User talk:SpartHawg948

I hate the way images look when added to talk pages. They mess with the flow of the page, and generally look just plain unsightly. As such, I ask that editors please not post images on my talk page. If you have an image that supports your point, feel free to provide a link to that image, but please don't add the image itself. From this point on, any such posts will be summarily removed as soon as they are noticed, with no warning or explanation.

Cthulhu validity
Here's a quote from one of the cultists in "Call of Cthulhu":


 * "They were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape [...] but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them."


 * I have to say I can't see how this quote proves anything about how that function connects them to the Reapers. Even if it did it is a huge stretch. Lancer1289 20:07, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Sovereign's role was to manipulate entities into reawakening the hibernating Reapers at the edge of the galaxy. Likewise, Cthulhu had to manipulate humans into raising R'lyeh and subsequently awakening his brethren from their hibernation. This series is rife with inspiration from Lovecraft. Heck, another connection to the series in that very quote is "When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky". -- Shoggoth1890 20:15, January 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict - If you want to talk to Lancer, please do it on his talk page or yours, not mine) But that quote was contradicted in later works, was it not? For example, in The Dunwich Horror, it is stated that Cthulu is not one of the Old Ones, as was stated in the work you quote, but rather that "Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly". In other works, Cthulu's spawn are described actively fighting against the Old Ones in R'lyeh. Lovecraft's mythos is so convoluted and contradictory that statements like what you are adding really only apply if you selectively pick and choose bits of the mythos. If you take it in its entirety, they cease to have relevance. SpartHawg948 20:18, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * As for the "plunge from world to world through the sky" bit, I do have to call that one a real stretch. Not just a stretch, but a s-s-s-t-t-t-r-r-r-e-e-e-c-c-c-h-h-h. It has literally as much to do with Mass Effect as it does with any other sci-fi series employing FTL technology. FTL in Mass Effect has nothing whatsoever to do with the stars being right. That leaves plunging from world to world through the sky, which could refer to pretty much any sci-fi franchise. If I had to pick any sci-fi series/franchise that the quote about stars and plunging from world to world most closely resembled, it'd be Stargate, where the people actually literally go from world to world, instead of most series (like Mass Effect) where they go from star system to star system or cluster to cluster, and in which the positions of stars does have a definite impact on travel. SpartHawg948 21:17, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Apologies, posted there because I was trying to avoid cross-page talk. If it weren't for the sheer abundance of Lovecraft influence I'd agree that the between worlds bit was a stretch, so I was reticent about mentioning it. Inconsistencies in specifics of a franchise(not really a franchise I know) are not grounds to exclude any mention of said franchise. The unified canon is what matters. Star Wars is filled with inconsistencies, but it does not invalidate someone that mentions the accepted canon. Retcon sucks, yes, but it happens. -- Shoggoth1890 21:43, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * But in this case, since the source I provided comes after the source you provided, wouldn't that invalidate your position? I mean, the "ret" in retcon does stand for retroactive. That's the whole point of retcon. Material released more recently (such as The Dunwich Horror, which states that Cthulu is not one of the Old Ones) invalidating the older material (which you cite), becoming the new canon? As for a sheer abundance of Lovecraft influence, I can honestly say I haven't seen any abundance. Maybe one or two isolated bits and pieces, but certainly no more than the influences we see of other authors, such as Heinlein. SpartHawg948 22:02, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

No, the second example provides the conflict, but the retcon is from going back to explain away said conflict. The Dunwich Horror example, however, is referring to the type of being that Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath are. "Old Ones" are different than "Great Old Ones", source of much confusion for me initially as well. -- Shoggoth1890 22:15, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * But in Lovecraft's work, Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath are "Other Gods", not Old Ones. SpartHawg948 22:25, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

They are both. As stated previously, those were generic terms which to describe ancient entities, capitalized to emphasize the gravity of their being, and no more invalidates it than stating that the Ancients(Greeks) worshipped Zeus while the Ancients(Egyptians) worshipped Ra. The names being turned into proper names happened later, with "Old Ones" remaining ambiguous references to various races while "Great Old Ones" became a proper name for a particular race. -- Shoggoth1890 22:56, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah... I've seen literally nothing to support that contention. And your example would seem to further invalidate it. Zeus and Ra are two totally different deities, from two totally different pantheons. The Macedonians (generally considered quite distinct from the Ancient Greeks) did begin to associate the two gods during the reign of Alexander, but for the most part, Zeus and Ra are totally distinct. I'm telling you what I've seen and read, and this simply does not substantiate the claims you are making. The Other Gods such as Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath are vastly different from Cthulu and its ilk, and as such, the claim that "Great Cthulhu is Their cousin" really doesn't add up. On the other hand, it would make sense if referring to the Great Old Ones, who are fairly similar to Cthulu. This one seems to be coming down more to personal interpretations of vague and ill-defined literature, which does not make for good trivia. To be quite honest, I've long been of the opinion that the entire "Sovereign is similar to Cthulu" trivia item is bogus, but this seems even more so. SpartHawg948 23:23, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

You completely missed my point. Using a carpet term like Old Ones or Ancients means you cannot use them to refer to a specific people. The Greek being different from the Egyptians was exactly the point I was making, it was an analogy. -- Shoggoth1890 23:33, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm not following that analogy. You may want to clarify that one, or maybe not. I did make some other points though that were not addressed in your reply. I would very much like to see a response to them. SpartHawg948 23:40, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Old Ones was only capitalized to add gravitas to the phrase, as evidenced in its consistency in use for several types of beings. Consider instead old ones. Literally the ones that are old, i.e. ancients. I honestly do not know how to simplify the analogy more. -- Shoggoth1890 23:49, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * So that's a no, then, on addressing the rest of my post? I don't even know why I bother asking sometimes. It seems like too many people these days listen to Robert McNamara, and answer the question they wish they'd been asked, instead of the question they were actually asked. SpartHawg948 00:34, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that you are getting stuck and repeating yourself when I have made a valid point and I am sure you feel the same about me. Such is the way of man. Let's address one point at a time and not move on until it is addressed. In the post above this, what is one of the points you say I did not address? -- Shoggoth1890 04:35, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * The contention, made several times, that this issue is largely subjective, depending on ones own interpretation of the rather convoluted and contradictory mythos Lovecraft concocted. SpartHawg948 04:39, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Would you agree with the statement that, "when in doubt, refer to 'The Call of Cthulhu'", since it is 1.) From the creator of the character and 2.) Contains the most information on the character from said source? -- Shoggoth1890 04:49, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really. What we have here is a multi-volume series, with works by the original author and his (more or less) chosen successor. We also find contradictory elements within the works written solely by the original author. As I reply when asked similar questions dealing strictly with Mass Effect issues, it is not up to us to determine which items from different works in the series are more or less canon. We merely have to make the best of what we're given until the relevant authorities choose to make their views known, though I must confess I have no clue who the relevant authorities are in regards to the Cthulhu (spelled with two H's just for you!) mythos. Perhaps the estates of Mr. Lovecraft and/or Derleth, or possibly Arkham House? Please don't think I'm just trying to be contrarian here. As stated above, I take a nearly identical stance with canon issues and inconsistencies within the Mass Effect universe. SpartHawg948 04:58, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Heh, I appreciate the peace offering of the H. I've admittedly had issues with Derleth ever since being duped into buying his "posthumous collaborations" when I was first getting into Lovecraft. He did help bring HPL to the public, so it's a one-sided love-hate relationship between him and I. Would you agree with the more generalized statement(not referring to the Cthulu Mythos this time) that when there is a dispute in the canon of something, source material should be referenced? -- Shoggoth1890 05:10, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes... to an extent. (Don't want to talk myself into a corner here - referring to general site policies, not to this discussion in particular.) I do think that, for disputes of the nature you describe, source material certainly should be referenced. The only issue I have with this is with referencing canon sources in the disputed article. I don't think that is always necessary, so long as the source is provided, preferably on a talk page. The reason I make this equivocation is because we've had issues before with people citing sources (particularly the three Mass Effect novels) for every tiny little detail, and in a fictional universe, that leads to a whole lot of citations at the bottom of the page. SpartHawg948 05:20, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Do not worry, I'm not playing the "gotcha!" game. I always view slight concessions as a good sign and thus try to avoid discouraging them, and try to make sure I make them as well. Is the primary issue then that I did not cite "The Call of Cthulhu"? I am admittedly new to editing wikis, and have not learned all of the proper etiquette (couldn't find the 3 revert rule Lancer mentioned, is it an unspoken rule or did I look at the wrong page?) -- 71.74.72.212 05:43, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not worried about you playing "gotcha!" or anything. It's more about making sure I don't get myself into trouble later. I'm big on precedent and all that when making decisions, and it's never fun when someone doesn't like something I did and responds with 'but on your talk page, you said "___"', so I'm just trying to cover all my bases, playing "CYA". I can't really speak for what Lancer's issue was, though mine was more an issue of accuracy, compliance with site policy, and perhaps relevance.
 * Now, as to the "three-revert rule", I suppose we could clarify that some. There is actually nothing explicitly defining the three-revert rule or its use by the site admins. There is an item in the Community Guidelines which names "edit warring" as grounds for banning, and the admins use the "three revert rule" which is used by the folks at Wikipedia as the basis for determining what is and isn't an edit war. I suppose the Guidelines could use some clarification. I'll get right on it! :) SpartHawg948 05:55, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Oddly enough I feel placated despite our still extant disagreement. I do agree with you that the specifics of the article could be refined, but enough of a connection exists that it seems extreme to deny them entirely, so much so that it came off sounding like you were threatening to take away something as punishment. I apologize if that was incorrectly interpreted. Perhaps a mention that it is incredibly similar to the nature of Cthulhu as described in 'The Call of Cthulhu', as it seems we both agree that particular story does match, and the contention arises from continuity thereafter? -- Shoggoth1890 06:34, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. I do, as I've stated several times, feel that there is a decent case to be made for a connection between the Reapers as a whole and Cthulhu, since when talking about the Reapers as a whole we can factor in the Derelict Reaper. And frankly, the only way someone can deny the Cthulhu references in that case is if the person in question is either ignorant or just denying it out of spite. As such, I am perfectly happy keeping the Cthulhu trivia on the Reaper page. However, I just don't think that a valid case has been made as far as Sovereign and Cthulu. I still stand by my comments on the Sovereign talk page. A much better case needs to be made to keep that item. This is not me being contrary, or attempting to punish. I simply, after examining the issue more closely, don't see the merit of the trivia linking Sovereign to Cthulhu. 80% of it is just plain false. SpartHawg948 07:14, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

First the image issue: While true that the original editor's claim that they are "the same" is inaccurate, that does not mean there is no connection at all. Would you agree that the cephalopodic feature of Cthulhu is regarded as his most defining and most referenced physical characteristic, as opposed to the man-like and dragon-like elements? -- Shoggoth1890 03:57, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure. That said, it needs to be pointed out that Cthulhu was said to be reminiscent of an octopus. Sovereign clearly is not. It must also be pointed out that simple comparisons based on visuals or appearance are, per site policy, not grounds for valid trivia. SpartHawg948 05:46, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

first i'd like to say thank you for welcoming me to the forums. second, i'd really love to join this discussion if its not unwelcome. as a fan of both series and a person who analyzes things way too much, i feel i have things to add, or perhaps a third side to this debate. i think in terms of the role he plays in the scheme of things (to awaken or call others of his kind, or relatively his kind. the fact that for some reason he needs to influence humans to try to bring this about), there's quite a bit of relation between cthulhu and sovereign in specific, not the entirety of reapers. as far as appearance... although i disagree that sovereign doesn't look somewhat like a mechanical squid or octopus, and cthulhu has also been discribed with a squid like head, not just like an octopus, i still say it doesn't work as well as other points of comparison. maybe if what makes up sovereign's being were mounted on a body as a head i could see more relation, as far as old ones, i believe the term was used as an unspecific term to beings that are old, capitalized because they were of great power and importance. it is used for cthulu, those referred to as great old ones, outer gods, elder gods, and elder things, etc. as far as cthulhu not being an old one, i think in many ways, the statement was a way of saying he was the of the same type, yet something was different about him. perhaps he was different for being younger for all i know, but he cant just plain be a different thing all together. i have always thought that most of what divides the great old ones from the outer gods is a simple matter of their power and limitations. in fact cthulhu is stated to be born from nub/nagoob, one of the twin blasphemies, who are children of yog-sothoth and shub-niggurath. so in a way, this part of the debate boils down to how closely related he is to his grandparents, he is related, and to some extant must be the same creature or species. and about the quote "they could plunge from world to world through the sky" i can see how that could relate most to reapers than most works of science fiction by far. the reason i say that is because if you take for instance stargate, they need the gates and dont technically go through the sky, with most other science fiction there is some craft like object doing the traveling for them, they dont traverse space under there own power and descend upon worlds to reap udder destruction like the reapers and creatures of the cthulhu mythos. going further with the passage, the association of the stars being right holds much more connection in my mind with an idea of cycles and ages like the repeated wiping out of civilizations done by the reapers than it connects to say the calculation of orbits and such that would be required with the gates of stargate. i also see a big correlation in how they assert their control on humans, the indoctrination being in a way a reduced version of both the dream manipulation great old ones use and the insanity caused by cthulhu rising. plus the idea that both have been through many incarnations of civilization is a tie. sorry for intruding in the conversation if my post is viewed as such and sorry for it being so long. lol i came just to leave a message to say thank you for the welcome but i got to your talk page and got intellectually inspired. :)Wilkisama 15:37, January 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I never said Sovereign doesn't look like some sort of mechanical cephalopod. On the contrary, it looks strikingly like a mechanical cuttlefish. On the other hand, I've never seen Cthulhu depicted with cuttlefish-like features, only with those of an octopus, and octopi and cuttlefish look quite different, do they not?
 * And I do feel the need to point out that in Stargate, they do go through the sky. We see it in pretty much every episode and motion picture. The stargates function by opening a stable wormhole between two points, and the person moving between them is transmitted as matter from one to the other, passing rapidly through the intervening area of interstellar (and sometimes intergalactic) space. This is represented in the shows and movies as the onrushing wormhole, with stars visible rushing by outside. As for your other objections to the stargate analogy, it wasn't an exact comparison, it was an analogy. In order to disprove it, you would have to demonstrate how the quote in question better describes the modes of travel used by Reapers and by the races of Mass Effect in general than it does other sci-fi series. SpartHawg948 20:47, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

No worries Sama, input can only add to a discussion, never take away. Spart: although appearance alone is not worth mentioning as trivia, when coupled with other points that solidify it's connection to the central plot of a game series, it is. Going on a point-by-point basis right now since we kept getting bogged down in cluttered arguments. Although octopus is used as a descriptor, it is clear from the sketch of Cthulhu that Lovecraft did in one of his correspondences that he did not specifically mean an octopus but a cephalopod in general. Technically, the Reapers are not described as resembling squids either, but rather cuttlefish. I will move on to the next point if you are satisfied with this leg of the conversation. -- Shoggoth1890 19:06, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * I fully understand that, when coupled with other points, appearance becomes a viable support for a piece of trivia. I really don't need it to be explained to me. Funny thing is, when you helped write all the rules, you tend to understand them pretty well. Now, you contend that Lovecraft did not specifically mean that Cthulhu resembled an octopus, but rather a cephalopod in general. Why then did Lovecraft himself liken Cthulhu specifically to an octopus? I find it odd that you go from holding up what Lovecraft said in Call of Cthulhu is the canon of canons (as you argued earlier while discussing the matter that originally spawned this discussion) to arguing that what Lovecraft said in Call of Cthulhu isn't really what he meant. Additionally, I am well aware that Reapers look more like cuttlefish than squid. In fact, it's well known to me, and has been for some time, that Reapers look very much like Reaper Cuttlefish. So like a Reaper Cuttlefish that we've had to remove "trivia" several times that they were created using Reaper Cuttlefish (thanks to the bit in ME2 where EDI hypothesizes that Reapers take on the form of the race used to create them). If you're satisfied with this part of the conversation, I am. SpartHawg948 20:47, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

Please, don't use gotcha tactics. I have not mentioned the moments I noticed of yours, and the one you mention is not a contradiction, since Lovecraft was using similarities to an octopus as a way to describe this utterly alien being; not that he literally had an octopus on his head. Later on in the story, he is indeed described using the word squid. I'm sure you'll agree that although he was also described as "man-like", it was only describing his general anthropoid features and could have easily been referred to as any primate-like. Is it sheer coincidence that the Derelict Reaper that we both identify as a Cthulhu reference is in the shape of a cephalopod? That alone should show that the designers draw the association of which I speak. -- Shoggoth1890 21:19, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not using gotcha tactics. I didn't realize that what I could and couldn't say on my own talk page was your purview. (Though perhaps when you answered the query from another user about taking part in a discussion on my talk page, that should have been a hint...) I also didn't realize that pointing out contradictions in your position (as it is a contradiction) was inappropriate. Now you are interpreting what Lovecraft did and didn't mean. Of course he didn't literally have an octopus for a head. Not once have I voiced such a ludicrous statement. He did have an octopus-like head though, and as I've repeatedly pointed out, octopi and cuttlefish look extremely dissimilar. Now, you go on to make assumptions about my own opinion on the Derelict Reaper. My identification of the Derelict Reaper with the Cthulhu mythos has nothing to do with the shape of the vessel, and everything to do with the line about dead gods dreaming. It seems entirely likely that the developers saw a picture of a Reaper Cuttlefish, and designed the Reapers to resemble the Reaper Cuttlefish. Were this the case, it would explain why the Reapers have the same name and nearly identical appearance as the aforementioned cuttlefish, and would do so completely without Cthulhu. Now, about that moving on... SpartHawg948 21:29, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

I've not ditctated what you could and could not say, I politely asked. It was not intended to sound feign. I was hoping for mutual respect and was simply pointing out an area that seemed disrespectful to me. Please do the same if you feel I am disrespecting you. I gave brief mention to another poster as not to be rude and completely ignore him. -- Lovecraft used the phrase "octopus-like" to describe Cthulhu, and he also used the phrase "squid-head". These do not conflict with each other because he is conveying that Cthulhu possessed generic cephalopodic traits. -- I never claimed you were making the association between the shape, I was asking you if the shape was a coincidence to the "dead god dreaming". Although the Reaper design appears specifically based on the reaper cuttlefish, the question I am asking is why of all the possible creatures that exist did they choose a cuttlefish? -- Shoggoth1890 22:53, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Simple. They were mulling over the name "Reaper", someone knew about or heard of the Reaper Cuttlefish, they looked at an image of the cuttlefish, and liked what they saw. It's a strange and foreign looking creature, and the shape does make for a good spacecraft. It's entirely plausible to surmise that at no point in the creation of Sovereign did Cthulhu come up. Now, I can only give you my word that at no point was disrespect intended, I was merely asking what seemed to me to be a reasonable question. On the other hand, addressing a query from another user concerning acceptable content on my user page, and accusing me of using "gotcha tactics" did strike me as disrespectful. I understand that you were attempting to be polite using euphemisms (though in truth, input can and often does detract from conversations, as I've seen all too often around here), but it would be appreciated if you could refrain from doing so when another user asks about the appropriateness of joining an ongoing conversation on my talk page. Had the user left the same message on your talk page, I'd have deferred to you in that respect. Seriously though, I thought we were moving on several posts ago. This thread is becoming quite lengthy, so I'd like to keep it moving, or stop it altogether, as clearly neither of us is making headway with the other as far as appearance goes. SpartHawg948 23:54, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

My comment was not in regard to your talk page but rather to discussions in general; about how nothing added to a discussion(correct or incorrect) can ever delete something previously said. I will assure you as well I meant no disrespect. I have just realized the phrase to best sum up my description of the imagery connection is "visual allusion". On to the next point though, as you suggest. -- I originally agreed with you that Sovereign was not described as "virtually indestructible", but then I read his codex entry in ME2 again, and it says just that. -- Shoggoth1890 00:51, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes it does. The very same sentence also says that Sovereign is a warship crewed by krogan and geth. Nothing more, nothing less. A dreadnought. It is common knowledge that the Codex entries for Sovereign, the Reapers as a whole, and certain other topics such as the rachni are woefully incorrect, representing the commonly held in-universe opinions of the Citadel. However, the same entry also notes that the "virtually indestructable" Sovereign was stopped, though it fails to mention the fact that this was as a result of Sovereign's destruction. SpartHawg948 00:55, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Since whether or not a being is indestructible is only certain upon death of the subject, it is unknown that anything reportedly so truly is. This applies to Cthulhu as well. This makes the relevant information the 'claim' that something is virtually indestructible. Virtual indestructibility is unable to even be proven upon the death of an entity, since it never claims something to be truly indestructible. Thought this point was going to be able to be quickly passed to the next one. -- Shoggoth1890 01:57, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * There is, however, one thing that can prove or disprove virtual indestructibility. Destroying the person or thing in question. Regardless, we seem to have gotten off track here. Having gone back and reviewed the issue, the matter of indestructibility, presumed, virtual, or otherwise, is moot. The issue raised was whether or not Sovereign was "presumably near-invincible". It was not. At no point, not even in the hyperbolic and propagandized ME2 Codex entry on Sovereign, is it claimed or presumed that Sovereign was nearly invincible. As this is the case, and as Sovereign is demonstrably destructible, this point seems pretty open and shut. SpartHawg948 02:05, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Destruction of something cannot determine if something was 'virtually' indestructible, only the history of attempts to destroy it can. The codex entry clearly states what was rumor and what was not. It states that the crew of krogan and geth were Saren's, not that they piloted Sovereign(sorry if misinterpreting the point of mentioning this). -- Shoggoth1890 02:22, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sigh... didn't I just point out that the virtually indestructible bit was moot, as it was you who just now introduced it to the argument despite the fact that no such thing had been discussed prior to a couple of hours ago? However, just for S&Gs, let's look at the history of attempts to destroy Sovereign. Depending on how you slice it, we really have either two or possibly three known attempts to destroy Sovereign. The Citadel fleet tries, and fails. It should be noted that this was due, at least in part, to the presence of a strong geth fleet which obstructed the Citadel fleet, and as such does not accurately reflect the ability of the Citadel fleet to take down the Reaper. Next, we have the Alliance attempt, with an Alliance fleet (which was smaller and less formidable than the Citadel fleet) working in conjunction with Shepard and company to take it down. This effort succeeded. Now, depending on whether you consider the later as one or two attempts, we have either a 50% or 33% success rate. Hardly "virtually" indestructible.
 * As for the Codex, it does specify that Saren has an "indestructible flagship and a crew of fanatic geth and krogan". Given that the two are linked thus, and the krogan and geth are described as a "crew" and not, say, an army, the implication would be that the geth and krogan were the one presumably operating the ship, would it not? This is further reinforced by repeated claims made in ME2, most notably by the Council, that Sovereign was a geth vessel. The point of mentioning this was that the ME2 Codex entry on Saren, generally regarded as canon but inaccurate (representing, as it does, the misguided beliefs of some members of the galactic community) is hardly a reputable source upon which to base an argument. Now... was there anything else? This thread is getting quite long, yet we've only touched (inconclusively, I might add) upon two points out of five. SpartHawg948 02:39, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * It also just occurred to me the irony (and this is meant ironically, with no malice aforethought) of the earlier claim that I was secretly Cthulhu, sent to drive you mad. Methinks the roles have been reversed. Tedious does not begin to describe this thread of late... :{ SpartHawg948 02:41, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

No offense taken at that. I meant mine jokingly as well, and figured you were as frustrated as I. We're both passionate about the subject and it shows. In a nautical sense, crew is a term that refers to any personnel of a ship, including guards or (jet)pilots that never touch a ship's controls. I'll give you were getting nit picky on that there. If you want to move on to the next point, we shall. -- Shoggoth1890 03:07, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Being a member of the armed forces, I am of course well aware of all the implications of the word crew. It can be used to define personnel stationed on a ship who don't operate a ships controls, but of course this is not the common definition. As you say, it's an extremely nit-picky definition. I don't want to move on to the next point, fearing it will be both as lengthy and as unproductive as the previous two, but if you wish to move on, then let's move on. SpartHawg948 03:28, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Crap, I was in too much of a rush and forgot to even address the issues in your other post. Sovereign claims the cycle of destruction has continued since time immemorial, with only a single dead Reaper ever discovered. Since it's safe to assume that most the civilizations fought back rather than accept their destruction, it's a pretty strong track record. My forehead is getting bruised, so I'll shorten the remainder -- Shoggoth1890 03:57, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sovereign explicitly states that his nature is beyond our understanding
 * Codex states that eventually the indoctrinated loose their mental faculties
 * A question: if you don't accept what the codex says, how are you determining anything about the universe? Conversations with people in-game are even more subject to bias and rumor than the codex.  Firsthand experiences are not enough to cover even half the content here, and can be deceiving.
 * Yeah. The problem there is that you're working off assumptions, and I'm working off observations. One of my foremost rules is "There is no such thing as a safe assumption". If we look at known fact, we see that of the four Reapers directly encountered by Shepard and crew (Sovereign, Harbinger, the Derelict Reaper, and the Human-Reaper), one is already dead (for all intents and purposes, though some systems are apparently still functional), and two are destroyed in short order. So, operating off facts, not assumptions, Reapers would appear not insanely difficult to kill. Granted, they do seem to do ok with the cycles of extinction, but much of that can be attributed to the massive first strike they inflict, and to their deactivation of the mass relays, isolating their targets and allowing them to wither on the vine, akin to Alliance military doctrine. When deprived of these advantages, they become much less formidable. Now, to the other points:
 * Sovereign explicitly states that the goals of the Reapers, and the reasons for their cycle of extinction, are beyond human understanding. It (and please, I started spelling Cthulhu with an H, can you return the favor by not calling Sovereign, a machine-organic hybrid of indeterminate gender, or possibly no gender at all, a "he"?) never states that it is beyond human understanding.
 * The Codex does not state that the victims of indoctrination go mad though, does it? In fact, Vigil specifies what happens to them when it mentions that the Reapers indoctrinated pawns, left behind when the Reapers left, essentially ceased to function. Bereft of the Reapers commands and suggestions, they simply... stopped, and eventually died from thirst, starvation, exposure, etc. Again, we have seen no evidence of people being driven mad, and it should also be pointed out that, contrary to what the "Sovereign-Cthulhu" trivia blurb asserted, even if they had, it would not be from the mere presence of the Reapers, but rather from the process of Indoctrination, which is a purposeful act undertaken by the Reapers. This is a far cry from the mere presence of the Reapers causing madness, as was suggested.
 * As for the Codex, when did I ever say that I (or this wiki) do not accept what the Codex says? Ever? Even once? I can't recall any such statement. In all but a very few, and very obvious, cases, the Codex is deemed the best source for information. However, due to the in-universe bias inherent in the Codex, a few entries (particularly the entries about Sovereign and the Reapers) are considered exceptions to this rule, as we see for ourselves that these entries are not true, but rather are a reflection of the ignorance of their authors on the subject matter. Of course dialogue from characters is generally unreliable, which is why we treat it as such. However, the Codex itself is pretty darn unreliable too. Just look at the entries on Sovereign and the Reapers if you don't believe me. SpartHawg948 04:12, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Addendum - In the interests of full disclosure and accuracy, I did go back and redo talking to Sovereign. It turns out that it does state that it is beyond Commander Shepard's comprehension. That said, I must point out that, as we now know, this claim is false, and I'm far from convinced that a megalomaniacal claim that we know to be false is akin to truly being beyond comprehension, as Cthulhu apparently is. That said, I will admit that only 60% of the trivia I removed was bogus. There was merit to a whopping 40%. Still doesn't seem like enough to me. SpartHawg948 04:48, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I give up. I simply cannot say anything you consider logical, and it is too frustrating. Not responding to any topics about this here or externally. Parts of the debate were interesting, so thank you. I bid my adieu now -- Shoggoth1890 05:40, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Roger that. I feel much the same way, if it makes you feel any better. And know that I bear you absolutely no ill will or any of that other nasty stuff. There may have been a few misunderstandings along the way, but we worked through them (most of the credit for that, by the way, belongs to you, the person willing to make the first conciliatory gesture, which you certainly have my respect for), and as far as I'm concerned, any unpleasantness between us is water under the bridge. SpartHawg948 05:43, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Awaiting your green-light
A couple articles I want to create:


 * Urdnot Camp - a visitable location in ME2 that somehow never got an article. This would be formatted like Nos Astra and other location articles.


 * Virtual Alien - from the Cerberus Daily News storyline. I've had an article ready-made for months now in my sandbox. I was waiting to get the aliens' actual name for themselves, but since the CDN ends tomorrow such a revelation is unlikely. If we ever do learn their name, we can move the article and make the necessary revisions to the text.

This alright with you? -- Commdor (Talk) 21:52, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and a category for homeworlds. I figure that might be useful. -- Commdor (Talk) 21:55, January 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again: Bless you, Commdor! You have no idea how nice it is to get a message on my talk page that doesn't have to do with this Cthulhu nonsense. Honestly, you'd think that I had desecrated H. P. Lovecraft's corpse or something based on the arguments. This despite the fact that I actually agree with them on some points. But I'm seriously digressing now...


 * Both those ideas sound great! You're right on both counts... I can't really see how the Udrnot camp was missed, and we're likely not getting the virtual aliens' names any time soon. Hopefully towards the end of the year though, when a certain game is released... Anywho, consider both your articles green-lighted! :) SpartHawg948 21:57, January 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, and your accursed edit-conflicting homeworld category sounds like a decent idea too. I'm not quite as keen on that one, but I also don't see any real reason not to. SpartHawg948 21:57, January 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll get started on them. -- Commdor (Talk) 22:02, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

"Mass Effect Wiki -- at the top!"
That is the caption for Sannse's newest blog about how Wikia is finally fully up to date with the new MediaWiki software. There are a few things that are interesting, mainly with one about Wikia images now will be showing up in Google and other search engines more, meaning more of the pics here will get seen, but what I thought I'd share was the pic. A Google search of everyone's favorite krogan. Figured I'd share what I found, I know technical details may not be interesting, but I'm sure the pic, and caption, would be interesting to share. Lancer1289 01:58, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

One blog that just doesn't get a break
Hey Spart, first how's the new job going? Unless I'm misinterpreting your comment, then you are high up in the chain, head of security?

Anyway something keeps bugging me, it's User blog:Pepoluan/Russian version of "Explanations and Excuses" is available!. There have been more instances of vandalism on it today, five as of right now, and all of the same type. Frankly, I feel it has gone on long enough. I'm thinking of upping the bans for the vandalism to a year, maybe perma, since this hasn't stopped. I've even though about deleting the blog to stop it or asking Pepoluan to take it down. I know that is going way beyond what we can do, but I'm starting to get really annoyed with this. So I'm looking for your opinion on this as well. Lancer1289 20:48, January 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * You could always ask Pepoluan to turn off commenting for that particular blog. On the editing screen, there's a check box at the top for the blog's creator to enable/disable comments. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:55, January 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it's head of security for a branch. As for my opinion, I think Commdor's suggestion says about right. See if Pepoluan wants to turn off commenting. Upping the ban won't stop this from happening, unfortunately. SpartHawg948 05:11, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've already dropped him a message after it happened for the fifth time today, so I'm hoping that he will reply quickly. Lancer1289 05:25, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'm guessing you couldn't see the last comment to delete it? That does seem to be an issue with some blogs with comments not showing up, especially ones that need to be deleted like that. Maybe you can answer a puzzle that I've had on my mind lately. Why do people constantly vandalize the same forum, blog, or page time after time after time? To me it just doesn’t make any sense to me so maybe you can grant some light on it. My theory is that it is just one person and a group of friends that vandalize the same pages to try and annoy the people that maintain the sites. Lancer1289 06:23, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no idea whether or not I could see the last comment to delete it. I was watching the NHL All-Star Draft when it was posted. By the time I refreshed the page to see what had been going on, it had already been posted and deleted. As for why, I have no special insight into the matter. It's more than likely one person or a group of people, but of course that is the "who", not the "why". SpartHawg948 06:32, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well I guess that some people can only have fun at other people's expense, having run across quite a few of them. I guess we'll just have to roll with the punches on this one, again. Lancer1289 06:42, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Speculation Policy
Since this came up in a recent discussion, I believe there needs to be a change to the current speculation policy given actions we have done in the past. We do revert speculation in articles whenever it shows up so there is a current problem with the policy and our actions. The main issue brought up in the discussion was the policy says, It is clearly marked as being speculation, either under a “speculation” heading or with the sentence “some speculate that—” at the beginning of the paragraph. We have had instances of that in the past where it has gotten reverted and we do revert it on a regular basis. I think we do need to change that policy to say that we don't allow speculation except when it does have a reliable source. Or not at all, which would be more consistent with past actions on the site. Your thoughts on this? Lancer1289 18:56, January 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * First, I've been quiet on the issue thus far, but I don't think it's speculation to say that we see a female turian in Evolution. It seems blatantly obvious to me. As for the speculation policy, I think that the item you quote is fine to stay. After all, we use that bit all the time in article trivia sections when speculating as to possible references (as every mention of a possible reference is speculation, with only devconfirmed references being fact). I see no reason whatsoever to remove it. SpartHawg948 04:23, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

AudioBox Template
I've finished the AudioBox Template and yay/nay voting is open. I'd like your input, please. --Swooshy 23:05, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I promise that you'll have my input, but it won't be today. I'm at the point where I'm so tired that remaining still while I type this is hard, and amidst this weaving to and fro, I'm pretty sure that at least two or three of the things I'm seeing in front of me right now aren't really there. So I'm going to collapse onto my bed, then tomorrow, after I take care of some worky-work type training nonsense that will let me do bad things to bad people, I'll pop on over and take a looksee, and offer my opinion. I'm looking forward to seeing it, just not right now. SpartHawg948 08:54, February 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one that gets schizophrenic when missing sleep. Anyway, take your time, there's no rush. --Swooshy 12:56, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

Protection
Hey Spart, I have a quick question for you. Given the recent spree of vandalism on the Forum:Index, Commdor approached me on semi-protecting it. Given the page is only edited very, very infrequently; I really don't see a problem putting protection on it. I know that we protect articles very infrequently, but given the massive amount of vandalism recently, six times in the last three days, and the fact that the page is only really supposed to be edited very infrequently, I really don't see a problem with protecting it. Lancer1289 01:13, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't really see any reason to protect it. Five times in three days? Six times in four days? I've seen much, much worse without ever resorting to protecting pages. Protecting the page is an outright admission that the vandal has won, forcing us to resort to a last-ditch option that is extremely rarely used. I honestly just don't see the need to protect because of one bored individual, which is all this appears to be. SpartHawg948 01:57, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well when you put it that way, it does shine a different light on it. Lancer1289 01:58, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Pay no attention to my name, it was a mistake.

Just wondering, isn't it only fair that we mention Halo's High Charity on Omega? They ARE similar.
 * See Talk:Omega. I can't see what fairness has to do with it. Omega is similar to many, many space stations in sci-fi, not just High Charity. SpartHawg948 10:24, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Research Page
Since this happened before the disastrous Series page, I thought I'd inform you about another page that I plan on implementing. The page Forum:Research Page is a planned page for a Research article. To summarize the page, it will consolidate the various research projects that are spread all over the wiki across nine pages. Currently Research redirects to the Upgrade Guide, and while that does list all of the places where you can get the upgrades, it doesn't list what they are. Also I can't remember where the discussion was, but there was a suggestion for a proper research page consolidating the information. So your thoughts an opinions are of course welcome, but I do plan on moving this forward with this tomorrow or Friday at the latest. Lancer1289 18:26, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey Spart, just another quick note about this. I plan on making the article and doing some cutting down in the articles I mentioned, which I just realized I failed to mention in my original message. What I do plan to cut is also linked in the forum page above. I plan to go through with this tonight about 10pm CST so if you could just give it a once over to avoid the incident I mentioned above. Lancer1289 14:59, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yup. Gave it a once-over a while back, and saw no pressing need to comment. SpartHawg948 20:39, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

ralok
I understand that you've blocked someone by the name of "ralok" from ME Wiki - I'm sure you remember him. I understand why you did as I've read the "commentary" that lead to it, and I'm not here to justify what he said, but I'd just like to the duration of the block. I'm an administrator at Dead Space Wiki, where he has recently become a regular, and the first thing he did was tell me that he was blocked here and why. He also seems to really regret what he said to you, as whenever he mentioned you he made sure he clarified the context of anything that could be percieved as insulting or hateful. He also told me that you've had some problems at Barsoom Wiki, but didn't go into that too much. Anyway, I think the intended purpose of blocking a user is to get them to reflect on their actions and change, and I believe he's done that. I'm not trying to tell you how to conduct business here, but if you'd consider at least reducing the duration of the block, I don't think he'd make you regret it. Thank you. --L B C C C P 05:01, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * He's already made me regret it. I went to another wiki where he had, as it turns out, recently been made an admin, and tried to contribute. It turns out that he had been accusing unregistered users who had spoken out against his being made an admin of secretly being me trying to derail his candidacy. When I made my presence known and tried to make it clear that I wanted to go about my business in peace and just keep things cool and professional, he started going on the offensive. Long story short, it ended with him flat-out stating that the one and only reason he was banned from the ME Wiki is because I'm some sort of intolerant jerk who can't stand other people having opinions of their own. And when I reminded him of why he was banned, he went berserk and began claiming I was the one being rude to him. All I was doing was trying to have a polite conversation. I stated several times that we were both entitled to our opinions, and neither of us was right or wrong, but he went off the deep end. This was pretty recently, too. I sensed no regret whatsoever, not even a sense that he understood and accepted why he was banned. I see no reason to reduce the length of his ban. SpartHawg948 07:07, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Addendum - I must confess, based on the above comment here, I headed on over to the Dead Space Wiki (second time in a few days, the first being on a completely unrelated matter to determine the veracity of a piece of supposed trivia on the Collectors vs Enhanced Stalkers or somesuch), and I do love what kind things you had to say about me. Flattery will get you nowhere, you know! :P
 * Levity aside, I would suggest that, rather than taking either ralok's word or my word at face value, you see for yourself. Some of what he says is more or less true, but the important thing to note is that he leaves little bits and pieces out. Did I tell the Bureaucrat of the Barsoom Wiki that I wouldn't recommend making ralok an admin, as ralok claims? I sure did. I did so, however, after Gnostic asked me for my opinion of ralok. Kind of a big detail to leave out. (You can find all the relevant details here.) As for the Barsoom Wiki itself, you can see our brouhaha here and here. In the first, despite my efforts at conciliation, and my trying to point out that we were both entitled to our opinions, ralok goes off on me for reasons unknown. In the second, he accuses unregistered users of secretly being me. I find this most humorous, as he and his friends are the ones always accusing me of stalking them. The word paranoia springs to mind... Anywho, as stated previously, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Mine is no more or less valid than yours, though I will refrain from calling you names or criticizing your methods of administering your wiki. A little of the same in return would be nice, but is not mandated. And again, don't just take my word for it, or ralok's word for it. Please, feel free to examine the matters fully (I'd also recommend reading all of ralok's user talk, including the massive section that was deleted during a previous ban he received from Tullis). That should give you a clearer picture. SpartHawg948 09:09, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I hadn't seen all of that. Also, last night there was a bit of a similar confrontation between ralok and another user whom he accused of suppressing his opinion and it ended with me letting him off with a warning. I don't entirely understand, as sometimes he's a really valuable membner and can contribute a lot and other times he flies off the handle and does the things that get him into trouble. And by the way, I have no problem with you. Lancer is the one who banned me from here with really no justification and who I think has had the power of being an administrator go to his head. I initially said that I had a problem with you so that ralok wouldn't proceed to engage me in a similar talk page dialogue regarding how you have it out for him and tell me more how you throw around 'defamation.' I just want to work on the Wiki which I've been trusted to help lead; I don't want outside problems dragged to me, and I'm sure no administrator does. Personally, I think Mass Effect Wiki is better than it was was Tullis seemed to lead it a couple years ago, and I'm also impressed that you have 13,000 edits in just over three years. Thank you for the information - I'll be more strict with him in the future. --L B C C C P 19:13, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, I "banned [you] from here with really no justification" Well then if you are banned then why does nothing show up in the block log for you. You have never been blocked by me or anyone else, and I've had only one interaction with you that I can recall. As to "and who I think has had the power of being an administrator go to his head" I have not let it go to my head and frankly I find that 100% insutling which is against the guidelines for instulting other users. I would like an apology for instuling me and for making false accusations when the evidence is clearly against you. I would offer the same in this situation. Lancer1289 19:19, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, as I stated above, I don't expect you to take my word as the God's Honest Truth or anything, nor would I hope you take ralok's word as such. Things like this nearly always turn into one person's word vs another's, which is why I prefer merely providing the relevant links and saying "Here's my side, but don't take my word for it. See for yourself and reach your own decision, even if you decide I'm in the wrong." I actually remembered some more links you might find telling, namely this one, though I think by now a clear trend has emerged.

As to what you are describing happening on your wiki, I can only say that regrettably, that's about what we saw of ralok here too. Generally productive and a valuable member of the community, but flying into rages at the drop of a hat, and at times, the hat drops pretty often. As for your referring to me negatively in order to prevent unpleasantness, all I can say is... fair enough! That's actually pretty darn clever, and I commend you for it. To quote my hero, Homer Simpson, it was a plan "fiendishly clever in all it's intricacies." Now, as to the rest of the message: First of all, thank you, Your words are too kind, and I'm pretty sure that they are much too generous. I consider myself but a pale imitation of Tullis as far as administration goes, but it's very nice to hear you speak well of the wiki under my (more or less) benign hand. As for the edits, what can I say? I'm a go-getter. :)

And I would be remiss if I didn't attempt to settle a possible dispute while I'm here. I could be mistaken, but my impression is that LBCCCP was likely banned on an anonymous account, and this is what is being referred to. If so, clearly no insult is present, nor was one intended, nor can one even be construed, and as such, an apology would be unwarranted. I could be mistaken, but that's the sense I'm getting here. SpartHawg948 20:30, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think the confrontation between Lancer has been resolved, so thanks for the interjection. You were right in your assumption of what had happened. Africa isn't quite on the same page as everywhere else when it comes to internet networking, which makes Nigeria so fit for scamming people online :P Well I'll be getting back to "my" wiki now, but before I go I'd like to relay a message to the American Armed Forces on behalf of the greater-African community:

Don't waste your time with Somalia or Egypt; Somalia will piss someone off with less to lose and will be raided and subjugated/bombed off the map, and Egypt may be under martial law for a while and less than pleased with America's role in supporting Hosni Mubarak for 30 years, but they won't try anything. The best thing you can do is raise vacation package prices to Cairo.

Thanks for the understanding and I apologise for starting a bit of an incident; it was not my intention to do so. I visit ME Wiki almost every day for one reason or another, so I'll be around. You should give Dead Space a chance - it's like a non-RPG Mass Effect mixed with Donnie Darko and 28 Days Later, if you've seen those. --L B C C <font color="Black">C <font color="Lightblue">P 04:20, February 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have not seen either of those, but I have been thinking about trying Dead Space, and this may be just what I needed to try it! As for the other tidbit: We're kinda already involved with Somalia, what with the massive international fleet combating pirates and terrorists there, and I really don't see Egypt being an issue. The military, which is ruling the country now, is still pretty darn pro-US (they know where their bread is buttered, and who gives them shiny new weapons/protection from hostile countries in the area), and even if they were to contemplate trying something, Israel is right next door. And even though Bibi (Netanyahu) and Barry (Obama) aren't the best of friends, Israel is still our #1 ally in the region. SpartHawg948 06:54, February 13, 2011 (UTC)

I can't argue with your logic. And I'm impressed by how well versed you are in foreign affairs, not that I was expecting you not to be, just that at least in the case of the South African military, most soldiers are there to point and shoot or do whatever job it is that they are trained to do without knowing why or really seeming to care. Either you're the exception or that's why America is trusted with the "big stick," I believe it's called. --<font color="Red">L <font color="Gold">B <font color="Green">C <font color="White">C <font color="Black">C <font color="Lightblue">P 08:21, February 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * A little of both, I'm sure. I do read quite a bit more than the average American, I'm sure, and try to keep up on the news and foreign affairs, but a lot of the people I know are surprisingly well-versed on the matters, even some of the people you'd never suspect. As for why we get the big stick, I tend to agree with Dinesh D'Souza. We take on the role of world police because, if not America, then who? Clearly, there has to be someone keeping some semblance of order - keeping North Korea from rolling over South Korea, trying to stop piracy on the high seas, protecting small countries from larger and more aggressive neighbors, and the like. The UN has shown itself to be disturbingly ineffective in this role, due in no small part to the ability of any one of the five permanent members of the Security Council to veto anything (China and Russia, after all, rarely see eye-to-eye with the US, UK, and France), and (meaning no offense to natives of these nations) can we really trust China or Russia to do it? China has a clear history of aggressive expansion at the expense of its smaller neighbors, and literally the only thing keeping this fate from befalling Taiwan is the USA, and Russia under Putin similarly has quite the reputation as an international bully. Well, enough of my rant. I'll close now, and thank you again for your kind words. I'm glad I impressed you, as opposed to underwhelming you! :) SpartHawg948 08:32, February 13, 2011 (UTC)

You're a power crazy asshole
Hey I think you should change the name of the wiki from "Mass Effect Wiki" to "SpartHawg948's and Lancer1289's Mass Effect Wiki (No one else can edit)". That would clear up a lot of things with new users and save them a whole lot of time editing, cos it would only get deleted if they did anyway! And SpartHawg you've got no justification to say "I have no patience whatsoever with crybabies, whiners..." when you're the biggest fucking whiner on this wiki. Jeez as soon as I read some of your posts around the wiki you came off as a total prick. You're condescending, pompous, rude (and I know I'm being rude now but you deserve it). You really are a power crazy asshole and you and Lancer are definately abusing your power as admins. A wiki is a collaborative effort between MANY editors, not just between two megalomaniac admins.

Well anon from this it looks to me like you are the true "crybaby".User:Sniperteam82308


 * Sigh* Why don't people understand how much word does it take to be an admin? Maintaining the Wiki is hard, especially when/if it is a Wikia of something popular and often gets bombarded by noobs and rabid fans. Of course admins should be strict, imagine what would happen if they let others do whatever they please. Besides, site policies aren't hard to read and follow. And finally, the strictest admins that I know are still on Narutopedia. There, they don't let you create userpages and blogs, or upload images without a detailed license description, which I find justified, too, because Naruto fanbase is sure even crazier and otherwise would overrun the Wiki, flooding it with fandom stuff and fanart. --Kiadony 08:28, February 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm frankly at a loss about what to say. Kiadony is correct in that it is hard being and admin, but at the same time, edits are usually undone for a very good reason and anyone is of course free to say something about it. We can justify edits, and edits counter to the MoS and established guidelines need to be undone or adjusted as necessary. There are a number of people who edit here who help with the site, and sometimes, as shocking it may be to you, their edits stay and nothing is done about it. Here's another surprise, sometimes edits are undone by people who aren't admins either for various reasons. There are many people who are both registered and unregistered who make this wiki a better place, but at the same time edits need to be looked over to see if they conform to the standards that have been established. If they don't, then they have to be undone or modified depending on the situation.
 * There are a number of things that were completely uncalled for in that comment that I also don't know what to say about it but a warning about the language and banning policies has been dropped. I'll be interested to see what Spart's response to this will be. Lancer1289 14:55, February 21, 2011 (UTC)

Sweet! I LOVE what happens every time I go away for a day or two! Anarchy and yelling and bad words aplenty! Thank you, anonymous user, for justifying my actions with your stunning display of boorishness. If there were no users like you, there'd be no need for admins. But hey, enough of this! Let's discuss those points:


 * 1) Changing the wiki name to SpartHawg948's and Lancer1289's Mass Effect Wiki (No one else can edit). Now, my thoughts on the matter are that this would be a bad idea, because it's a pretty obvious fact that many people edit this wiki on a daily basis. I know for a fact that my edits are far outnumbered by those of non-admins, and I'm pretty sure this holds true even if you combine my edits with Lancers edits.
 * 2) I have plenty of justification to say what I say on my user page. Demonstrate to me how I am the biggest whiner on the wiki, if you please. I can think of at least one person more deserving of that title, though I won't name names, as that would be unkind.
 * 3) Finally, as to the charges that "You're condescending, pompous, rude (and I know I'm being rude now but you deserve it). You really are a power crazy asshole and you and Lancer are definately abusing your power as admins." Let me just say, if you think so, you don't know me. If you want, I'll take the kid gloves I wear off. Then we'll see who's condescending, pompous, and rude. Not to mention derisive, dismissive, vulgar, and just plain old mean. And if you want to see me abuse my power, you have but to ask. When I start banning users for no reason at all, not even flimsy ones, then you'll know I'm abusing my power. SpartHawg948 03:38, February 22, 2011 (UTC)

Storyline and Bridging DLC

 * Good day, Spart! Hope you're doing well.


 * I am unsure if this has been covered without my knowledge, but wouldn't it be a good idea if we included a section for the bridging DLC in the Storyline article? I'm specifically referring to Liar of the Shadow Broker, as it is, according to BioWare, the first piece of content that "bridges the gap" between ME2 and ME3, so by definition, it is a canonical part of the overarching plot; that is to say, it happens anyway.


 * We know there is at least one more such DLC on the way, so I'm guessing it would be a good idea to include them after the Suicide Mission bit of the Mass Effect 2 storyline (i.e. inbetween the Suicide Mission and Retribution), with a good summary of what happens in each one of them.


 * Just a suggestion from me. I think it would work, since this is canonical content after all. Awaiting your response. -- Fiery Phoenix 17:33, February 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that sounds like something worth pursuing. You're correct that these bridge the gap and are canonical. I'm envisioning something along the lines of the sections for the books and comics, which can most notably be seen in the first few sections of the Storyline II. If this is what you were thinking too, then great! If not, feel free to run whatever you were thinking of by me. But yeah, I totally agree with you that it would work and is worth doing. So consider this my seal of approval! :D SpartHawg948 19:46, February 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nice! I honestly didn't think you would see it as a necessary addition, but I'm glad I was wrong. :)


 * And yes, that's pretty much what I was thinking. However, it will probably be better suited after the suicide mission segment of ME2 and before the Retribution entry (so that it's part of the ME2 storyline), as I mentioned above. I could do it tomorrow when I'm free, but if someone else is willing to do it on my behalf, then be it! -- Fiery Phoenix 20:11, February 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that sounds good. Placing something as nebulous as the DLC into the Storyline could be a bit tricky, but I do think that it's better to place it after the Suicide Mission than anywhere in the ME2 info. Good call on that one. So yeah, no rush, feel free to write it at your convenience, assuming someone else doesn't get to it first. SpartHawg948 20:14, February 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Got it. Will try coming up with a decent summary of LOTSB and integrate it in. Thanks! -- Fiery Phoenix 20:24, February 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * You betcha! And thank you! The enthusiasm and initiative are much appreciated! :) SpartHawg948 20:28, February 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's done. I must say it turned out longer than I'd imagined, but I tried my best with it and hopefully it's an accurate, seamless summary covering the whole DLC. If you feel like making any changes to it, you don't even need to ask. Go ahead and do it. Still, I'd like to hear your opinion on it. -- Fiery Phoenix 13:45, February 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to jump in and suggest a couple of things. Personally I think it would be a good idea for any DLC Storyline sections to include a that depending on player choices, they can either take place before or after the ending of Mass Effect 2. At least for Lair, we don't know what the Arrival situation is yet. Casey Hudson has said in the past that over time DLC would go from assuming players hadn't finished to assuming that they had (saw it on YouTube, from a promotional event for Overlord). This might mean that Arrival will be post game only, in which case this will only apply to Lair, but it's worth considering.
 * Also, I'm not a fan of 'Lair of the Shadow Broker (Mass Effect 2)'. I think Lair of the Shadow Broker is enough, or if not Mass Effect 2: Lair of the Shadow Broker. I just think the use of brackets in a heading is ugly, that's all. JakePT 15:22, February 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Duly noted. Thanks for your input, Jake. Edited. -- Fiery Phoenix 16:49, February 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, if it hasn't been implemented already, the note idea JakePT suggested sounds good. SpartHawg948 19:02, February 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * We will have to do the same once Arrival hits. - Fiery Phoenix 19:12, February 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe not, if it's impossible to play it without completing the main story, just putting it at the end should be enough. JakePT 07:56, February 28, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome
Thanks for the welcome. Are you a bot or something?? Just joking.. immediately (1 min or so) after my signup you posted the welcome sign. Anyways.. pleasure in meet you. Ruphius 05:54, February 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * You betcha! I personally am not a robot, being distrustful of any machine that could be smarter than me (which is why I don't own a smart phone... clever little buggers!) but you are more or less correct. The welcome message is an automated function. When someone makes their first edit, they get a message like the one you got, signed by the most recently active admin, in this case me. That said, I'm pleased to make your acquaintance, and would like to personally welcome you and thank you for signing up! :) SpartHawg948 05:58, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks For The Message
Thanks. I don't suppose you could help with that issue? I can re-post here if you like (without the image of course).

--Tea Break 09:08, March 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * No problem, but the answer there is 'no'. I don't know nothing about no codes for no armor. I'm strictly an XBox 360 man when it comes to Mass Effect. I would perhaps recommend asking Lancer1289. SpartHawg948 09:14, March 3, 2011 (UTC)

Latin grammar on the Quarian page
I'm sure we can resolve this without an edit war. I've looked at the University of Notre Dame's Latin dictionary, as you said, for "quaerens", here: http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=quaer&ending=ens

As you can see, it says that it is a form of "quaero, quaerere, quaesii (or quaesivi), quaesitum" meaning "to seek, search for". I think you are being misled by that--it does not mean to say that quaerens means "to seek, search for"; that simply refers to the base meaning of the verb. Note that it will say the exact same thing for "quaerere": http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=quaer&ending=ere

Look down and you will see that "-ens" is listed as the present participle ending of the verb "quaerere". Not the infinitive. The present participle is the "ing" form.

For examples, consider some words derived from Latin present participles:
 * "Dormant", from the Latin "dormans, dormantis" i.e. "sleeping"
 * "Potent", from the Latin "potens, potentis" i.e. "having power"
 * "Current", from the Latin "currens, currentis" i.e. "running"
 * "Salient", from the Latin "saliens, salientis" i.e. "leaving"

Also, see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinitives#Latin_and_Romance_languages article on Latin infinitives. As it says, "in Latin, almost all verbs had an infinitive ending with -re".

And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participle#Latin on participles. As it says, "present active participle: present stem + -ns (gen. –ntis)".

--Lucius Voltaic 04:34, March 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, it's actually already an edit war, and has been for a couple of edits now. This is really something you should have done earlier. If you'd like, we can simply remove the entire thing altogether, or perhaps compromise and substitute "quaero" for "quaerens", as I'm sure neither of us would dispute the meaning of quaero. SpartHawg948 04:47, March 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't see how it's productive to argue about whether this is an edit war. Anyway, I would recommend you talk to a professor of Latin about this. But the compromise is a good idea.

--Lucius Voltaic 04:57, March 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I was not arguing about whether or not this is an edit war. I was flat-out stating that, per the policy of this site, it is an edit war. There is literally nothing to be argued here. It's a black-and-white site policy. Nor did I blame you for not bringing it up on a talk page. I merely said it should have been done sooner. I could have done so myself, this is true. It's not the norm for the site, as the normal convention is for the person who wants to make the change to bring it up if the change was reverted, but you are correct, I could have broken with convention and done so myself. However, I tend to dig in and become more combative than usual when the other party becomes rude or condescending, such as telling me to do research or to stop embarrassing myself, neither of which are called for in a conversation between two mature adults. SpartHawg948 05:02, March 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Again, I apologize for being rude. --Lucius Voltaic 05:05, March 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * It happens in these situations. Just please try not to let it happen again. Being rude to other users, while not quite on the same level of naughtiness as directly insulting other users or being profane towards them or anything, is still frowned up per site policy and the Community Guidelines and whatnot. I totally understand your frustration, being no stranger to Wiki-induced frustration myself, but keeping it in check is pretty important, as this site does tend to have stricter guidelines on the subject than most. SpartHawg948 05:11, March 7, 2011 (UTC)

Trivia on "Borr"
I already went over this with Lancer. As it is now, it is saying that what is in keeping with the naming system is that Borr is Odin's father. That is not what is in keeping with the naming system. What is in keeping with the naming system is that the planet was named after Odin's father. The sentence as it stands now has no reference to the planet whatsoever.

Besides, as Lancer agreed when we were discussing this, there is no policy that older wordings are automatically better. If you want to argue that my wording is worse, you may do so, but if you think it's just unnecessary, then that's no reason to delete it. --Lucius Voltaic 02:27, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * You did go over this with Lancer. However, that conversation is as-yet unresolved, so I can't really see the validity of using it as a justification. It's like me asking you to stop something I think is wrong but, before we reach an understanding, banning you. Then, when you ask why, I say "I already went over it with you." A one-sided resolution is not acceptable on this type of issue, especially when the other party is an admin (as Lancer is) who still has issues with your arguments (as Lancer does). Resolve the situation before using it to justify your actions. SpartHawg948 02:40, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * I was just referring to the fact that Lancer had said it was OK.


 * But anyway, let me explain. The phrase "in keeping with" is similar to the phrases "in accordance with", "in compliance with", etc. These phrases, including "in keeping with", all imply a conscious choice to conform to a certain standard. The standard in this case is, of course, "planets in the Asgard system are named after Norse gods"; those conforming to it are those who named the planets, not the Norse or their mythological figures. --Lucius Voltaic 02:44, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * (edit conflicted... again) Additionally, I do happen to believe that your wording is worse. It's clunky and doesn't read well at all. My revert was in no way predicated upon a belief that "older words are automatically better." This should be pretty obvious, given that at no point did I argue that "older words are automatically better" or anything even remotely approaching that logic. New words, as it turns out, are also not automatically better, and sometimes change is worse than the status quo. Your rewording, IMHO, left much to be desired, and was definitely a case where the status quo was better than the new version. SpartHawg948 02:48, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Jumping in here, but what I said was if you could reword it to where it wasn't clunky, then that in no sense of the word says that just because I don't have a problem with it, does not mean that someone else does and that by saying that I said it was OK is twisting my words. I did not have a chance to review it considering I've been just catching up, and now that I have, I still would have reverted it. I should also point out that Spart is higher on the food chain so to speak then me and is free to overrule me at any time. I should also mention that another user could have a problem with your rewording and revert it, then if you say that I OK'd it, I would have a big problem with that as I may not have seen it. Anyone is free to revert an edit and saying that I said it was OK implies that I saw it and then said OK. This is not always the case as I may be offline for whatever reason, and then you are twisting my words to justify something that I may not have been OK with. I said if you can reword it to make it not so clunky, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, I also said that I don't have a problem with the current version. And just to say it again, twisting my words to say that I OK'd something, when I may not have OK'd it as I may not have seen the content, is something taht I have a problem with. Then using that as a justification to say "well he said it was OK" so why did you undo it, is taking my words, twisting them, and taking them out of context. I again said that I would be OK with a change, even though I have no problem with the current version, if it could be made less clunkly, awkward, flow better, or anything else. That however, does not mean that anyone else can't have a problem with it as anyone is free to revert it. Lancer1289 02:59, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * @SpartHawg: Well, alright. I would be better able to fix the sentence if you would tell me what the criteria for "good wording" are--I thought my wording was unornamented but clear. As it is, the criteria sound like personal preference or "I'll know it when I see it", which is very difficult to work with.


 * @Lancer: Twisting your words? I don't think I was twisting your words. You said that if I could reword it to make it better, you would be OK with that. That's all I was referring to. I didn't mean to imply that you had given your seal of approval or something. And how was I supposed to know you hadn't even looked at the article in question? Pardon me for saying so, but that seems kind of irresponsible to me. --Lucius Voltaic 03:06, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * However you did imply that I said it was OK. As an admin, when you say that you discussed something with me, then more than likely the majority of the people on this site would take it as that I had OK'd it. Considering Spart is correct in that the discussion is currently still unresolved, using it as a justification for an edit doesn't help your case. And whno or what exaclty is irresponsible because that is confusing. Lancer1289 03:17, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * I mean that it seems irresponsible of you to discuss edits on a page before looking at the page. But if we can put all this behind us, I still believe that the sentence requires some sort of change. How about this: In keeping with the naming theme of the Asgard system, Borr is named after the father of the god Odin in Norse mythology. Or even just "of the Norse god Odin" as that implies mythology. --Lucius Voltaic 03:21, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * And I'm still confused. If you are talking about how I said a reword was OK, then I said that I still would have reverted it, I fail to see how that is irresponsible. I was planning to continue the discussion and work something out before an edit was made. So I fail to see how I'm the one who is irresponsible here. Lancer1289 03:30, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm just saying that you made a tentative statement before reviewing the facts. I honestly don't want to push this into an argument, though, all I want is to fix that darned sentence. --Lucius Voltaic 03:34, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * "In keeping with the naming theme of the Asgard system, Borr is named after the father of the god Odin in Norse mythology." works with me. As for it being a matter of personal preference, it is, just as much as your wanting to change a wording that has been acceptable to scores of editors for over a year prior to this is a matter of your personal preference. All I was concerned about was readability. Making it two sentences, with the second being the horrifically clunky "The planet's name thus follows the Norse naming theme of the Asgard system." did nothing to make the trivia clearer or more readable. The version you proposed on this page, and that I quote in this response, is far superior, and if Lancer has no objections, would be perfectly acceptable to me. SpartHawg948 04:11, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, scratch that. Let's slightly modify it, as it still seems a tad bit clunky. Maybe "In keeping with the naming theme of the Asgard system, Borr is named after the father of the Norse god Odin."? Does that work for you? The part about 'in Norse mythology' seems a bit redundant when we mention that Odin is a god. SpartHawg948 04:14, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think I suggested that very wording a little while back...so, yeah, that would be great. --Lucius Voltaic 04:19, March 9, 2011 (UTC)

I was going to remind you that I had asked for Lancer's input first, and to therefor hold off on making the edit until he had a chance to comment... but I see I'm too late. Fantastic... SpartHawg948 04:22, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * You don't have to get sarcastic with me just because I followed your recommendations. --Lucius Voltaic 04:27, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * No sarcasm was directed at you. More a generalized statement of wry frustration. As for the other part, I actually recommended we get Lancer's input before changing anything. If you'd followed my recommendations, the last few comments never would have happened, as this situation never would have occurred. SpartHawg948 04:29, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, considering you said "Scratch that" in reference to the post which included the part about Lancer... --Lucius Voltaic 04:34, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Negativ-o. The scratch that was a reference to the line I suggested using. This seemed obvious to me as the only part of the prior post I commented upon or posed an alternative to in the scratch that addendum was the actual quote. If I'd decided to leave Lancer out of the loop, I'd have specifically mentioned it. Something of that import always gets an explicit mention from me. Of course, you could have asked for clarification if you'd thought I was being vague. I'm always happy to clarify. SpartHawg948 04:38, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * I leave for an hour and a half and look what happens. Anyway after looking through it, I would have to say that Spart's sentence, "In keeping with the naming theme of the Asgard system, Borr is named after the father of the Norse god Odin" would probabaly be the best. Lancer1289 05:08, March 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * You think that's bad? Try leaving for a week or so. Every time I do, craziness seems to ensue. But hey, on the bright side, we've talked and talked and talked... and worked out a solution everyone can live with. Huzzah! SpartHawg948 05:11, March 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hooray for solving things with negotiation! Even if the length-of-negotiation-to-importance-of-result ratio is a bit high, that's life. --Lucius Voltaic 05:51, March 9, 2011 (UTC)

Please
Must you tear people apart every chance you get? If you did not see the respect how I presented it, that is fine, but ultimately that was the intent. Please accept it for what it was, blaming it on my incompetence if that pleases you. And yes, I realize you will see this as disrespectful. -- Shoggoth1890 07:38, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not tearing anyone apart. Trust me, you'd know if I was. Asking users to follow the same rules and procedures that everyone else, admins and bureaucrat included, follow is not tearing people apart. That terminology suggests malice aforethought, and I resent the implication that I engaged in any such behavior. SpartHawg948 07:52, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

You say that a lot, please demonstrate. -- Shoggoth1890 07:57, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Demonstrate what, exactly? SpartHawg948 07:58, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

The implication that what you do is nothing in comparison to what you can do. I've grown curious. -- Shoggoth1890 08:04, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Site language policies preclude any such demonstration. Rest assured, if I start spewing profanities and actually insulting people (I mean real insults, not just asking people to abide by site policies), then you'll know. To be completely honest, I don't like the person I become when I'm really angry. I can be abrasive under normal circumstances, but when I get really ticked off, I become deliberately and blatantly rude, demeaning, and hurtful. I see no need to try and dredge up that unpleasantness to satisfy anyone's curiosity.
 * Really, though: what did I possibly do to tear you apart? What was so horrible about what I said? All I did was call your edit inappropriate (it was) and ask you to abide by site policies (which everyone should be doing anyways, completely unbidden). SpartHawg948 08:10, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

Wording is everything. Subtle differences can radically change the subtext presented. I encounter this problem myself, so I accept any criticism on how I may state things.

I would not consider a curse filled rant to be tearing someone apart; it would just be a curse filled rant. If you truly wanted to communicate the policy to me, then you could simply state that clearly, such as: "Site policy dictates that removal of information be discussed beforehand". Your wording places it on a more personal level, and tries to tell me that my beliefs are wrong when clearly it is simply a difference of opinion about what is "respect". Perhaps you and I are from different cultures, displays of respect being a common difference cross-culture. -- Shoggoth1890 08:32, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * And I was stating policy clearly. That's literally all I was doing. I've found it most effective to make sure that people are aware that the reason I am stating policy clearly is because something they did merited my stating policy clearly. As such, when I state policy clearly, I make sure that I do so in a manner that communicates to them why I am doing so (which does tend to make it more personal). A personal message is (in my experience) always more effective than an impersonal recitation from rote. And, in all fairness, when did I ever tell you your beliefs were wrong? The only thing I can think of that comes close is when I answered your "Inappropriate no" (which I actually did find disrespectful, as it seemed to me that you were arguing site policy with me when it was a clear-cut case) with 'Inappropriate yes'. If there's something I'm forgetting where I did tell you your beliefs were wrong, please let me know. I can, however, recall no such occurrence. SpartHawg948 08:42, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

Again, subtle differences. Inappropriate vs. improper. Picture being back in school and receiving a paper back. If something was circled and the word "inappropriate" was added, it would carry the connotation of "uncalled for". If it were circled and the word "improper" added, it would carry the connotation of "not adhering to format". Although they mostly mean the same thing, secondary applications can cause hostile associations. Am I saying you should change? No. This is meant to be constructive criticism in "playing politics". Take it as you will or decide that it is not constructive.

"If your intent was, as you claim, to bring it back to my attention, surely the fastest and most effective way would have been to leave me a message, wouldn't it? I mean, then I'd even get a notification telling me to check my talk page!" This is an example of bringing it to the personal level. I never said bringing it to your attention was the 'intent', only that in the case that you had forgotten, seeing an article that you dispute a claim to would serve to bring it to your attention. You go on to say that I was arguing with you over policy, which I never did. My statement was to clarify my reason. Obviously I did not succeed, but I'll only explain it more if you want to hear it. -- Shoggoth1890 09:28, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Inappropriate does mean uncalled for. Your edit was uncalled for. The reason it was uncalled for was because it was improper in that it did not adhere to site policy. I chose my words with purpose. Inappropriate was what I meant, so inappropriate was what I said. I'd hope that my professors (no need to picture being back in school, seeing as I'm currently in school, as I stated earlier on in the discussion on the Talk:Quarian page! :P) would be similarly frank.
 * As for the second bit, I was responding to a statement you made, and attempting to inform you of a more suitable method of going about business. If, as you suspected, I'd forgotten, the best way to go about things would have been to leave me a message. Again, there was nothing insulting or derogatory about what I said. "[B]ringing it to the personal level" is not the same as tearing you down. And as for arguing policy, I'm fairly certain I already made clear why I thought this was what you were doing, and did so with the caveat that it seemed (meaning at the time, meaning in the past, meaning I no longer hold this opinion) that you were arguing over policy. Finally, is there any instance of my telling you your beliefs were wrong? (Hint - I'm big on calling people when they make statements about me I believe are unfounded, like this one, and really appreciate retractions of such statements if they in fact are unfounded. And while we're on the topic, I'm still pretty sure the claim I "tear people apart every chance [I] get" is similarly without a basis in fact). SpartHawg948 09:40, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, inappropriate was a correct word to use, I was speaking of its connotations. Playing politics. If it was not your intent to be insulting, then I apologize for my comment. My criticism of wording still stands however. The parts of your quote that were inappropriate were "as you claim", "surely", and "wouldn't it?" They are unnecessary and only contribute to an air of condescension. -- Shoggoth1890 10:03, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Playing politics? Now I'm afraid you've completely lost me. I was playing no such game, merely speaking in my role as bureaucrat, calling an inappropriate edit inappropriate. And you are correct that there was no intent to be insulting. As for my quote, I can assure you that at no point was any part of it, even the snippets you highlight, inappropriate. I put "as you claim" because you did claim to be (at least in part) mindful that I may have forgotten about the discussion, and you wanted your actions to jog my memory (even if it wasn't your "intent"), yet your actions didn't seem to reflect this. "Surely" is self-explanatory. Surely the fastest and most effective way to get my attention is by leaving me a message, isn't it? I cannot for the life of me see how using "surely" in that context could possibly be construed as inappropriate. And "wouldn't it?" also speaks for itself. I was inquiring as to whether or not my statement was factual and sensible. Again, no part of it was inappropriate, and certainly no part was meant to be condescending. If you read condescension into it, I'm sorry, but that was most definitely not the intent of my comment. And please, before you go around bandying about accusations that my comments are "inappropriate", please ensure that they are. Nothing I said, again, was inappropriate. Certainly not by the standards of site policy. SpartHawg948 16:16, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

Shoggoth, I see where you're coming from, but honestly I think you need to be a bit more thick-skinned about all of this. Some of SpartHawg's words may not have been chosen for maximum niceness, but he's not trying to insult you, nor do I think he's really doing it, trying or no. This is the internet, remember, where no one knows you're a dog; or more applicably, where no one can see that you're not cackling and rubbing your hands in anticipation of subtly insulting another editor. So try not to assume the cackling. --Lucius Voltaic 16:33, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hear, hear! I was beginning to wonder myself if I should point out the necessity of a thick skin here. I tend to operate under the assumption that everyone here is an adult, and as such, needs very little in the way of sugar-coating. I don't do sugar-coating, preferring frankness myself. As Lucius Voltaic pointed out, and I fully acknowledge, my words were not chosen for maximum niceness. (In my book, choosing words for maximum niceness = sugar-coating) He is also correct that at no time did I intend to be insulting, and from his 'outside looking in' (or 'man on the street', 'unbiased third party', whatever you want to call it) perspective, they are not. This gets back to my earlier comment - if I were trying to be insulting, you'd know it, because I'd actually be insulting you. As I have no wish to insult you, condescend to you, or any such, I did nothing of the sort. On the contrary, I was frank, direct, and straight to the point, as I tend to think a good way to show respect to another person is to be direct with them, and not to get wishy-washy with language. As such, I was floored when you left me a message asking me "[m]ust you tear people apart every chance you get?", as I'd done nothing of the sort. Being accused of things I've not done tends to get me on edge, as evidenced in this thread.
 * I must also thank Lucius Voltaic for the insightful post which has, in my opinion, done much to further this conversation and hopefully push it into a productive direction. Generally, unbidden comments into an issue between two people can go one of two ways: they can either greatly aid the situation, becoming a boon to both users and reflecting well on the user who left the comment, or they can be counterproductive, doing nothing to further the discussion and causing nothing but frustration to those involved. This comment was definitely the former. Thanks! :) SpartHawg948 21:07, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

I acknowledge your right to be rude, hence my earlier comment. The criticism was added as something to consider in case you did not want to come off rude. If, as you claim, you cannot understand how the addition of a statement of presupposed certainty followed by a rhetorical question is condescending, then surely the best way to find out would be to ask your english professor, wouldn't it? Certainly not asking the yokel on the internet that you can brush off. I don't need words sugar-coated, I simply prefer them not arsenic-laced. And no, you do not have thick skin, and you do not treat people like adults. I'm giving up on any sort of politeness. You can't even bring yourself to offer the courtesy of apologizing if something was taken the wrong way, unable to consider the possibility that it was source-end error and must have been the incompetence of the listener. For the sake of the wiki, I truly hope you consider Commdor or even Lucius to be admin. Someone with has a modicum of tact.

For the record, I did raise the issue on the talk page before deleting it. Waited 10 days for refutation and none came. How long does one have to wait? If I wanted to make sure a page is eternally preserved, do I just have to post on a discussion without posting my resolution? Then when someone deletes something, tell them they have violated policy because the discussion was ongoing, despite the last post being a year ago? Are you really so much into asserting your dominance on these pages that every bit must smell of your urine? -- Shoggoth1890 04:13, March 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well...um. --Lucius Voltaic 04:46, March 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Someone with a modicum of tact... such as yourself? Nothing I said to you was "arsenic-laced". If you can't take blunt words and a little criticism of your actions, you need to reconsider using the internet. You are indeed mighty thin-skinned if you are so offended by words that even an impartial observer finds inoffensive that you must demand apologies. And really! Demanding an apology from me after yourself refusing to apologize for your baseless and dare I say shameless accusations. I've yet to see you back up your claim that I ever told you your beliefs were wrong. And I've similarly not seen any proof of this constant desire you claim I have to tear you down. If you want an apology, maybe you should consider your own words and actions first, eh? Talk about a lack of courtesy. At least I don't wander around casually sullying your name with B.S. accusations that have no basis in fact.


 * And no, you did not "raise the issue on the talk page before deleting it." A cursory examination of the pertinent information will show this, and will also display your woefully inadequate grasp of reality on the matter. You did not wait "10 days for refutation and none came." I clearly stated I'd review the pertinent material. This was a response. Not a refutation, but certainly a response. You were seemingly aware at least of the possibility that my failure to respond may have been the result of the discussion having slipped my mind, yet you failed, I repeat failed to bring the issue up again on the talk page before deleting the info. Again, a simple review of the page history makes this abundantly clear. As for asserting dominance, yes. That's clearly what I'm doing. Admitting I was wrong, removing the info I had supported, and adding the info you brought to light is clearly me asserting my dominance so that "every bit must smell of [my] urine." Grow up, and leave the ridiculous hyperbole at home where it belongs. SpartHawg948 04:51, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Lucius Voltaic, I am genuinely sorry. You left a message which I thought could only carry the discussion into a positive and constructive direction, and then the response is this horrendous display of vitriol on the part of the other party. I know you and I haven't always gotten along, but know that you have my genuine appreciation and respect. I have nothing but respect for anyone who attempts to clearly and calmly mediate and/or arbitrate a dispute (just ask Arbington, the arbitrator extraordinaire), and you did just that. Unfortunately, it appears to have been for naught. Thanks anyways for attempting to be the voice of reason and civility. SpartHawg948 04:55, March 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * I try. ;) --Lucius Voltaic 05:02, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict x2) Um would be a good descriptor for that last comment. The entire last sentence of that was not only uncalled for, but frankly insulting no matter how you put it. I have seen many times over Spart communicating in a calm, peaceful, tact manor, despite incrusts, language, and a host of other things thrown at him. I honestly can't see one thing in his comments that "arsenic-laced" or anything like that. There are a few times where he has chewed people out, and trust me, you would know when that time is. This is not anywhere on the same planet, let alone the same galaxy as that level. Spart is correct in stating that nothing he said was inappropriate, or against policy, yet however some parts of your comment were. His comments are actually quite neutral and small phrases like "as you claim" I also can't see how they are inappropriate or anything else. You claimed something, and he was pointing that out. Every piece you site is again neither inappropriate or frankly rude. There are a number of things in your comment that are just outright rude and frankly uncalled for. You interpreted his comments the way you wanted to, which to say is him being rude and insulting you, yet now two outside people say they weren't rude and as I've stated many times here, there are literally billions of ways of interpreting text. Because you are in an argument with him, you chose to interpret Spart's comments as rude and insulting, yet in conversation every day I would hear that and wouldn't find it insulting, or rude for that matter. You must approach interpreting text with an unbiased and neutral head, for lack of a better term at the moment, otherwise it will lead to misinterpretations based on a biased reaction. I do not see one reason why Spart should apologize in this instance
 * As to discussions, as long as it is ongoing, then it is still valid as new information could develop or others could lend their voice to the discussion. 10 days is not unheard of for something to go unresolved, sometimes months have passed before a decision is reached. Lancer1289 05:05, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Better beware, you two, lest ye be the next to be accused of being tactless monsters who belittle people for their beliefs, seek to destroy all who oppose you, and pee on everything! :P SpartHawg948 05:27, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * (In an aside, if I really was as into dominance or whatever as this guy claims, wouldn't the natural response be to ban him forever and then gloat about it on his talk page, after having stripped him of the ability to respond, all while thumping my chest and uttering ridiculous jock phraseology? Of course, I'm not going to do that, but maybe I should, just to humor him and his crackpot theories about me... right?) :P SpartHawg948 05:30, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes, and don't forget to rename the wiki "SpartHawg948's and Lancer1289's Mass Effect Wiki (No one else can edit)", as the poster some way above so eloquently suggested. XD --Lucius Voltaic 05:34, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I totally forgot about that! Consider it done! Oh, and also consider that the last edit you'll ever make on this wiki!!! Spart and Lancer rule! Everyone else can SUCK IT!!! (Yes, Arbington, that includes you!) :P
 * (Just kidding... or am I? Tune in later to see if the power trip happens...) SpartHawg948 05:37, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict I think a few others have suggested that as well, along with "Lancer1289's Mass Effect Wiki", and "SpartHawg948's Mass Effect Wiki". :) As to both comments however, yes that would be to be a good way to go about it. :) Lancer1289 05:38, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Not even going to try anything at all anymore. Words put in mouth blah blah yadda yadda(fill in with whatever you want). I guess everyone needs to have their "welcome to the internetz" moment. I suppose that nearly two decades of being on the internet without experiencing it was a good run. -- Shoggoth1890 05:49, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nearly two decades on the internet? Gee, I had completely forgotten how that entitled one to "give up on any sort of politeness"... --Lucius Voltaic 05:57, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) No idea what that means. All I see is a thin-skinned individual who couldn't accept the fact that they were asked to play by the same rules as everyone else. And apparently the rest of the community (or at least two other members who saw fit to make their voices heard) see it more or less the same way. But whatever. I'm still waiting for proof to back the b.s. claim that I told you your beliefs were wrong, or the b.s. claim that I tore you apart, and do so to people every chance I get, or the b.s. claim that I assert my dominance to a ludicrous degree everywhere (laughable considering that this discussion started after I flat-out admitted you were right and I was wrong!). And still also waiting for an apology for even one of those b.s. claims, let alone all three. But do what you want to do, and use your crazy internet speak (or is it 'internetz speak') as you see fit. And above all else, keep on keepin' on, and don't ever let 'em change you, Moonbeam. SpartHawg948 06:00, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just dropping in here to say a few things. First of all, Mr. Shoggoth, it appears you believe that Spart, a respected admin of this wiki, has been rude to you, and has apparently made "arsenic-laced comments". I assure you that in my rather short time with this wiki, I have never known SpartHawg948 to be purposely rude or to abuse his power as an admin. I hope you can move past this little disagreement, and productively edit this wiki in the future. Your contributions will be welcome. Second, nice job stepping in Lucius. Oftentimes all a conflict needs is a little bit of arbitration to smooth things over. Third, I was surprised, and indeed honored, to see my name brought up a few times as an example of a productive editor and arbitrator of conflicts. Thanks for the compliments! Arbington 06:16, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(I think I used that term right)Even my previous statements misread? This will hopefully not be misread: *drops to knees* Please forgive me. I humbly ask that this end. I was wrong to suggest that I saw your posts as passive-aggressive. My defenses to the "welcome to the internetz" phenomenon must have eroded during my years of having not experienced it. Please accept that I did not have issues with rules not being applied to me, but rather with my own flawed perception of your posts. -- Shoggoth1890 06:29, March 18, 2011 (UTC) Arbington, you certainly are talented, thank you for that. Lucius indeed did a good job as well. -- Shoggoth1890 06:33, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Yeah, no... it's not so much that your prior comment was misread, it's that your last two comments are completely different, both in tone and in content. The earlier comment came across as snide and dismissive (what with the "Not even going to try anything at all anymore. Words put in mouth blah blah yadda yadda(fill in with whatever you want)." bit and all), whereas the second one seems more or less genuine. Rest assured, I feel no animosity or anything towards you personally, I merely resent (rather strongly) rubbish accusations being made against me, such as allegations that I must seek to tear people down at every opportunity, or that I tell people their beliefs are wrong, or that I somehow assert my dominance to a ridiculous (and apparently dog-like) degree (especially when I've demonstrated this is not the case through my own actions very recently, as is the case here). There is no need to ask for personal forgiveness, though as stated before, retractions of the aforementioned accusations would be appreciated (though not mandated, of course. I'm not going to force anyone to do anything, or be so petty as to threaten bans for nonsense like this). SpartHawg948 06:39, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I can't say I was expecting that&mdash;you've impressed me, Shoggoth. It's not often that someone has the strength of character to apologize for this sort of thing on the internet. --Lucius Voltaic 06:44, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

I think that remaining as an editor is a bad idea. No place on the internet or in the real world have my starements been misconstrued to such a degree. Two of my posts were inappropriate outbursts from frustration which I've not quite experienced before. I request that a ban be placed on me. I do not want the frustration anymore and a ban will remove any temptation to edit. But please, make no comments related to me after the ban, having no way to respond to them would be maddening. -- Shoggoth1890 06:54, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * You know you can edit without an account, right? --Lucius Voltaic 07:01, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Drat, if you hadn't said anything I could have gone on in ignorance of it :P. I had thought they applied to the IP rather than the name, and wouldn't have even tried to post off the account. -- Shoggoth1890 07:06, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * You seem like a reasonable enough type, I think you could fit in if you just chill out a bit. --Lucius Voltaic 07:10, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Requesting a ban on oneself is... highly unorthodox to say the least. I mean, it's not like I can really say 'no', as you are requesting it on yourself, it's just unusual, though I do seem to recall it happening at least once before. If this is still what you want, let me know. If not, no big deal. Rest assured though that you would still be able to respond to comments on your user page. Not being able to respond on your user page is a special condition, it isn't part of the "cookie-cutter" standard ban. The admin has to go out of their way to do it, and we only do it around here for really problem people who, after being banned, have demonstrated that they don't even deserve the ability to edit on their own user page, generally by being profane or verbally abusive towards others on their user page. So you'd still be able to respond and all. I tend to agree with Lucius Voltaic's last comment, though. SpartHawg948 07:16, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Lucius and Spart. Shoggoth, you should be able to go on editing with no real problems whatsoever. Indeed, getting off to a shaky start is often good. Thanks to this experience, you'll probably be quite mindful of the rules here at the wiki, and be quite the productive editor. Of course, if you feel a ban to be necessary, that's your choice, and I certainly won't try to stop you. Arbington 07:22, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that I start out reasonable enough, but things get redirected and misunderstood. Redirected like a "are you saying I'm fat" response to a fitness related gift. Because the communication frustration is so much stronger here than anywhere else, it is best that I don't edit at all, as history has shown somewhere things get messed up. A ban would help that. Better to remove the chance of a situation than to punch someone in the face because they aren't hearing what you say. -- Shoggoth1890 07:50, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

If that's what you want... How long do you want the ban for? The norm is two weeks, but for the purposes of what you're asking, I'd suggest one year. Understand that you'd be able to ask to have the ban lifted at any time, provided you hadn't done something to get that privilege revoked. And of course you'll still be edit your own user talk page. SpartHawg948 08:01, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, a year sounds good. Gonna be a little frustrated at not being able to contribute at first, but think the long-run frustration will be much less.  Thanks in advance -- Shoggoth1890 08:13, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Rog-O. Again, you will still be able to edit your own talk page, and by all means, feel free to do so. And if at any time you'd like the ban undone, please don't hesitate to ask, as it is a voluntary ban (provided, of course, you don't do something really bad on your talk page or whatever). SpartHawg948 08:15, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Wow, I turn in for the night and look what I miss. I have to say the way this was resolved was…interesting to say the least. I think this is also the first time I’ve heard of this on this site. Still curious and an interesting solution to this. Lancer1289 14:02, March 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * For some reason I actually "enjoyed" reading this debate. I agree with Lancer that it ended rather interestingly. You're such a good spirit, Spart. If only I had the same patience as you... :P -- Fiery Phoenix 06:32, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

I try. Sometimes it's hard, but I do try my best. :) SpartHawg948 06:59, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

Bureaucrat
So if your a bureaucrat on ME Wiki. Would you be considered one for other wiki's like wookiepedia? Because when I go on there i'm still logged into my acount. --Saltpeter1 22:51, March 19, 2011 (UTC)

If you're asking whether or not Spart will maintain his administrative powers on a different wiki, the answer is no, unless he was also made an admin on that wiki as well. The accounts are the same, but not the editing records or the admin position. H-Man Havoc 03:44, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

Ok, just wondering. Thanks H-Man Havoc --Saltpeter1 03:50, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

Sunday
Hey Spart, I was just curious if you are going to be on much tomorrow? Lancer1289 03:22, March 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * About as much as I have been lately. Maybe a bit in the morning, and then again for a bit at night. SpartHawg948 05:41, March 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah ok. Well I plan to be "out of the office" so to speak for the vast majority of tomorrow. I am going to a friend's and plans at the moment either are playing video games, or spending a few hours working on things, then maybe paintballing. Weather permitting. Just figured I should inform you. Lancer1289 05:48, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

CDN on the Main Page
Letting you know, I plan to tackle presenting the Cerberus Daily News on the Main Page differently. In anticipation of the return of CDN reports in the week before Arrival is released, I've been fiddling with the Main Page to get ready. Long story short, a few aesthetic and technical issues have cropped up. So, instead of re-adding the original CDN section which displayed whole reports, I think it would be simpler to place this notice, which alerts readers of the new reports and links to the CDN pages. This would also be used during the final CDN reports before ME3's launch. Any objections? -- Commdor (Talk) 19:19, March 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * No objections but I do have a few other concerns that are more appropriate for a forum post in the Projects Forum for this. Lancer1289 21:39, March 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * I like it. Lancer seems to have some concerns though, so I'd like to see these concerns aired and addressed before anything is finalized. That said, not having seen the aforementioned concerns yet, I like this proposal. SpartHawg948 05:11, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Removed by author. Lancer1289 16:50, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I did not want them here. I wanted them in the (as you yourself stated) more appropriate forum post in the Projects Forum. As such, please, no responses here Commdor. I'd really rather avoid cluttering my talk page with something that belongs elsewhere. SpartHawg948 14:24, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Apologies for the misinterpertation. Removing and reposting to Forum:Reintroducing CDN. Lancer1289 16:50, March 21, 2011 (UTC)

Mass vandalism by Istilldontcares on 3/28/11
Hopefully I'm going through the correct channels on this. Sending this to both you and Lancer1289.

Was browsing the Mass Effect wikis and stumbled across one of the vandalized pages (was reading on Urdnot Wrex). Noticed that user "Istilldontcares" made the last edit. Checked their profile and subsequently their "contributions" and looks like they're going at it in quite the number. I reverted one but I'd imagine you and/or Lancer1289 have a better way to revert all those?

Thanks and goodluck!

AnimeKid 09:58, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not an admin, but I do have rollback power, I managed to rollback all 90+ edits within a couple of minutes. I'll keep an eye out for a bit longer until I'm sure he's gone. When Lancer or Spart get back they can get the banhammer out.JakePT 10:00, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Look what we missed last night
Well I don't know if you logged in last night, but apparently we both missed an extremely massive spree of vandalism by two different users, Imoredontcaresnow and Istilldontcares which started about 4:39 CST. The latter managed over 342 vandalism edits over the course of about 2 hours before being slapped with a block from Angela. The immaturity of this is frankly well beyond what I expected for people. I thought I had seen everything, but apparently not. My suspicion is that it is still the same person that I dealt with a week ago, and he just can't grow up, act mature, be a reasonable person, or is someone who gets his kicks from undoing the hard work of others. I still can't believe what he did, but after this I don't think anything will surprise me anymore. If you want to see everything that happened, then don't bother with the RC as you won't be able to see everything that happened. All I can say is that Angela and VegaDark managed to get blocks in place, and JakePT, Teugene, Commdor, H-Man Havoc, Dammej, FifthDisiple, and Blind Wolf managed to undo the damage. Something tells me even you haven't seen something like this before, but then I could be wrong. I'll be on watch for the rest of the day to see if he comes back, and I already have my eye on someone.

Also with regards to H-Man, you may wish to drop by his blog as he has new comments given the spree committed earlier. I have already given several responses on the matter, but I think you will want to make your voice heard as well given his recent comments on the matter. Although his theory about how this happened is quite interesting, and extremely reasonable given the evidence at hand. Lancer1289 17:54, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Addendum: And my suspicions about the guy I was watching proved correct, and he couldn't even get it right this time. Anyway you might also want to check the Deletion log for what else happened. Lancer1289 18:16, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Addendum 2: And apparently the attacks are now turning personal, just check out the latest rendition to my user page by the user name. I've done other things in the meantime about this issue. Lancer1289 18:42, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Addendum 3: Apparently it hasn't stopped and the guy still keeps coming back. Also I am questioning whether or not to take down the protection on the Illusive Man page that one of the members of the VSTF put up. Since I don't have experience with this issue in particular, I'll leave the decision to you. Lancer1289 21:28, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Addendum 4: Last one I hope, I was wondering what you were thinking about the IP bans. Lancer1289 21:41, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Addendum 5: Ok I lied. Commdor asked me to protect his user page, and after tossing the issue back and forth for about 10 minutes, I decided that I would for 24-hours. I did not protect my own user page, or anyone else's, as I have no experience with something like this, so I'm winging it. What is your opinion about protecting user pages as I can think of reasons for both sides of the argument. I hope that I won't extend this to Addendum 6. Lancer1289 23:25, March 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * No doubt, as I had to undo the page deletions made to both User:Lancer1289's and User:JakePT's pages a couple of times by these two users, as well as a third user who went by a similar name, who deleted my own page twice. H-Man Havoc 18:47, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Your user page was only blanked once, not twice. Lancer1289 19:14, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've seen a little bit of H-Man Havoc's comments, and given the nonsense I saw, I really don't want to peruse it any more. The nerve. Putting crap like "which is why Spart and Lancer should've at least taken my ideas into regard", as if I didn't take his ideas into regard. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have responded. I'm almost too furious to express myself right now... using this vandalism spree for self-aggrandizement and to belittle the admins... SpartHawg948 00:47, March 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * OK... a few deep breaths later... let's wade through this morass...
 * Yes, I have seen vandalism like this before. When I see something new, you'll know. This is not really unusual, and is to be expected when there's no one around to impose a ban.
 * Protection of the Illusive Man page has been undone. I've seen much worse happen to individual pages without feeling the need to impose protection.
 * Indefinite IP bans are fine with me. It was DRY who was against them.
 * It's Commdor's user page. If he wants it protected, protect it. In general, user pages should only be protected if the user requests it. I for one know I'd be livid if I found my user page had been protected without my express consent. If someone requests their page be protected, however, do it. It is their user page, after all.
 * One or even two blankings of a user page? Big deal. Mine was blanked five times. And I've seen worse there too. I've had days where the number of times my user page was blanked was in the double digits. SpartHawg948 00:58, March 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll respond in sentence form. 1) Well I figured I'd ask if you had seen something like this before, it was just a little shocking to me to see something like that. 2) Like I said I wasn't sure about it, having little to no experience with something like this. 3) Ok with the bans, again I figured I should ask. I don't know everything. :) 4) Ok I'll ask if Commdor wants it to be extended as it is right now a 24-hour thing. Which will be right after I eat dinner which I'm off to right now. 5) I remember a few of those days. Although I think Jake, Teugene, and myself were on the main receiving end here. Again like I said, this was just a little overwhelming first thing to see this, and I hope you can understand the questions. Lancer1289 01:05, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

Harbinger and Sovereign
I've raised this issue on Sovereign's talk page before, but nothing came of it. I'm not too fond of the infoboxes containing just: Reaper, especially on Sovereign. Concerning Harbinger, at this point simply visiting the article is a spoiler despite the tag; the clear image of a Reaper is a dead give away. I'm not entirely sure how to resolve this, and frankly would like someone of authority to look it over. For harbinger at least, a Collector general infobox with faux info and a real one later down, or just a reaper one that's lower so simply browsing doesn't give it away would be preferable to me. I know that anyone browsing a wiki and looking at the page for the main villain probably doesn't care, but we have those tags for a reason and I'm always looking out for the guy who's never touched ME and found this site off of wikia at random to have the ideal experience. Thanks for taking the time to read this! Arbiter099 05:36, March 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with you about the Sovereign page, but think the Harbinger page is fine as-is. There is literally no way to make any portion of the article spoiler-free, as we do on the Sovereign page, so I really don't see how it can be improved. SpartHawg948 19:22, March 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Apparently this issue has fizzled, the wiki has bigger fish to fry, I know, but this bugs me. This was my go at solving it, but it wasn't up to standards. I've moved it into my sandbox to mull it over. What would you do to fix the formatting issues? Arbiter099 02:28, April 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Cutting in here (Apologies, Spart, if you would have preferred this was posted on the Sovereign talk page) - If we're really going to remove spoilers from the intro that indicate Sovereign is a character and not just a ship, even though this is a character article, there are a couple other changes I think are necessary. The character infobox (by its very nature, a dead giveaway Sovereign is more than a dreadnought) should be moved below the spoiler tag, and the bit in the intro that says Sovereign is also called Nazara (which also raises questions for the unaware) should be removed. There's other stuff in the intro I'd still classify as spoilers, but seeing as that would cut the intro in half, I'm willing to leave them be and support changing the intro as long as my other conditions are met. -- Commdor (Talk) 03:15, April 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * I see no reason for most, if not all, of the changes proposed in the previous message. Let's see: The infobox, I do agree with. That should go. So-called spoilers which seem to indicate Sovereign is not a ship? I see none. After all, the first sentence states that Sovereign is Saren's flagship. And the second calls Sovereign a dreadnought. Seems pretty clear-cut. As for the bit about the mention of Nazara constituting a spoiler, I don't see it. Ships can be known by multiple names simultaneously. Take the famous case of the Confederate warship C.S.S. Virginia. The funny thing is, hardly anyone these days remembers the Virginia, because it is also known as the Merrimack. Additionally, if the name is of such grave concern, it seems to me that several other articles need their intros reworked, or they need their spoiler tags moved. The Tali article springs to mind. However, I don't think it's an issue of any concern. So, to sum up, the infobox should go. The other concerns seem like non-issues to me. SpartHawg948 06:03, April 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * But doesn't a supposed non-sentient ship delivering a quote and having a voice actor seem a bit out of the ordinary?Arbiter099 06:09, April 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Because, as we all know, there is absolutely no precedent for non-sentient ships having voices and saying things. Oh, wait... there is. Nevermind. No, I don't think it's a huge issue, given that it's pretty common in sci-fi. SpartHawg948 06:11, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Site Policy
Regarding this edit. Blindly following policy to the letter without leaving any possible room for exceptions has never been a smart idea at any time in history, but that's not the point. If you insist on having that view, why not change policy? Providing links to articles would be very helpful for navigation. Or is the wiki changing and helping people find out more about a subject not the primary role any more? --86.159.81.139 19:48, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Blindly following a policy to the letter without leaving any possible room for exceptions has proven to be a smart idea throughout history. For example, we blindly adhere to a policy that it's wrong (and illegal) to blow up buildings with children in them. I think that society has benefited from this policy. Ditto to "blind adherence" to policies prohibiting rape, incest, genocide, etc. So please, leave the quasi-dialectical diatribes at home.


 * Now, as to the matter at hand: If you think policy should be changed, than by all means, be proactive! Propose the change you'd like to see in the Policy Forum. That's what it's here for. Don't merely rely on others to do it for you, because if you're expecting me to agitate for a policy change I think is unnecessary, you'll have quite a long wait. And please, leave the condescension at home next time. Of course the wiki is about helping people, and we are not averse to change, when warranted. The snide rhetoric really was not needed. SpartHawg948 19:59, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh... also the blind adherence to the Cold War policy of not launching nukes unless the other guy launched them first. That policy, though questioned a few times, was never overturned, and as such, was always adhered to. And I think we can all agree that this proved to be a pretty smart idea. Certainly those of us not living in radioactive wastelands can. I could go on with more blindly adhered to policies which proved to be smart ideas, but I think you get the picture. SpartHawg948 20:04, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Edits and News
Hey Spart, remember certain edits to the Mass Effect page a few days ago? Well I don't know if you did some checking, but when I was on Wikipedia recently and accidently I hit "Random Article" and it took me to their Mass Effect page. What I noticed as I scrolled down the article, is that the sections were an exact copy of the information in the Wikipedia article. So not only was it not needed, as you said in your edit summary, but also had other issues. I know Wikia sites when pulling information from Wikipedia have to site that they are doing so. I didn't know if you noticed this, but I thought I'd share anyway.

As to the news part, I know in the past Tullis did news blogs for the wiki, and I was thinking that we should do that again. Who writes it, you or me, I really don't care, but I was wondering what you thought of the idea first before I continue working on something. Lancer1289 20:37, April 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * I could honestly care less about the news blogs. They weren't news blogs for the wiki, after all. They were her own personal blogs. I found them somewhat interesting but mostly superfluous. I mainly read them because Tullis is a really good writer, and I like reading her writing. She even makes news blogs readable. That's my thought on the matter. SpartHawg948 06:13, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well I just thoughts I'd get your thoughts on the matter. Maybe if I can think of something better, I'll run it by you at a later date but it was just something I was thinking about as I was looking around at other wikis. Lancer1289 06:20, April 2, 2011 (UTC)

I've been cloned...well not really
Even more chaos this morning and frankly this time it is beyond personal. This time a vandal, who I firmly believe is the same person from the last two instances, impersonated my user name using Cyrillic characters that the Wikia markup mistakes for standard lettering. Teugene explained this more on my talk page. This caused some initial confusing among users that were here, but they quickly caught on to what was happening and the vandal was eventually caught. While nothing on the internet should surprise me anymore, I feel that I can say with some certainty that you haven't seen this before. I'll be making a few inquiries about this elsewhere, but I feel that this is just beyond personal and needs to go to higher authorities. Oh and then the vandal tries to impersonate me again on my talk page no less. Needless to say that I've banned them all indefinitely for a clear cut case of sock puppetry, unless you have an objection. Again while nothing should surprise me, this was certainly very surprising, annoying, frustrating, and among other things that I'd like to say. Lancer1289 18:43, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Oh and in case you are interested here are the vandals: Note the different URLs compared to mine. Again I feel that I can say with some certainty that you haven't seen something like this before. Sorry about the joke, but I needed it right now. Lancer1289 18:47, April 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) First One
 * 2) Second One
 * 3) Third One
 * 4) Fourth One
 * 5) Fifth One


 * I can't see how it goes beyond personal. To me, this seems eminently personal. This person doesn't like this wiki, and doesn't like you in particular, based on the nature of the vandalism I'm seeing. I have no objections to the bans you've implemented. SpartHawg948 18:54, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Wiki Powers Guideline
Hi Spart. Is there a general guideline that has to be followed when it comes to granting administrative powers onto a user, or further on, Admin status, based on the number of edits a user performs over a certain period of time? If I had to guess, I'd say that Rollback powers are bestowed once a user reaches at least 2,500 edits, and an Admin status is awarded once a user exceeds 6,000 edits (I say this because Lancer1289 must've gotten his Admin status anywhere between 8,000-12,000 edits; not sure really). I'd assume since you're a bureaucrat you might have some insight into these supposed rankings. H-Man Havoc 01:44, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually it was somewhere between 7,000 and 8,000. However you do have an incorrect view point of this. Getting additional abilites is not entirely based on solely the number of edits a user has, but a number of other factors. Including but not limited to a user who has a long history of productive edits, a user who has a good track record, and a user has a good attitude. This is unless I'm misunderstanding something. I know some wikis do have a policy that you must have a certain number of edits, and for some, that is the only qualification. For admin powers, all the current admins must agree on the promotion. If there is one no, then the user is not given admin powers.
 * Also for reference rollback powers is currenlty at the descression of Spart. For reference, Commdor didn't have 1,000 edits before getting rollback powers, JakePT was between 1,500 and 2,000, and Dammej was between 2,000 and 2,500. There's at lest one other user I'd like to see that gets rollback as well.
 * I'm sure if I missed something, or got something incorrect, Spart will correct me. Also Spart, check your email. Lancer1289 03:20, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess then I accidentally left it out... though one could be the most honourable, most productive, and have a great personality while having more than enough edits and still not get the position of Admin. Ironically the caveat of promotions; just because you follow the rules and make ethical and moral decisions on how to perform your job effectively doesn't mean you'll be given more important roles, it just means you'll be looked at for possible upgrades to your job. H-Man Havoc 03:33, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * That is how the world works doesn't it. It may seem unfair, but there have to be some standards for getting additional rights and not just based on edit numbers or something else. There needs to be a lot of other things that need to be considered as well. Lancer1289 03:47, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately this applies to me, as I've yet to be promoted at my real job despite working for more than two years, being at least 19 years old, and having a good reputation in the workplace, as well as being the most experienced person working at the position. Here, I need many more edits, though my rep is solid and nearly a third of my edits are for combatting widespread vandalism the past two weeks. H-Man Havoc 03:53, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * The general guideline is that there is no general guideline. Any additional powers are granted on a strictly case-by-case basis. No numbers games or anything. Basically, a user has to have the full faith and confidence of the current admins, and there also needs to be a need for the promotion. And, as Lancer stated, all admins must agree before someone is promoted to admin. For rollback powers, basically I dole them out as needed, and in the event that a new Bureaucrat is needed (and I'm sure one will be eventually), we'd likely follow the same general process used for admins. I probably shouldn't say anything, but two editors are currently being considered for promotion to admin, and I'm also considering giving a few more users rollback powers, especially in light of the recent vandalism. I haven't notified any of them yet, but there are four I'm considering for that (and I really shouldn't say this, but one of the four has posted in this very thread. Now who could that be?). SpartHawg948 06:02, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I should also mention, no user is promoted to admin or given rollback rights unless that user agrees to it. No one has said no yet, but should that happen, we'd respect it. I'm not gonna shanghai anyone or anything. No "Haha! Now you're an admin whether you like it or not!" :P SpartHawg948 06:05, April 5, 2011 (UTC)

Email
Hey Spart check your email ASAP as you will find something there that might interest you. Let's just say it is a three letter word for now... Lancer1289 14:13, April 6, 2011 (UTC) Dang it lancer, now im going to have to sit at my laptop for 3 hours geussing what it is.--Legionwrex 14:21, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Orc? Cuz I hates me them orcs! Lousy good for nothing... :P SpartHawg948 14:22, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't sure you'd be on this early, but I see that you have already taken measures we talked about. I also would like to direct your attention to Shadowhawk27's talk page as he did leave a response, and one that I'm sure you won't be too happy with. I also just nipped another clone in the bud before he could begin. Lancer1289 14:29, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Could you maybe send the emails to the other three individuals I'd mentioned? I still need to, but am already running late due to all this madness! :) SpartHawg948 14:31, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming those other three would be the ones that weren't just promoted as I'm just a bit confused? Lancer1289 14:35, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I kinda forgot to ask them if they were even willing... silly me! SpartHawg948 14:35, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure I can do that. You also sent Commdor and JakePT basically the same email that you sent me when I was promoted already right? If not I can take care of that as well. Lancer1289 14:37, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey Spart I sent the emails but you might want to check for another one. Also I'm unsure what you want to do about the comment below. Lancer1289 21:31, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, if you want to send emails to JakePT and Commdor with the scoop on being admins, go right ahead. I've only got 10 minutes, then I need to run again, to class this time. Though from what I see, Commdor already has some of the fundamentals down pat! SpartHawg948 23:21, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I already did that earlier as you left quite abruptly, and I figured you didn't have time so I sent them. I was planning on sending an email anyway so they would have my email address. In addition, when I was promoted, both you and Tullis sent me a message about what and what not to do. If you want to send another later, then feel free, but I did one earlier. Lancer1289 23:41, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

New Admin
Who decided that JakePT gets to be an admin now, isnt the community suposed to vote.--Legionwrex 14:40, April 6, 2011 (UTC) And now Commdors an admin to???--Legionwrex 14:42, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Promotions and giving users extra rights (Sysop/rollback), is at the discretion of the admin team. Previoulsy, this consisted of Spart and myself, and now has been expanded. Lancer1289 15:08, April 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Largely based on two current issues. Namely, Tullis and DRY have been inactive for months, as well as being based on the instances of vandalism from the same extremist vandal (can't say anything stronger due to the Language policy) that has impersonated Lancer and other major instances of vandalism over the past two weeks. Despite my words having absolutely no weight on the decision, I concur with Commdor and JakePT being upgraded to admins for the above two reasons. All that's left is for Spart to assign rollback capabilities to a few other users (possibly) to fill in the void, last I heard he was reviewing four candidates to be endowed with this wiki power. H-Man Havoc 16:11, April 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Unlike you Legionwrex and especially Shadowhawk27, I've no qualms with waiting a little longer before I get reviewed to become a possible admin or a user with upgraded abilities, rather not until I garner more edits, say another thousand to be on the safe side. As good as I am, I don't feel ready to shoulder the load of responsibility past being an acting-caretaker for the wiki when the admins are inactive. H-Man Havoc 16:23, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) That isn't the only reason there are a lot of other reasons as well, and neither put together were the largest part of it. H-Man, please don't say things about an issue when you don't have all the information about what happened. Lancer1289 16:28, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

Dont be rude havoc, I wasnt saying I wanted to be an admin I was asking a question, so dont get snippy with me I am in no mood.--Legionwrex 16:35, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) And there is no need to get snippy back and I suggest you both drop this issue before things get worse. Lancer1289 16:45, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Contrary to what you insinuate, my statement does not commit the fallacy of hasty generalization, as I did say "largely" rather than "the only reasons why". Need I remind you that had I not been proactive on the wiki during the times where it was massively vandalized and you were inactive, it would've taken significantly longer to restore the wiki articles to their previous status. H-Man Havoc 16:37, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) However you did comment about an issue that you had very little information about. I generally don't comment about issues like that unless I need to, and I really don't like it when others do. It's just a pet peeve. And no you didn't need to remind me of that. Lancer1289 16:45, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

As for your query Legionwrex, your tone states otherwise. By that logic, I can interpret that as being a little hostile. H-Man Havoc 16:38, April 6, 2011 (UTC) May I remind you that I live in the west so I was asleep like Lancer and that stoping a vandal is not going to make you an admin.--Legionwrex 16:40, April 6, 2011 (UTC) And I only started being hostile when you started being rube, ask aaround, I one of the most passive poeple on this wiki.--Legionwrex 16:42, April 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I again suggest you both drop this before it get's out of hand. Oh and Legionwrex, some of your actions are contrary to that statment, or need I point to more than a few blogs and blog posts. Lancer1289 16:45, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

Then I simply misinterpreted your assumption, Legionwrex. My bad. As for admin, it doesn't take an Einstein to know that fixing vandalizing instances doesn't garner me position to become admin. My point was that I happened to be up at the time that the vandalism took place, and there are a good few users who live beyond my time zone. I stated before that I have no intention of campaigning to be one at this time.H-Man Havoc 16:47, April 6, 2011 (UTC) I also apologize for getting out of hand H-Man Havoc and lancer.--207.200.116.10 16:50, April 6, 2011 (UTC) That was me.--Legionwrex 16:52, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

"I am Lancer" week is over
Hey, losers! The "I am Lancer" week is now officially over :(  It was fun, wasn't it? Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to make contributions as often in the near future, because I'm moving on to advertising this fine Wiki at other sites. I'd really like to attract more editors here. If you have any last minute suggestions for the campaign, you can share them with me via this mailbox: shadowlancer1289@hotmail.com . After all, I'm going to make you famous! Ĺancer1289 16:48, April 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Whatever you gotta tell yourself to sleep at night. After all, it's not me giving up, it's you. But if you're cool with that, then more power to you. As for advertising elsewhere, thanks! After all, like they say, any publicity is good publicity. Even if it's got ill intent, it'll still bring people here who are interested and mean well. And as you well know, we'll be here waiting in case any of them do have ill intent. I'm still kinda chuckling about having banned you twice last night before you could do anything. :D SpartHawg948 19:24, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Help with a project.
Hey Spart. I've tooled around here for a while as an IP but I recently decided to get an account. Anyway, I made a short post here about a project I'm starting, to document the entire Mass Effect (and maybe the ME2) script. I was wondering if you were interested in either helping out or spreading the word. I'm not really sure how one goes about recruiting help for this sort of thing, and I figured you were a good person to ask advice from. Geronimous 05:07, April 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ooohhh... I'm not really in a great position to help atm, as I'm working full-time and going to school full time. If I had the free time, I'd love to, but I just don't. As for spreading the word, the best way would just be to contact people asking if they'd be interested, or to start a blog about it, which you can do by clicking the 'blog' tab on your user page. Forums are all well and good, and are actually ideal for the project itself, but for attracting attention, blogs work better. SpartHawg948 05:15, April 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand about time commitments. I've made my first blog post (!) but for some reason it's not showing up on the "recent blog posts." Am I doing something wrong? Thanks for the pointers, I appreciate it. <3 Geronimous 17:58, April 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * The cache probably needs to update, and please see your talk page. Lancer1289 18:23, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

News blog
Hi! Would you mind me setting up a news blog on the Mass Effect Wiki's main page, similar to the ones at e.g. The Vault or Dragon Age Wiki instead of the current, static news section? I set up a News page already as an example. It allows anyone to post up-to-date news and makes the news sections a lot more interactive thanks to user comments. Please let me know if you have any questions. Ausir(talk) 19:04, April 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm a little curious as to why I'm being asked this after it's already been done. That's generally not a good way to earn my support.
 * Regardless, it's not up to me. Something of this nature should be proposed in the Projects forum, which was created explicitly for things such as the blog you mention. There, the merits and faults can be hashed out, any issues resolved, and the community can have a say. SpartHawg948 19:08, April 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * I set up the page merely as an example, in order to demonstrate it. I was not trying to impose the feature - sorry if it looks like that. I've moved it to a subpage of my user page. Ausir(talk) 19:13, April 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the page really should have been created as a subpage then, not created as an article and then moved. And the creation of the accompanying category is still no bueno. Again, that's why we have the forum for discussing proposed changes. The forum where, as it so happens, this very system was discussed last year and voted down. SpartHawg948 19:17, April 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to throw my two cents here as well, this proposal had a lot of issues and not all of them, especially big ones, were worked out so the project was abandoned. As to the proposal itself, that would be something that would have to be set up in the Projects forum to, maybe this time, get it properly hashed out before implementation. I was for the proposal last time, but I had to vote against it because of the enormous amount of unresolved issues that were present. I think I actually still have something in my sandboxes related to it. Lancer1289 19:22, April 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, sorry for not setting it up by the book. Won't happen again. I'll read the previous discussion, look into any concerns you had about the system, and try to address them. Thanks for the link! Ausir(talk) 19:26, April 14, 2011 (UTC)

Re: Language
Sorry, I have a limited vocab, and I just came up with that. I meant no harm, and I'm fully aware of the policy. Very sorry.--BriNg iN DeR FLAmeS?! 06:53, April 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Limited vocabulary is not a legitimate excuse. "Messed up" would have been sufficient, for example. SpartHawg948 07:11, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

I like you, :3
See unlike Lancer you actually give reasons for you're undo and show a bit of personality. :3 --N7 09:18, April 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hold your judgement until you get to know me a bit better. Some say I have a bit too much personality! :P


 * But yeah, I do always try and give reasons for undos, though I'm not always able. The problem with leaving long and detailed edit summaries explaining why you are undoing something is that you are frequently beaten to the undo by another editor who doesn't leave such a detailed explanation. But that doesn't stop me from trying! And yes, I agree. Ashley is all kinds of smokin' in that picture. I thought she was hot in ME and ME2, but with that long hair... man oh man! I CANNOT WAIT for ME3! :D SpartHawg948 09:28, April 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, I kinda see what you mean. Its just annoying when you make an edit only to find Lancer undoing it with "Unnecessary" and yeah I'm currently doing another ME1 run through just to save her. Hoes before bros my friend. Hoes before bros... --N7 09:34, April 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Indeed! My OG first-playthrough Shepard will have quite the dilemma though... Ashley or Miranda? Decisions, decisions. SpartHawg948 09:38, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

Ashley is my canon love interest for male Shepard. Do I win? :P -- Fiery Phoenix 10:02, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Sources
Hey Spart,

I know we have recently made an amendment in regards to the rules concerning valid sourcing, by adding Facebook and Twitter pages to the valid sources list. However, I'd like to know if this is 100% accurate, since I keep seeing Twitter and Facebook used as sources more often. I assume they are considered valid only if we KNOW they belong to the person in question (e.g. a BW developer, voice actor, etc), right? Or is there more to it? Because quite honestly, you really can't trust these sites sometimes, but I'm also sure we're right on the money concerning the pages that belong to the Mass Effect people (in that they indeed belong to them). -- Fiery Phoenix 10:00, April 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's pretty much it. Twitter and Facebook are acceptable sources if, and only if, we can confirm that the page/tweet/whatever comes from someone actually in the know. For example, we have confirmed Christina Norman's Twitter account, so tweets from her account are a legitimate source. Ditto for Facebook pages for (to use an example) voice actors. It should be pointed out that, though these are acceptable sources, that doesn't necessarily mean they're always correct, particularly when the individual in question is someone like a VA. We've gotten bad info from a VA on at least one occasion in the past, though in all fairness, she's also the one who told us it was bad info when she realized she'd misremembered. SpartHawg948 10:28, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for the confirmation. Will keep this in mind :) -- Fiery Phoenix

Missing Edits
Hi Spart. I checked my user profile today and saw that around 30 of my previously accounted edits mysteriously vanished. Granted the contributions themselves are there, but the number's been reduced somehow. My amount reads 666 edits (this will apparently be # 667) but I was already at this point four days ago and I'm 100% certain I made at least 25 more edits after the fact, since my edit count was at around 690-694 before this occurred. Normally losing 30 edits isn't something to worry about, but something strange happened here. Is it a glitch on behalf of the wiki, or is something else going on? Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 11:12, April 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * It is more than likely Wikia here as I've lost over 200 edits once, and they returned. As for the reason it is happening, I'm not entirely sure, but I'm assuming it has something to do with Wikia's cache an d it failing to update properly. Lancer1289 17:45, April 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it's me. I steal edits when no one is looking. I stash them away for later use in one of my many nefarious schemes. SpartHawg948 18:10, April 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * "The obvious insider". That makes my day today, funny. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 18:22, April 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just don't ask what that scheme is, as we probably don't want to know. Lancer1289 18:25, April 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hopefully the count gets restored soon.Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 18:35, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

Blocking My IP Address
Sparthawg948,

This is Throwback. I have recently replaced my router. I have a new IP Address - 76.21.53.118, and I am requesting that you block this address like you have blocked the other two addresses. Thank you. 76.21.53.118 02:17, April 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Taken care of Spart. Lancer1289 02:31, April 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sigh... you're killing me, Throwback! If you keep up this sort of behavior, you may crack my hard exterior, exposing the soft candy innards and causing me to rethink the perma-ban. I must say, despite our past differences, you've impressed me with your actions since (for the most part... we'll say a ratio of two impressive actions for every one disappointing one), unlike certain other perma-banned users who have yet to even attempt apologies, or even acknowledge their own behavior. Obviously, no one is a "role model" for being perma-banned, but you're far and away the closest. SpartHawg948 06:01, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Xbox Live
I saw your response to my message to Lancer last night and it made me smile; I always assumed you were on PC. My gamertag is Evolved Force. Add away! :D -- Fiery Phoenix 12:57, April 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah, I'm not smart enough to be a PC gamer. All those keys... (Seriously though, I do a little MMO-ing now and then, and some strategy games like HOI II, but other than that, I'm strictly an XBox gamer). SpartHawg948 19:11, April 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, my gamertag is pretty obvious. It's not my wiki username, but it's similar enough that it should be obvious it's me. :) SpartHawg948 09:03, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Hey spart, you got an xbox live account, send a friend request to seddjrqpi and we can play some halo or gears of war.--Legionwrex 17:34, April 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * If you want, you can also send one to my account, Ironstone1991. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 17:41, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Roger copy. Got to Lancer and Fiery Phoenix, and I'll get legionwrex and H-Man Havoc tonight. :) SpartHawg948 18:54, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * I just did both as well. Lancer1289 19:07, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * I confirmed a request just now... I think it's yours Lancer. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 19:22, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

I also got the request lancer, but I must say I didnt expect you to be underground.--Legionwrex 20:19, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

I also sent friend requests to you, Spart, as well as Legionwrex and Fiery Phoenix Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 00:45, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see how it is... you clever little clever McCleversons went and found me out first! Well done! :) SpartHawg948 05:30, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

Something You Might Want to Keep Your Eyes On
Tali'Zorah nar Rayya. The article has had some abuse today over a "rumor", unsourced at that, that says she will not be a squadmate, but rather indoctrinated early in the game. I highly doubt that BioWare would do this as they would more than likely never hear the end of it. People say that it is sourced in the magazine article, but it makes no such mention of it. I've already had to ban one person over it, and I'm questioning two others. So just something that you need to keep an eye on since I need to leave soon.

What's curious though is there is already a fourm post about it. Lancer1289 21:56, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

User Page Semi-protection
I wasn't sure where to take this query, so I brought it here. Hope thats O.K. Would you set my User page to be semi-protected please? :] Thank you. --Humans Vanish 04:23, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. Lancer1289 04:41, April 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * My own page as well, please? I don't want to keep having to undo vandalism on my user page, rather just seal it and put it to rest (semi-protected obviously. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 04:54, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also done. Lancer1289 05:20, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, broham. --Humans Vanish 05:31, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Same here. Thanks. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 05:34, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

He did go elsewhere
Apparently the vandal went elsewhere, in addition to us being his test bed earlier this morning. He went to the Dragon Age wiki, and currently that is the only one I've found, but apparently he did go elsewhere. Why can't people be mature, grown up, and just act like mature adults? Lancer1289 14:51, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Because people like him have anger problems, you probably banned a profile he had a long time ago and he got so hooked on revenge he couldnt let it go.--Legionwrex 17:38, April 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think he's trying to push Lancer to the limit, and won't stop until he does. You must not give him that satisfaction, though it will be tough to resist. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 17:42, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * I honestly wish he'd just find a new hobby, but honestly that's about it. Lancer1289 18:12, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Hey, don't worry about these guys who keep breaking the wiki, they'll ultimately just give up. It may feel like you're banging your head against a nail every so often, but you guys are keeping this place what it's supposed to be: A databank of knowledge. If I'm honest, you guys do a better job than I could ever do. Keep up the good work. 86.163.176.131 19:42, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed it does seem like that sometime however I do most sincerely thank you for your kind comments. Lancer1289 19:44, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah well. At least it gives us something to do whilst eagerly awaiting ME3. Never a dull moment around the wiki. :) SpartHawg948 05:32, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

Archiving issues
Hey man, I accidentally made a new page and I don't know how to delete it. My bad I was trying to figure out how to archive my talk page. Any tips will help. --Humans Vanish 06:33, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Your best bet (aka what I myself do) is to just go to your user talk page (assuming that's what you intend to archive) and putting a /Archive1 (or just /Archive or whatever you want) onto the end of the URL. Then you can create a link to it on your talk page. You can use mine (or Lancer1289's or Commdor's or JakePT's) as examples/templates if you so choose. SpartHawg948 06:44, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, also, the page you created on accident has been deleted. No worries about it either or anything. I think I actually did the same thing way back when I was first experimenting with archiving. So you're in distinguished company as far as that goes. Or not so distinguished, depending on who you believe. :P SpartHawg948 06:47, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

Haha, well thanks for the info buddy, this is all new ground for me. Luckily I am quick to learn. I do, however, have another question. I have made my archive page, now how do I create a link on my talk page? I like how Lancers just says Archive in blue. --Humans Vanish 07:00, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * For that (if we're talking about the same thing), you'll just want to use an alias. To do that, make the link, then put one of these vertical lines | behind it but before the close brackets, and put the text you want to appear. If you want an example, click edit and check this out! Hope this helps. SpartHawg948 07:06, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, what an ijut I'm being. I could just do this: Archive. Is that what you're looking for? If so, feel free to click edit, then copy and paste straight from my talk page to yours! SpartHawg948 07:08, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

Huzzah! I got it to work. Thanks man. --Humans Vanish 07:18, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * You bet! I like archiving. For some reason, I find it relaxing. Which is funny, because I'm generally pretty darn disorganized. Also, I weighed in with my "Old School B-Crat" opinion on the language brouhaha going on over at a certain blog of yours... hope it helps. SpartHawg948 07:24, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think I'll leave it where you have it. Your points are sound and any further incursion into the matter would most likely rekindle the flame. Thanks again. --Humans Vanish 07:28, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's what I do! Every now and then, I do like to take a break from being a participant in the big arguments and try to act as a mediator. Every now and then even I can stop yelling and start being the voice of common sense! :P SpartHawg948 07:31, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

We all have a little mediator in us! --Humans Vanish 07:35, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Arbington more than most. Seriously, that guy never ceases to amaze me, which is probably why I drop his name so often. SpartHawg948 07:37, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

Article/User Page deletion
Combating a vandal who is deleting whole articles as well as Lancer's Talk Page. Further action is definitely required. Also, This guy is undoing the WoW wiki too and adding the infamous picture. I'll keep an eye out. --Humans Vanish 12:47, April 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * He's already been banned by Lancer, however only for two weeks. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 12:55, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * That's the standard time for a first time ban. Lancer1289 12:56, April 26, 2011 (UTC)

Glad it's dealt with. He was undoing massive amounts of information at the WoW wiki from what I can tell. It would have been annoying to fix all that. --Humans Vanish 12:59, April 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * It still is being undone. Lancer1289 13:03, April 26, 2011 (UTC)

Opinion Needed
Hey Spart, I was hoping to get a comment about something new that Commdor added to the Forum:Recent Changes Alterations about changing so that b'crats/admins/rollback users have their names show up differently on the Recent Changes page. You can read more about it there. Also could you take a look at the rest of the page as well. Lancer1289 00:58, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

Going along with the color's discussion, something I was thinking about and I can see two options here, both of which involve creating a new forum. I'm open to more suggestions, but these are the two I've been tossing around for a while. I'm really partial to the first one as it will affect just those users directly and we can inform the community about the results. I'm really hesitant about the second one for a number of reasons. One thing I think we should do in either case is that we allow the colors to change if a new vote is called for. I'm just looking for your opinion about where this should go as I've already given mine and just to repeat, I'm really partial to the first one. Lancer1289 23:17, April 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) We just let b'crats (just you), admins (me, Commdor, and Jake), and rollback users (Dammej, Teugene, Bronzey, and Arbington), propose colors for their respective groups and vote on them separately as this is how the colors will be based.
 * 2) We allow the community to vote on the colors.
 * Me too. The colors pertain to us and identifying us, so I see no reason we shouldn't be the ones to sort it out. SpartHawg948 23:25, April 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Very Well. I'll get a new forum up, set up the rules, break it into sections, and let the respective users for their section go at it. I'm going to have a lot of messages to drop about this. Lancer1289 00:05, April 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * As I am working on it, I was wondering if you'd be cool with this idea, since you are the b'crat. I was thinking of putting something that says you need to be a member of those groups to comment on the forum page as otherwise it could get crowded with people voicing their opinions about what they should be and it could influence the vote. Even general comments could damage it, hence why I wanted to add that to the page. I know that should be implied, but sometimes it just needs to be stated. Also if any comments by someone who is not a member of that group, I'm debating whether or not to say their comments will be removed, but I'm not sure about that one. Lancer1289 03:10, April 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * It should definitely only be admins voting (I don't need to vote unless I develop split personalities), but we may want to leave it open to commenting. A little bit of editor input could be helpful, even if ultimately it doesn't factor in to the actual voting. Honestly, I'm still undecided about what color I want. Decisions, decisions... :P SpartHawg948 04:04, April 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's what I was thinking. I've divieded the page into respective sections, and I have a commenting section in them for just them. I can have a general commenting section at the end for everyone else and label it that way. How does that sound? Lancer1289 04:58, April 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. SpartHawg948 05:00, April 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * And just one more thing. I was thinking that if any comments that are left by other users outside the general comments section, they will be moved there. Lancer1289 05:15, April 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure. SpartHawg948 05:22, April 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Forum created: Forum:User Colors on Recent Changes. Lancer1289 05:32, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

You have your share of impersonation
Well, what can I say. Either the vandal has ran out of names he can think off, or probably you're next on this list. Check out this user Spithog98 (Cyrillic p) who has been vandalising the Dragonball wiki, though I think you might already be aware of it since his other account was banned previously. — Teugene (Talk) 16:29, April 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Lancer1289 16:36, April 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yup. The way I see it, this just proves the old saying that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. :) SpartHawg948 18:47, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

It also proves the this guy will have unlimited ways to keep harassing people. So we WILL just have to ride it out until he gets bored with it. Oh well, I'm ready for war. -- Humans Vanish 18:51, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Query
Do you have an instant messenger Spart? If so, is there a way you can send me your info privately? I want to talk to you about something.-- Humans Vanish 21:09, April 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really. Is it something that needs to be done via instant whatever? If it is, we can figure something out probably. If not, feel free to email me about it. I can't promise I'll respond right away, but I will respond. SpartHawg948 05:55, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Just woke up, to find out it's irrelevant. I was going to converse with you about the vandal hitting here and preparing for that. It appears it happened while I was asleep. :( -- Humans Vanish 12:21, April 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * Myself and Occam were battling his edits, and he was attempting to intimidate us, to not much success. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 12:24, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I found it odd he was nicer to me then anyone else. All he said to me was that this was none of concern. No swears or anything. --<font color="00FF00">Oc <font color="00CC00">ca m's Ra  zor  12:35, April 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * Because although you had some experience undoing his edits from before, today was the first day you really got his attention, and as for me, now as you've seen he uses futile attempts to goad me. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 12:37, April 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually I was one the main forces stopping him when he initially attack the Dragon Age wiki but I guess he forgot how I kicked his a** so hard that day. --<font color="00FF00">Oc <font color="00CC00">ca m's Ra  zor  12:41, April 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just like how I kicked his rear-end on here numerous times in the past month. I indeed was often the sole user combating and undoing his edits for long periods of time. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 12:42, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Alright here's a question. Is there a way to look at the edits a user made on all the wikis in one place? So next time the guy comes back we know which wiki he is attacking instead of waiting for someone to tell us.--<font color="00FF00">Oc <font color="00CC00">ca m's Ra  zor  12:49, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, you can see the edit count for other wikis, but not the actual edits they make at other wikis. I'm just waiting for Wikia to get involved though. They have to, at some point, with this thing getting as big and sweeping as it is. SpartHawg948 18:54, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep that exactly the point. You can see various sections like "User Blog Comments", "User talk", "Main" (mainspace), and those types of categories, but you can't specific edits. However I do have to agree, Wikia is going to have to get involved with this at some point. Lancer1289 18:58, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Conclusion to the taken down "Jack Harper" section on Lancer1289's talk page.
Can't say I am particurarly bemused on this one... Probably didn't fit there anyway, with that talk page becoming basically a record of your vandal's activities. But I'm going to post this one final piece of rant anyway. "Final", because I haven't received a word from the older admins, and don't think I ever will. And taking the matter to the Wikia staff is probably ever more pointless now, as they, of course, aren't going to "side with the vandal". But if it wasn't for that stupid kid, I'd probably tried that out. So here, just for the record.

I feel a bit irked, when instead of the information I look for I get a picture of two guys kissing. But I blame that on you and the vandal equally. He did it, but you caused it. You, SpartHawg948, are personally responsbile for letting this situation spin out of control. You and your selected "senior editors" arbitraly decide which spoilers and speculations are exempt from the "site policy" and which are grounds for account termination. And the deliberation of which is which (if any) bears the same quality as the deliberation in Shadowhawk27's case. That quality is called "bias". But, just like you have unequivocally hinted, it is never going to change, because you are not accountable to anyone, which effectively makes this wiki your personal little electronic kingdom... Well, at least the two of you definitely enjoy it. Your "court" enjoys it. And the vandal - he enjoys it too. You've found each other.Bemused One 16:15, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Oh, I see it has been restored already. And in your last response you're basically telling me that you would rather prefer a crafty guy deceiving you, than a desperate guy, who had no choice but to belittle himself to earn your favor or get the hell out, admitting of a petty offence? Or does it mean that you would have liked Shadowhawk27 to lie to you simply to have more substance for your accusations, and the possibility to gloriously uncover the scheme? He didn't do it... but oh well, he is banned for life regardless.Bemused One 16:15, April 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yup. You're right. It's my fault that there's a homophobic jerk going around vandalizing wikis. Good call.


 * Seriously, if you have such a problem with the way things are done here, why don't you do something, instead of just grousing about it? Near as I can tell, the only thing you've done at this wiki is leave whiny messages in which you criticize others and defend the unconscionable acts of vandals, and which serve only to distract editors with a legitimate desire to improve the wiki from their work. If you want nothing more than to be a spokesman/apologist for a gay-bashing vandal, there are plenty of other wikis you can do it at. If you actually want to try and help, then feel free to start making productive edits instead of just harassing others. SpartHawg948 19:17, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ownership of images
I'm not sure if it's an actual rule, but I know it's implicit that images used in the main article space do not belong to any individual and can be edited or uploaded to a different version by anyone. What about images that are uploaded by users and intended for use only in their personal user pages? Specifically, is it within reason to say that the image I have on my user page belongs to me and I can do with it whatever I wish without prior discussion, or is it still technically in the public space? I need to know to see if I'm allowed to unilaterally protect that image; I plan on protecting my user page proper, but the image would still be vulnerable and a vandal could exploit that. -- Commdor (Talk) 23:30, May 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I know that copyright laws for photos exist when the image(s) in question were created by the said user. Additionally, depending on the home country's statute laws, images can be protected anywhere from 30-100 years before they fall in the public domain. But, using your possible scenario it is quite possible that images are automatically considered in the public domain if you simply uploaded a new picture for your own use, since you didn't have a hand in creating that specific picture. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 23:35, May 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's right, I forgot about the copyright issues. The image would still be in the public domain then. Never mind, Spart. -- Commdor (Talk) 23:51, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about that
I wanted to do a test to see if those edits could be undone faster than he has been adding them, and the answer is yes. I saw you had done some of them, but I didn't look very close at the timestamp so I didn't realize you were working on them right then. -RRabbit42 ( leave a message ) 08:11, May 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * No worries. I was just trying to help out. :) SpartHawg948 08:13, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

Parts of the Wiki broken?
Ah-ha, bugger it was temporary. XD Sorry to bother. --Aryn2382 11:32, May 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * No need to apologize. I went back and looked at your original message, and the same thing has happened to me before too. It was a valid concern, and I've always got time for users with concerns. SpartHawg948 18:43, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

Email
Please disregard my email to you as the issue has been resolved. However I will have another for you at some point later, but I'm running late for class. Lancer1289 14:27, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

Minor Note
I wish we were able to comment on your 'tidbits you wont update' thing.It is one of the more lighthearted things that I see on here and I think it would help us all chill out! It is good stuff in my opinion, would you consider converting it to an updateable blog? Just a thought.-- Humans Vanish 14:50, May 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Not a bad idea. It's somewhat amusing to read. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 15:06, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * The "Tongue in cheek thoughts of..." section? I can probably work something out. Gimme a bit... I actually have some news stories I want to add, sort of a "lighter side" thing. SpartHawg948 19:06, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * So check this out! Post to your heart's content. SpartHawg948 19:22, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

Changing the Spoiler Tag
Hey, I was just observing, and I don't know if it's possible if you were able to do this but I was wondering if you would consider changing the spoiler tag so that it's not a label but more a sort of link (not explaining that very well, go to the | Dragon Age Wiki to see what I mean). It's just that, in my opinion if someone wasn't really concentrating that it's easy for them to miss the spoiler tag and read massive spoilers. It might be 'safer' for them if the spoiler tag was they only thing there until is was clicked. Just my opinion, thanks. ValerianCousland 23:07, May 6, 2011 (UTC) P.S. Sorry about the bad link, external links are still a bit new to me ValerianCousland 23:09, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * This type of thing is more appropriate in the Projects Forum. That said, I would be so against this. I hate how that is done at the DA wiki and honestly just makes articles harder to read if they are long. Lancer1289 23:12, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

I've never found that. What do you mean?ValerianCousland 23:15, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd also be against that kind of change to the spoiler templates. If the system works well for the Dragon Age Wiki, more to power to 'em, but I don't think I've seen any complaints at this wiki from users who inadvertently discovered spoilers and weren't happy about it. A large-scale change to the spoiler template system now would be a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Furthermore, I'd take issue with hiding large portions of article content under those tags, it's very obstructive (to me, at least) and would require a considerable restructuring of many articles here. -- Commdor (Talk) 01:15, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm actually not quite sure how I feel about that idea, but Lancer is correct. The Projects Forum is the appropriate venue for it. I'd like to see the discussion and vote for that proposal. I bet it'd be interesting. SpartHawg948 07:09, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

AJAX Feature
I figured I should just inform you that the two proposals on the Forum:Recent Changes Alterations did pass and were implemented. I know you have/had, unsure which is appropriate at this point, your reservations about the AJAX feature, but as I stated it can be turned on and if you don't want to use it, then you don't have to. I left a few notes about both proposals on the Forum page at the bottom and I would just suggest that you try the AJAX feature and who knows, you may end up liking it. If you have any questions, I'll answer to the best of my ability and if I don't have the answer, I'll go and find someone who does. Lancer1289 18:15, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Addendum: I just remembered this, I know how much you just love the "You have a new message" feature, and I should mention that with AJAX enabled, you won't get that lovely pop-up. :P Ok that was mostly a joke, but you seriously won't get the "You have a new message" pop-up. Lancer1289 18:20, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

no free will
no one ever lets me do or write anything thay just delate for there own purose than mockme wih lies.
 * There is free will, and you saying that "no one ever lets me do or write anything thay just delate for there own purose than mockme wih lies." is itself a lie. Let me ask you this: Who has deleted what you wrote on your userpage? Who? I didn't. Lancer didn't. Nobody did. So your comment above is flat-out wrong.


 * Now, let me ask you this, in all seriousness: Who has mocked you with lies? Who was it, and what did they say? If someone did anything of the sort, I'll talk to them myself. SpartHawg948 19:47, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

Apparently one isn't enough
So remember a certain user who you fought with about certain polices then proceeded to blast us on a forum at BioWare? Well apparently he thinks he can do a better job than us. Zulu DFA has apparently started his own Mass Effect Wiki, the "Comprehensive Edition", whatever that means, and is basically stealing everything that we've worked on. He is just importing everything from our wiki to his wiki, rather than taking the time to write it himself. I'm not sure if that's sad, pathetic, or what. Just figured I should let you know what I've found. Also apparently we've edited there without us knowing. Lancer1289 00:14, May 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps contact Wikia staff and ask them to shut it down? If he's just stealing the pages here, I think the staff will side with you guys. BlackSoulBlade 00:39, May 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * On the one hand, it's flattering for someone who dislikes us so much to ultimately make use of the material our community generated. On the other, it's annoying that he can steal that material wholesale, from words we typed to images we prepared and uploaded to edit histories. I wish we could report him, but there may not be a rule against what he's doing. This clone wiki appears to have been up since January, and I figure Wikia would have taken action by now (unless they have next to no idea the clone exists). In any case, if Zulu DFA's intent is to make his clone eclipse this wiki, I don't think we have anything to fear. -- Commdor (Talk) 01:07, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Should somebody contact Zulu? See if we can resolve whatever his problem with the wiki may be? I don't believe I was online when his fight broke out, so I don't really know the full story. Seemed to make a big deal out of the Ogre statue trivia on his little wiki. Arbington 03:09, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * That probably wouldn't be a good idea. He isn't exactly the nicest person and frankly is rude beyond belief. If you missed the BioWare Forum page, which was taken down, some of his comments, weren't nice to say the least. If we are to contact anyone, it should be the staff. Lancer1289 03:21, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

I believe the Duplicate wikis section of the Creation policy may be relevant here. —RRabbit42 ( leave a message ) 03:28, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah. One of those stubborn, "beyond reason" types. Well, unfortunately, it seems like there is little we can do about it. His mainpage has a whole disclaimer-type thing at the bottom showing that this is legit. Arbington 03:30, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Material here is published under the Creative Commons Share Alike license. I'm no lawyer, but my understanding is the license explicitly allows this behavior, so long as a list of the original authors is either linked to or maintained. When a whole bunch of people forked WowWiki into Wowpedia, they chose the latter: All history (more importantly, the authors) of every page was preserved, satisfying the license. When Zulu DFA forked the material from here, he chose the former: linking to the original source history of the article here at the MEWiki. To my knowledge, this also satisfies the 'attribution' requirement of the license. As the blurb at the bottom of the edit screen states: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here."

It's important to note that this sort of forking is a consequence of the open design and licensing of a wiki. Wikia even provides tools to dump their entire database expressly for the purposes of rehosting all the content from a wiki elsewhere. This should be celebrated, not scorned. Disseminating knowledge to a wider audience (albeit not much wider), is always a worthwhile effort. Your contributions are still acknowledged (else they would actually be in violation of the license), so there's nothing to fear. If you feel pride in this particular location of the information, then it should be your goal to continue to improve this place so that the advantage of an alternate location is diminished even further than it already is. -- Dammej ( talk ) 03:36, May 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * A quick check of a few pages shows that only the most recent version of the page was imported. The previous edit history was not transferred, so it only shows two people per page have edited. For example, compare the imported page to the original page. So, even though there is a disclaimer on the front page, the rest of the material is not properly attributed. —RRabbit42 ( leave a message ) 03:48, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm, interesting. I guess I'll send a message to the staff about it then. Lancer1289 03:52, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * And do check out that creation policy RRabbit42 posted above: "Wikis which have no content, or remain inactive, or have a large overlap with another Wikia may be merged with another project, locked from editing, or closed completely." I think we have grounds to seek the duplicate wiki's closure based on the current and potential overlap, in addition to the improper attribution. -- Commdor (Talk) 03:56, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've just sent a message to the staff about it so let's just see what they have to say about the issue. Lancer1289 04:12, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow. This seems pretty fleshed out. Good thing I was at work, and my absence allowed you fine folks to get all this work done! :)
 * Seriously though, RRabbitt42 does present us with some good options here, and you guys seem to have a firm grasp of the situation, so I'd recommend going with the course of action you've already implemented: contacting the staff about the lack of attribution and overall redundancy of the wiki. Ah, ZuluDFA... he hates the ME Wiki, but apparently thinks it's accurate enough to copy and paste onto his own site. SpartHawg948 07:05, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * I did send an email about it last night and now let's just wait to see what happens. I'll post something when I hear back from the staff. Lancer1289 19:01, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you send it to anyone in particular, or through the 'contact Wikia' feature? I only ask because I was thinking of asking a particular staffer about it, but wouldn't want to be redundant. SpartHawg948 19:24, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * I used the contact feature, and from my past experiences with it, Wendy, a.k.a. Merrystar, usually responds to it. However if you have a more specific staffer in mind, then feel free to send one. But out of curiosity, who? Lancer1289 19:27, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * JoePlay, but more to just sound him out on policy rather than to actually get anything concrete done. For that, general contact would be best. This one would be more a 'so this is the situation: is our interpretation of Wikia policy correct, or do we just have no recourse?' email. I'll send it tonight after classes. SpartHawg948 19:30, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * If I get a respone from anyone at Wikia before that time, I'll leave you a message about it. Lancer1289 19:33, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha! Just kidding! I'll actually send it here in a little bit. I kinda forgot about my history midterm today (kinda forgot because it was one of those things where I remembered that I had the midterm, but failed to grasp the implications therein), and one of the nice things about being a major history buff is that tests are a joke. The 50-question midterm took about 15 minutes. Of course, that fifteen minutes also included a few minutes reserved for critiquing the test, noting (for example) that on the map portion of the test, the location corresponding to Sparta was way too far north. The professor had Sparta and Macedon right next to each other, instead of separated by all the rest of Greece. Anywho, now that my rambling is over, I'll send that email in a few... SpartHawg948 22:08, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I wouldn't bother too much about it, he may be upset over whatever policy or ruling in this wiki and is gung-ho in creating a "superior" Mass Effect wiki but I'd wager his interest will wane and eventually it will fall into obscurity and neglect. After all, it is quite an undertaking he has given himself to copy every article and file from here all in the name of tweaking a few articles where his edits weren't acceptable. -- The Illusive Man 22:37, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I see what you're driving at there. There are actually two other ME Wikis out there too (not Wikia wikis, but still), and that's basically what happened with them. One appears not to have been updated since early to mid 2009 (their newest material comes from very early pre-release ME2 info), and the other has been pretty much taken over by spammers posting porn links. Still, it is nice being the big name in the field, and the sole Wikia wiki on the topic (not counting the related but somewhat different ME Fan Fiction Wiki), and they are copying our articles and whatnot. It's also aggravating because this guy is one of the big names among the ME Wiki haters on the official forums, and it's annoying to see someone who never misses an opportunity to trash this wiki copying all its material and slapping his own brand name on it. But we'll see what Wikia has to say.
 * In an aside, I did send that email to JoePlay. I feel sorry for the poor guy... I was my usual verbose self, so it's kind of a long email, which I did apologize for. So we'll just wait and see... SpartHawg948 22:50, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed we'll just have to wait and see, but the main problem is that he's not given proper sourcing for the articles and is basically claiming credit for everything that we wrote. I think there is a few things the staff will have to say about that, but I haven't received an email from them, so they must be reviewing the thing and given the fact he's just about copied the whole wiki by now, I think the staff will probably have something to say about it soon. Lancer1289 22:53, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

Well I just got a response from Brandon Rhea, and basically he said that wikis on the same topic are allowed, but they must have proper citation, and we know he doesn’t. He continued by asking if anyone has or wanted to reach out to him, but he did offer to send a message if no one wants to stir the water with him. Personally, I think he should handle it given our past history with him. I'll let him know what we eventually decide and I've already given my opinion about the subject. Lancer1289 23:30, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think it'd be better to let Brandon Rhea do it. If someone from Wikia does it, A) It'll look more authoritative, and they'll take it more seriously, and B) It won't just look like some guys from the ME Wiki who don't like him and who have an axe to grind. I don't expect to hear back from JoePlay before tomorrow, but hopefully he'll have some useful input too. We'll see. SpartHawg948 23:43, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * OK I'll just leave him a message on his talk page at Community Central about it. Lancer1289 23:47, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Message left, now we just have to wait to see what happens and I would like to hear what JoePlay has to say about it anyway. Lancer1289 23:53, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Heard back from JoePlay, but I'm seriously running behind on this whole transition from work to school thing, so I need to get going. I'll fill you guys in when I get back later! SpartHawg948 23:40, May 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * So... here's what JoePlay had to say... he was in agreement with Brandon Rhea about the attribution thing, and his recommendation mirrored the instructions Brandon Rhea gave to ZuluDFA. That one was a no-brainer... it was a real open-and-shut case.
 * Now, on to the other issue. As to the issue of duplication, JoePlay was of a different opinion than Brandon Rhea. I'm not sure what Lancer put into the message to Brandon Rhea, but I stressed that this new Wiki is about 95-99% copied straight from ours. About the only things different are the front page and a few talk pages. JoePlay stated that he hoped that common sense would prevail, as the new wiki is a completely unnecessary carbon copy of this one that leaves no doubt there is a "large overlap". As such, I think I'll send a message to Brandon Rhea requesting clarification, and maybe that he reconsider. We'll see if anything comes of it. SpartHawg948 05:37, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well I bascially stated the same thing, that the new wiki was basically copying information from us, with little alteration, and without proper citation. However it would appear that I used different wording to communicate that. So it would now appear that I should probably let you handle this. I did leave Brandon a message at his talk page at Community Central, and that would probably be the best place to contact him. Lancer1289 13:26, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

I'll not speak for Zulu, but we set up the wiki with the intention of providing a less restrictive wiki that gets less bound in policy. Many people in BSN and on this wiki have problems with your stubbornness (coighjackharperandgethcruisercough) and with what they perceive as totalitarian control, which you seem to be proving by pulling a "no this wiki is only wiki." We're using a lot of your stuff as placeholder until we can actually get it fully set up, but our main goal is to provide an alternate source of mass effect information where people will be able to browse knowing the information they need is actually there and not non-existent due to some random policy and poor justification by wiki admins. (Seriously, I still can't believe you said Jack Harper wasn't TIM because he asked to see "the man." Really?)

It's ridiculous to complain of plagiarism. I will repeat myself-placeholder. We may keep much of your articles content as they are of a high quality, but we have already started editing your articles to what we view of as a higher and less objective standard (eg. Liara's page needs attention, with the whole "selfish betrayal") and will continue to do so. We are in the process of editing the theme. A wiki takes much longer to set up then a few days.

This is not intended to be a bash, but an explanation. I don't hate you guys, I even told lancer about an impostor on bioware social network, but me and many other people disagree with your policies, thus the new wiki. If you had listened to us and been less stubborn, there would not be another wiki. Keep that in mind

I'll post something proper later.

--Darknoon5 16:21, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * So you copy all of our articles, without proper sourcing and without citing where you got the information from? How is that not plagiarism? You take the words that people have written here, copy and paste them somewhere else, with no citation as to where it came from, then claim the words as your own. That's plagiarism, cut and dry plagiarism I might add.
 * Also I clearly remember Zulu stating on several occasions that our information was not up to quality, not good, and things were incorrect. If that is the case, then why even use our information. How about instead, do your own work, write your own articles, or at the very least, cite your information, which you haven't done. I also seem to recall that forum was taken down because all you did was basically bash us. If you have some constructive criticism, then share it, however all that we've heard is name calling, profanity, and breaking site policy to get things accomplished. That doesn't earn you any points and will generally lead to people ignoring you and dismissing your points, even if you have good ones.
 * Also I should note that all of the canon information is there and present. There is nothing left out, and the only things that get left out are subjective trivia comparisons, fan made material, and non-canon information, also known as specualtion. We make an effort to ensure that people have all the canon information, and we don't put subjective comparisons, and subjective things into articles.
 * And I would appreciate you getting your facts straight. Since I can assume that you are the same person who argued over the issue, I should again point out that the comment was based on information that was rendered out of date when the full issue was released. The comment was made in December and before the full comic was released, so it was rendered incorrect. At the time it was a reasonable assumption and I would appreciate you not arguing over a comment that was rendered incorrect by new information. Bring up that issue doesn’t make your case, and only weakens it as you pointed out something that was incorrect, but only was incorrect after new information was released. Again at the time it was reasonable to make that assumption. Lancer1289 16:39, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well stated. Can't argue against these justifications. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 16:48, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Darknoon5, of course it takes quite a while to set up a wiki. And if you were doing it honestly, I wouldn't object. If you guys were writing the articles from scratch, I'd be fine with it. But you aren't. You're jacking our articles, and are failing to give us proper attribution in the process, as Wikia has stated.

I'd also be completely fine with it if you were to contribute here, and try to work out these supposed differences like grown-ups. If there's a problem, why not try to solve it at the source? As for the subtle coughing... well, Jack Harper is TIM, as the wiki acknowledges. Not sure what that was all about. And we also acknowledge that geth cruisers exist, and were at the Citadel. We just don't go around pointing at ships saying "that's a geth cruiser!" without any proof. And I can't recall ever saying TIM wasn't Jack Harper because he asked to see "the man".

Basically, what it boils down to is: there was never a serious effort by you or anyone else (certainly not on BSN) to talk about improving the wiki. The only thing even coming close that I saw was half mature discussion, half accusations of fascism and petty name-calling. If you people had conducted a real discussion, free from juvenile attacks, we may have listened. Personally, I tend to be less inclined to listen to people when being called a fascist. If your genuine intent is to create a new wiki, then create a new wiki! Don't just rip ours off, make a few minor changes, and call it your own! That's all we're driving at here. You're just waltzing in and taking articles we've put years into building up and taking them for your wiki, which exists because you think ours sucks. How's that for irony? SpartHawg948 19:08, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Ahh hell. I wrote some huge wall of text but my pc crashed. Check back later.

One thing I will add-you guys are credited, so quit lying:

" Attribution: This entire wiki uses material from the the original Mass Effect Wiki at Wikia and is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike License." -MEWCE


 * We're not lying, as your own wiki demonstrates, as seen here, where a Wikia staffer tells ZuluDFA the following: "I see you have a notice on the main page, but that's not enough; each article you have imported needs to have a link back to the page history of the original page at masseffect.wikia.com. If this isn't done ASAP, then unfortunately this wiki will have to be closed."


 * So yeah, no lying. Perhaps it'd be best to educate yourself fully in these matters before spouting off? It cuts down on incidents of foot-in-mouth. SpartHawg948 19:25, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

I am not uneducated. Once again, you insult me when I am just trying to clear something up. Right now, Zulu is in the middle of re-importing your files with a link to the original history. So how about you educate yourself.

Incoming block-o-text:

We did try to give you constructive critiscim, but spart came in and ignored all the C&C and just refuted the inappropriate insults aimed at him, which shows how much you cared about our opinion. The thread is gone as it was posted in the wrong section, but it did have C&C but it's just your word agaiunst mine, and we know who the people here are more inclined to believe.

The general conseus is the admins and their uber-restrictive policies here are the main problem, as is proved by this poll:

You guys refused to acknowledge Jack Harper was TIM for ages even though before the comic was released Mac, who you love quoting say ME wiki is amazing instead of actually listening to C&C, said JH=TIM. It was also obvious to every bioware fan on BSN that Jack Harper was TIM, but apparently not to you. This was because it wasn't explicitly stated in the comic even though it said it was the illusive mans backstory and Jack Harper looked exactly like TIM. Another example is the dragon age ogre in Kasumi's dlc. You insist it is "Likely" a reference when it is obviously a reference. Why get bogged down in ridiculous phrasing?

See, this is my point. In one sentence you say geth cruiser is in the game, in another you say that doesn't prove it is actually intended to exist.

Also, we aren't plagarising as we:

a) Gave credit b) Are in the process of touching up your articles c) Several articles are likely to be overhauled and re-designed, and will be improved and made to a higher quality, as least as we see. That said, the main reason for the wiki is that you refuse to listen to reason+advice, but there are other issues such as your handlign of Jack Harper, timeline, trivia etc. d) If we use your content, it means we don't have to create a billion new pages for every planet, assignment etc. and can edit them once we have the pages. That said, do you honestly think we'll need to edit a page for a planet with no trivia, discussion and just the exact same description from the game? e) The layout will be different.

Finally, subtly insulting me by infering I am not a "grown-up" does not strengthen your case, either. Rather, it re-inforces the view of you as a totalitarian who can not handle differing opinions and views to your universal right and wrong. Pretty pathetic, seeing as I've come to have a reasonable discussion and have made no effort to insult you. Of course, if I did, I'd probably be banned immediately.

--Darknoon5 19:33, May 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm well aware of the supposed ongoing re-importation of pages. I also know that, as of right now, it's all talk. No re-importation has actually happened. As such, Zulu is not "in the middle of re-importing [our] files", he's only said he will later. As such, I consider myself sufficiently educated.


 * As for "general consensus", I'd like to point out that your own poll shows that far and away the most selected option is that this wiki is "Good and not too restrictive". Again, I'll point out that you made no attempt to engage in constructive discussion save one invective-laced forum post that was equal parts constructive criticism and hateful name-calling. You'll forgive me if I wanted to quash accusations of fascism on my part.


 * If you want to have a mature conversation about reforming this wiki, come on over and take part! If not, don't just come over here and bash us for looking out for our wiki, which apparently is bad enough for you people to talk all kinds of smack about, but good enough to copy almost verbatim. SpartHawg948 19:49, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have already given my thoughts about this above, but I'll restate them. If you want to give constructive criticism or have a way this can be improved, then do so in a non-insulting, non-threatening, non-confrontational way. We are always ready to accept criticism, and if you have it then share it, but if you put it inside a hate filled statement, then you are more than likely to get ignored, even if you have good points, because instead of keeping a cool head, and communicating like a mature adult, you decided to try and help, and at the same time insult, belittle, berate, and diminish the same people you are trying to "help". That isn't right as again you probably won't be heard because of that. Trying to help and insulting someone, in the same sentence, doesn’t work very well.
 * I again state this, the two of you in particular stated that our articles were junk, so here's a question, why not just write them all from scratch, since they are such bad quality. The fact you are importing them says something completely different, and I'm not just talking about planet articles. If you really wanted to be proactive about establishing a new wiki, and since the current one is such bad quality, then why even build off of it and just write everything from scratch? That seems to be the proper way to go about it as you are just importing literally everything, and claiming it as your own. Everything from templates, to images, to articles. Lancer1289 20:23, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Spart, that option has...37% in that option. So, 63% of people think the wiki is too restrictive. Glad we cleared that up. :)

For emphasis. the top three options:

Generally good but restrictive 20%(12 votes)

Good and not too restrictive 37%(22 votes)

Decent enough but some issues 24%(14 votes)

Also, I did not agree with the whole "SPART IS FASCIST!!!!" thing, nor did I partake, nor did Zulu. We posted issues such as geth cruiser, the timeline, Jack Harper, and the dragon age ogre, all of which you completely ignored, adn you posted after our posts calling you out on ignoring them and still ignored them!

Lol, you had your chance to try reforming your wiki, you've had it for months. Face the facts and admit that your policies are too restrictive. Most of the hardcore BSN usrs agree this is a good source for info, but it is too restrictive, and there are a lot of complaints about you two, paticularly lancer. Now I'm sure some of them are from people who jsut hate authority, but you two have definetly rubbed some of the more prominent posters there up the wrong way. To illustrate: (names blanked out)

[name removed] 2011-04-20 12:36 PM It's pretty obvious who the winner will be, the wiki is great, it's just the admins are asses

[name removed] 2011-04-20 1:44 PM The admins are burros. I hate them.

But I like the wiki.

Also, I'm not insulting or belittiling anybody, just stating my opinion. You're the ones calling me uneducated, insinuating that I'm not grown up. You have once agan skirted any issues I've raised and just gone "well you're not mature, you're insulting and you clearly don't want to actually give us critiscim," just as you've done to everybody else in the past!

Finally, THIS WIKI IS NOT BAD QUALITY. Some articles could use improvement, but everything can be improved. Our main problem is your policies and, to cut to the chase, you two.

And as I said, soon you will have your little stamp over everything we've used from here. So don't worry so much.

--Darknoon5 21:45, May 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I had actually intended to address all those topics after cooling down from being called all sorts of horrible names. Yet, oddly enough, when I went back to respond, the forum had been deleted. The responses you mention that were after you "calling me out" were more responses to the character attacks on me, and as such were prior to the cooling off period I describe. It's hard to respond when that is the case, is it not? If you'd like a point-by-point response, start a new thread on my talk page and ask for one. As for our having had time to reform the wiki for months, I ask: when? At what point did you come to the wiki, lay out your concerns and greivances, and give the admins and contributors here time to discuss them? Were we just supposed to magically somehow know what reforms you thought were necessary?


 * Now, on to other matters. You say "I'm not insulting or belittiling anybody, just stating my opinion." Question: Did you or did you not call me a liar? Right here in this very thread? Was I, in fact, a liar? (For those who don't want to read the whole thing, the answers are "Yes", Darknoon5 did call me a liar in this thread, and "No", I was not, in fact, a liar, as I was merely pointing out that, at the time, the other wiki had failed to provide proper attribution, a fact supported by the Wikia staffer who said as much on the talk page of the Bureaucrat for the other wiki.)
 * Another question: Did I ever call you uneducated? If so, please provide the appropriate quote. I did say that you needed to be educated on one particular subject. This is quite different from calling you uneducated. The smartest and most educated man in the world can still require educating on one particular subject. I'm quite well educated, but could stand to receive substantially more education in math, and would as such describe myself as uneducated in that one field. I also never called you immature. I stated that there had yet to be a mature conversation. For the record, the reason I said this was because the only prior conversation on the matter was the one on the BSN forum, which was extremely immature because of the actions of certain individuals such as NKKKK, who feel that name-calling makes for an intelligent argument. You, Darknoon5, seem fairly mature to me, at least from what I've seen, hence my repeated requests for two (or more) mature people to have a mature conversation on this matter. Thanks though for assuming the worst about me. SpartHawg948 22:07, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

The immature part was pointed at Lancer. Also I don't know you as a person, but I haven't really judged you. I didn't call you a liar, I called you ignorant, as you called me. You may have said I was uneducated in that area witout the intent of saying I was uneducated as a whole, but that is how it looked to me.

People have been complaining about your policies for ages, I can't believe as an admin you haven't noticed. As I said, we made a thread and poll on BSN, which you and Spart ignored, though a poster and another admin here did post in the thread.

Anyway, I have no more interest in this arguement. You now know our stance, why we made a new wiki, that we will change the articles, images etc. over time and that you will be credited. So what's the problem?

--Darknoon5 22:29, May 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * You didn't call me ignorant. You did call me a liar. "One thing I will add-you guys are credited, so quit lying". I was, after all, the main person talking about how there hasn't been proper attribution on your wiki.


 * You claim that people have been complaining about this wiki's policies for ages. I ask: where? Any time there is an issue with policies that is brought up here on this wiki, it is discussed and voted on. Just recently, for example, a vote was held about site language policies. If the complaints are on another site, I can't be blamed for not seeing them. I only go to the BSN forums if someone links something and recommends I look at it. Again, I ask you: As a mature individual, please stop with the repeated (and fairly inaccurate) chanting of "You've had your chance. This has been going on for ages." If you have problems or issues you'd like to see changed, bring them up! You've repeatedly challenged me on issues and then when I've called you out on them, have changed the subject. That sort of behavior gets old real fast.


 * Again, my problem is that your wiki is a near-100% copy of ours. It's been called out for not properly attributing our wiki as the source, but from what I'm seeing, you guys (you in particular with your uploads) still seem to not be properly attributing us. This is a blatant violation of Wikia policy. I also have a problem with the fact that, as a near-copy of our site (99% of your wiki being identical to ours) it does seem to violate Wikia's Duplication policy, which says there should not be a "large overlap" between wikis. My problem is also that, rather than discuss things in a rational manner where everyone can take part and in an environment free of hatred, name-calling, and immaturity, you and ZuluDFA steadfastly refuse to even talk to us about these supposed horrible issues that need to be resolved. Any time I try to address them, you change the subject. If it's really policy that needs changed, then talk to us about it. Don't just copy our entire wiki and put your own label on it. SpartHawg948 22:41, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * So if I'm immature, when what do you call everyone else who was on that forum which I also didn't comment on? I'd say their actions were extremely immature and don't say they weren't. I've never called anyone a name, deliberately insulted someone (there are always situations where it happens unintentionally so don't say there aren't), or done something immature like fight over something instead of talking it out in the appropriate forum. Yet that rarely happens and I'm more than happy to partake in a mature, civilized discussion, provided it is in the appropriate place for it and the topic stays on topic. So I'd hardily call myself immature and frankly it is insulting that you even directed that at me directly or anyone else. I'd actually call just about everyone else who commented on that forum, NKKKK especially, immature for just bashing people here and instead of being mature and maybe provide some constructive criticism, most just decided to just insult everyone and bash everyone, which is why both treads, and perhaps a third, were locked, and one was deleted. I also don't even think many people who commented on that forum have even posted here once, or attempted to do things by the book. If anyone wants to do something by the book, then you will find everyone here is more than willing to talk to them about it. But if someone doesn’t do that, doesn't go to the appropriate forum for their concerns (talk page, forum page, user talk page), or just starts insulting everyone else, then do you really except anyone to take then seriously? Would you?
 * As to people complaining about our policies, people will complain about anything they can, especially the rules. Now if someone did actually have a complaint, we have directed people to the appropriate places, yet, usually, nothing is done about it. I think only once has something actually been attempted to do something, even if it didn't succeed, it was still attempted. If you want to change something, or have some legit concerns, then express them in a manner which I described above. If you do it that way, then you will find that people are more than willing to discuss it with out, and something will come out of it, even if it isn't apparent right away. Lancer1289 22:46, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think that this about sums it up: I have said here, and said repeatedly, "Let's talk. Let's work out our differences, and try to arrive at some sort of common ground." What was the response from them? Nothing but deafening silence brought about by rapid subject changes. Arbington even went to their wiki and said "You say we don't want to speak with you, so you won't speak to us?" "Let's take care of things, and let's do it right. Civil discussion." Their response? "I said we don't want to speak to you. That effectively means we won't speak to you." Want to know the funny thing? As Arbington pointed out, they claimed that they wouldn't speak to us because we had supposedly refused to speak to them. What happens though when one of us tries to speak to them? "[W]e don't want to speak to you." "[W]e won't speak to you." Talk about hypocritical. You stay classy there, ZuluDFA. SpartHawg948 06:24, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey Spart, you may want to check out the latest comments on their Afterlife Club page. I think Zulu's head got a little big with this statement based on their background. And I htink the power did go to his head. Lancer1289 17:50, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

As I said, I'm done here, but I just want to say the re-import failed so we're redoing it --Darknoon5 06:51, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Front page
Thank you. I went to revert the page back, but the links had already gone. Can he be blocked or banned or whatever? Mondrak 08:51, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I undid the edit and banned the vandal. Thanks for being on the lookout though! :D SpartHawg948 08:52, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

Ralok.
I thought you might want to know that our friend ralok has just visited the new Mass effect wiki and came to our defense .--Legionwrex 18:43, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Very nice! That'll definitely factor into my ongoing deliberations... SpartHawg948 18:53, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * A surprising ally, eh? I honestly thought he still held a grudge of some sort. Arbington 22:59, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * There's an old phrase I would like to use at this point, "Never assume you know anyone and never assume that you know how they will react". Lancer1289 23:02, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

sorry
this cerburas news is just for you and a few others i got mad at :

King Tutankhamun exhibit to visit Serrice
Wednesday, May 11th, 2011 After a long negotiation process with the Confederacy of North Africa, the Galactic history museum of Serrice will be exhibiting the best example of the ancient Egyptian civilization of Earth. The exhibit will run for two (Earth Standard) months and will include the bust of Nefertiti, a replica of the burial chamber, and the burial mask of King Tut himself. Belana Torei, head of the museum, had this to say: “We are very honored to finally be allowed to showcase this wonderful example of human history in our home.” The opening ceremony will be attended by many VIPs including Matriarch Denlaya and CNA President Atef Sedki. This will be the first time the exhibit has ever left it’s home planet.

New Wiki Background Image
Hey, just wanted to let you know that if someone isn't logged in, the new image does not show up, only the old one; I did a cache dump and all that, but it's still showing the old one.

If that's intended, however, nevermind. :)--Aryn2382 09:13, May 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... that is definitely odd. We've been having some issues with this. I'll run it by some people who might have a better idea about why this is than I do. Thanks for bringing it to my attention! :D SpartHawg948 09:15, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Checking in
Greetings, mate. Dont know if you remember me, I'm from the AC Wiki, we teamed together to bring a vandal down in both our wikis in the beggining of 2010 XD So, how are you? All cool? Still mantaining that A-10? =D -- D. Cello 21:04, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah! I totally remember you! I have (unfortunately) been neglecting Assassins Creed lately though, so I haven't been on the AC Wiki much of late. Yeah, I'm doing fairly well. Still fighting the good fight and all that. I am, however, not maintaining A-10s anymore. I'm inactive in the Reserves right now, and am working as a security consultant for a big 'ol pharmaceutical company right now. How about you? Are things still going well on your end, and over at your fine wiki? :) SpartHawg948 22:10, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, no A-10's anymore =/ XD Yep, things are awesome ^^ Our IRC channel always have like 15 people at all time, we now have an apprentice program and with the announcement of the new AC game late this year and it's info, we are having over 60 thousand readers daily. So, anxious for the release of ME3? =P -- D. Cello 22:16, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Shows how much attention I've been paying. I didn't know there's gonna be a new AC game later this year! That's awesome! And yeah, I'm all kinds of excited for ME3! It's gonna be epic! Unfortunately, it's been delayed till next year, but that's ok. It'll give me more time to play other games like Skyrim and the new AC game! :D SpartHawg948 22:23, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Really? oO DAMN! I didn't knew that, what month of next year, we know? x.x Beggining or final? Anyway, yes, new AC! Now with Altaïr, Ezio and Desmond all in the same game, set in Constantinople, and even Masyaf appears! ^^ AC: Revelations is the name, and this is our article about it =] And Skyrim seems awesome... DRAGONS! *-* -- D. Cello 22:29, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Quarter 1 of next year, so sometime in the first three months. So not too much later than it was originally supposed to come out.
 * And the new AC game sounds awesome! Constantinople, eh? That ought to be good. SpartHawg948 22:31, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Ay, Im more excited baout having Altaïr with the full Brotherhood system, altough I dont believe thats exactly the case here. You played BH, right? Also, try and come by our IRC sometime I don't know if you guys have one, if not, ever tought about one? If you have one, link please XD -- D. Cello 23:00, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * There's been talk of getting one set up, but as of right now, no, we don't have an IRC channel. If/when we do get one, I'll be sure to let you know.
 * Also, no. I feel like a jerk for saying this, but I haven't played Brotherhood. I'll have to here very soon though. SpartHawg948 23:04, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for inserting myself into your conversation, but I always find it interesting when the Beau's of two wikis I edit talk to each other. Granted, it's only happened 0 times before this, but still. A.J. two 23:23, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, you're more than welcome to join in. The more the merrier! Also, glad the conversation peaked your interest! I've had discussions with admins of other wikis before, but yeah, conversations between B-Crats don't happen that often. There just aren't that many of us. I only know of one other I've talked to off the top of my head. At least, one other I've talked to while a B-Crat. That would be Ausir, who's a Bureaucrat at The Vault. SpartHawg948 23:30, May 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Speaking of AC Revelations, there are apparently going to be [SPOILER] "Convergence" memories, where Ezio, Altair and Desmond simultaneously are present. I think. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 01:03, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Apparently, that won't be a final memory. Desmond is in coma following events on BH (not gonna say why, wanna know, PLAY THE GAME! XD) and he will spend this game on a section of the Animus called the "Black Room" (opposite of that white loading screen) trying to reconstructed his shattered and stressed conscience, and that "convergence" memory where Altaïr, Ezio and Desmond paths cross is the key to him waking up... -- D. Cello 15:25, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * And we may also just find Subject 16 in there too (Brotherhood hints at it, so you have to play to figure out why). Ooh, I wonder if, in the Black Room, you play as Desmond, but have ALtair and Ezio as something similar to the Apprentices in BH? That would be awesome. But that's just me.
 * Yeah, there just aren't that many B-Crat's that have much of an interest in another wiki's content, or have enough time to go to another wiki and/or talk to a B-Crat at said wiki. So, it's interesting to me to see two B-Crats talking about the other's wiki subject, and sharing spoilers about upcoming releases and stuff. A.J. two 15:41, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry to jump in here as well, but first I just want to say this, please read everything. When I first got Assassin's Creed, I sold it back to GameStop because I lost interest in it and felt the game just kept repeating the same thing over and over. However, then a friend let me play AS II and I have to say that it was better. So I went back and picked up the first one, at a steal I might add for $2 (US). I have found that the series is good, and while I'm waiting for Brotherhood to come down in price before I get it, I have to admit, the series has grown on me. Lancer1289 16:53, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * ^^ Good to hear it. For me it was different, cause for some reason I can't pinpoint, the first game hit me in a very deep level, almost soul/philosofical one. More than gameplay, iy seemed to possess a wisdow that just plained amazed me =P That's why it was the first time I edited a wiki in my life, and look where I am now XD Fate, huh? -- D. Cello 17:25, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

I played through the first one pretty quick, and then the second one, but then for some reason my interest kinda petered out right around the time the first big DLC for ACII came out. I'll have to go back and replay it, but unfortunately, it may not be right away because I'm playing Fallout New Vegas at the moment, getting ready for when the next DLC (Honest Hearts) releases on Tuesday. And after that, Bethesda plans to have the next two DLCs ready in June and July, so that'll keep me busy too. There should be some time in there for AC though before Skyrim steals all my time away. :P SpartHawg948 20:08, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just in case none of you know, but Game Imformer's headline article this month is Assassin's Creed: Revelations. I just got my issue today. Also I didn't know Honest Hearts was coming out Tuesday! SO glad my finals were done yesterday so I can play it without interruption. Lancer1289 22:44, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I actually opened my mailbox just a little while ago and saw the new Game Informer. It was a delightful coincidence, getting that one while this discussion is ongoing. And yup! Honest Hearts is out on Tuesday. And it's got Colt M1911 .45 pistols, Thompson submachine guns, and all sorts of other cool things! I'm a little freaked out though because it's also got yao guai! Those things were such a pain in Fallout 3! SpartHawg948 22:49, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, most of us were waiting for the GI to come out. I got the scans of the ACR article, but I haven't actually read them. My bro's GI may have come today, but I don't know, because nobody's checked the mail yet today. I;m really pscyhed for it, though, and for ME3 and Skyrim as well. A.J. two 16:00, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

talk
did you want to talke to me about the videos i am only embedding videos to my user page i sord of got confused
 * No, you aren't embedding videos in your user page. If you were, there would be no issue. What you are doing is uploading videos onto this wiki and placing them on your user page. This is a violation of site policy, which is why it's a problem. SpartHawg948 20:45, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Deadmansspace147‎
I'm sure you are well aware of this guy, and frankly I've lost count of the number of times I, or someone else has told him about the Video policy, yet he continues to violate it. I don't think I could have been clearer about it. We don't allow videos to be uploaded to the site, yet he was told about embedding videos, and he still didn't do that. It's very simple, we don't allow videos to be uploaded to the site, and I really don't see what is so hard to understand about that. So what I'm looking for is this, honestly, could I have been clearer about this or did I miss something? Lancer1289 20:43, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you (or someone else... not this guy though because this stuff is all Greek to me) need to actually show him what you're talking about. Describing it doesn't seem to be doing the trick. There seems to be a substantial language barrier here. SpartHawg948 20:46, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * First apologies for the apparent edit conflict. Second I'll see about telling him how to embedded videos, but I'm not hopeful about it. Third, found something to watch yet? Lancer1289 20:48, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * First, no big deal. Momentary flash of anger. I still get those from time to time, but have really been working on keeping them in check. Sometimes a snarky edit comment still slips out though. Second, good luck. Third, no. I'm trying to watch Archer, but the same episode that was causing trouble yesterday is doing it again today. It plays for about one second, then stops and goes back to the menu. I'll have to report it to NetFlix, I think. I'm planning on showering (I just got up about 50 minutes ago and am totally enjoying my day off), having lunch and watching a movie or documentary or something, and then going back to killing things in the Mojave Wasteland! :D SpartHawg948 20:53, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Ok what did I miss while I was typing the most recent section up? Lancer1289 21:07, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * About three more videos being uploaded and then deleted, followed by a two-week ban. SpartHawg948 21:08, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, Arbington's response, and my response to his response. SpartHawg948 21:09, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, *shakes head* you would think that at least four warnings might have gotten the message across, but apparently not. Should I leave a message about the ban or you? Since you did ban him, I do think it should be you, but again I can go either way.
 * Anyway I have already responded there, and can you check your email. Lancer1289 21:14, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

My 'initiation'
Since the talk page sectionwas getting rather large, I'll talk here.

As for two infoboxes squashing info. Ah, see my view is without a sidebar (see here and here as to what i did) which will explain that. Since that's a project for users only and not actual articles, that normally isn't a problem for us. So no, I wouldn't (and don't) do that for mainspace pages as it'd force the poor reading on unregistered users. Again, it'd be better to see my more recent example as to the most complex stuff I've done coding wise (i've done a little on J&D wiki, but not quite as complex).

What I have in mind? Quite a bit. The 'prototypes' stuff I'd like to show off on the forums some time yeah (perhaps later today in my time). Mostly infoboxes, such as character, weapon and collapsible infoboxes & navboxes, which are relatively few. I've got new meta templates for both which again collapsible & I'll show off via the forums, or I could use the wiki's current meta templates if you don't like them?

Finally, I'd like to show you another of my projects; consistent article layouts (examples are jak, daxter) This is a minor thing however; most/all information has been covered in your current layouts which list by game, and it'd only really help in making new articles for Mass Effect 3, if any are needed.

So yeah mainly just examples of what I've done, and hope you guys could consider my help for this wiki. I have developed a real interest in the mass effect saga, and am really impressed by what you've done, but I want to fil in the gaps.--Technobliterator 09:30, May 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sounds good! As for the infoboxes and navboxes, by all means, start a forum thread about them. We've been doing a fair bit of revamping lately as far as the site's visuals (modifying the main page, getting this sweet new background, etc), so this would be an ideal time for it. As I mentioned previously, character boxes are currently kept brief, but it may be time to rethink that decision. Less isn't always more, after all. And the collapsible part does sound intriguing. Ditto for new and/or improved weapons infoboxes, as the current ones are kinda... blah. But there's no rush or anything. Whenever is convenient for you is fine with me too. I'm not sure what time it is where you are, but it's pushing 3am here, and my bed is calling! :P


 * As for the consistency of pages, yeah, we redid the Manuals of Style a while back and pretty well covered that, but as you say, there will be some expansion happening to quite a few existing articles, not to mention all sorts of new articles, when ME3 releases next year. (Saying "next year" makes me sad...)


 * Anywho, I'm glad you're so interested in the Mass Effect franchise, as it really is a fascinating series of games/books/comics, and I personally am overjoyed that you've taken such an interest in improving our humble wiki, so yeah! By all means, press on with this. I can't wait to see what you come up with, look forward to the discussions and whatnot (just a heads up in case it doesn't work this way at the other wikis you work on - proposals here do get discussed and voted on, so that'll have to happen here too), and look forward to working with you to spruce the place up! :D SpartHawg948 09:55, May 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * P.S. I meant to mention too that, while I'm more than happy to discuss this or anything else with you, you should be forewarned that when it comes to technical stuff (css, meta templates, pretty much anything along those lines), I'm a Dunce with a capital D. If it's technical discussions or advice or consultation or whatever that you are in search of, there's two other people I'd start with: JakePT, who is one of our admins, and Dammej, who is one of our "Senior Editors" (meaning he's got rollback powers and is sort of a quasi-admin). For anything though, even stuff like this that I don't totally understand, I'll be happy to help. If I can't give you an answer directly, I'll do my best to refer you to someone who can. :) SpartHawg948 10:00, May 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Alright, thank you :) I've created this page: Forum:New templates - What do you think to ask a community discussion, and have a couple useful links. If supported, I'll just need to give you instructions for the stuff I'm not permitted as a non admin to do (one wikia support request, a little .js and .css editing) and then get the rest done myself.--Technobliterator 10:01, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Email Part 2
Spart, you may wish to check your email as there should be an interesting read there. Lancer1289 02:35, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually make that two emails. Lancer1289 04:02, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Responded to. SpartHawg948 06:09, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Reponded to on third account. Lancer1289 06:36, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Spart, you may want to check one more time as I just responded again. Sorry for all the emails by the way. However I won't respond immediately as I'm going to bed. I have some things I need to take care of tomorrow morning so I need to get to bed. Enjoy your evening. Lancer1289 06:45, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Vandal
I figured I bother you with this because lancer has had enough, but any word on that vandal who vandalized over 15 wikis, because I have not heard of him for a while.out --Legionwrex 21:10, May 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe he's done for now. I sure hope he's bored of it, because then he's likely not to return, at least not for a while. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 21:16, May 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I haven't heard anything recently. We'll see... SpartHawg948 23:33, May 17, 2011 (UTC)