and again, there was absolutely no steam, heat waves, or any other indicator of high temperature. However, given that I have no idea and there is no supporting material for it either way, I keep this supposition out of the article entirely, as it has no place there. SpartHawg948 07:56, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

The human body contains quite a bit of elements found in metal, such as carbon and iron. If broken down to the most basic of elements, or the cells were separated in a manner which they could be divided or converged, it's theoretically possible to forge a metal from a human body as long as you could keep those metallic elements seperate. Perhaps this is something that's done by the swarms of nanites that cause the body to be broken down. You can see the forge/furnace at the end of the 2nd portion of the suicide mission here ( link ) which clearly depicts a mass of the genetic paste being mixed together, much like a forge.

Shadowdragon00000
 * If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that it's possible to forge metal from a human body by separating out the metallic content (ie iron - carbon being a nonmetallic element) and then forging it? What would be the point then? You could just mine the metal directly. It in no way explains why humans and only humans were acceptable. And again, while there may be a structure that looks somewhat like a forge or furnace (I still don't see it), there is no indication of high temperatures. None. As there is no evidence for this, or for any of the other content removed, it's pure speculation that does not fit the requirements for it to be included in an article. SpartHawg948 08:16, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Following that same mindset, why use humans at all if they could just harvest the metal? Why are organics needed in the reproduction of reapers? Why did EDI speculate that a prothean Reaper had been attempted but failed? How do Reapers acquire knowledge of the race they assimilate without actually interacting with them? All these questions have a logical answer, most of which I have laid out and explained.

On a side note, there are four metals in the human body. Copper, zinc, iron, and manganese are all metallic compounds in an organic body. Also, a biometal is a term used to describe a "living machine", which is something that a Reaper clearly classifies as. Having said that, it's not as contradictory to have an organic metal as you claim it to be.

Shadowdragon00000


 * Yup, it still is. Biometal describes a living machine. Organic metal does not. "Organic metal" and "Biometal" are not synonymous, any more than silicon-based life-form and "organic rock" are. Bottom line, your "logical answer" doesn't have any solid, verifiable evidence that can be seen in-game. It's based on supposition. It's not been stated that organics are needed in the reproduction of Reapers. EDI stated that she had no way to ascertain if all Reapers were created in the same manner as the Human-Reaper or not. EDI speculated that a Prothean Reaper (both those race names do get caps) had been tried and failed. And where is it stated that the Reapers acquire the knowledge of assimilated races? I don't recall that coming up ever. So, seeing as there isn't any hard evidence, which is required for speculation to be included in articles, the material in question has no place in the article proper. Talk page? Yes. Forum? Yes. Article? No. SpartHawg948 08:38, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Speculation is nothing more than a conclusion based off of suppositions that can be justified one way or another. If there are facts behind speculation, then it is no longer speculation.

Shadowdragon00000


 * Agreed. And there aren't facts behind this one. Just assumptions and supposition. As I said, I'm all for speculation that meets the rather rigorous requirements and actually has cold hard fact to support it's conclusions. And this bit does not. SpartHawg948 08:46, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Meh.

Going back to your statement in regards to EDI discussing the reproduction of Reapers, EDI stated that Reapers are sapient constructs and a hybrid of organic and inorganic material. EDI also stated that it's probable that Reapers absorb the essence of a species, utilizing it in their reproduction process. Check out my YouTube video, starting at 3:10, which explores the entire dialog tree on why it looks human. So yes, according to EDI, Reapers need organics in their reproduction process, and the apparent evidence that they absorb the essence of a race means that it's possible they acquire the ancestral knowledge of said race.

The only thing that EDI couldn't speculate on is the purpose of the Human-Reaper, as disclosed at 5:08.

Shadowdragon00000


 * I will concede that EDI says it's "probable" (not for certain, but probable) that Reapers absorb the "essence" (a maddeningly vague term coming from an AI) of a race as part of a means of reproduction. She does not, however, state that this is how all Reapers reproduce. And nowhere are memories mentioned. After all, your speculation was about memories being transferred. The closest there is to mention of memories being transferred is a mention of some "essence" possibly being transferred to the Reaper. This of course in no way acts as evidence for memory tranfer, either on an individual or a species-wide basis. SpartHawg948 09:07, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so what is the essence of a race, if not their ancestral memories?

Did Shepard not acquire the essence of the protheans upon receiving their ancestral memories from the cypher in order to sort the message from the prothean beacon?

Shadowdragon00000


 * That question presupposes that all races have an inherent "ancestral memory", and that ancestral memories are anything at all like what was seen with the Protheans, which is simply not the case, at least not as we know it, the concept of ancestral memory still being rather theoretical. An ancestral (or more accurately, genetic) memory is part of the collective unconscious of a people, and consists of deeply ingrained information, acquired over a very long time, that is present with all individuals at the time of birth. Again, essence is a very vague term. Among other things, it can mean "the inward nature, true substance, or constitution of anything, as opposed to what is accidental, phenomenal, illusory, etc.", or "something that exists, esp. a spiritual or immaterial entity." I personally view essence as something more intangible, like the soul. If it were something as simple as a genetic or cultural memory, it seems likely that EDI would have said so, especially given Shepard's prior experience with just that sort of thing. Instead, she chose "essence", a nebulous term, to say the least. Given that we don't know what "essence" she was referring to, it's not evidence that the memories of the luquified people are carried over to the Reaper. SpartHawg948 09:25, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Funny you should elaborate on your views of what an ancestral memory is. Last I recall, Shiala said verbatim "In order to understand the beacon, you must think like a prothean and know their history". The thorian also consumed dead protheans to acquire that knowledge, much like how humans were consumed ( or better yet, processed ) to make the Human-Reaper.

Again, while there's no direct factual evidence or closure that the memories may be transferred to the Human-Reaper, all the information and basic facts that I've laid to justify the speculation isn't something that can be easily denied, and logically points towards the conclusion in regards to Reapers having the ancestral memories of the race used to create it.

Shadowdragon00000