User talk:SpartHawg948

Rachni Song
I asked also Lancer about this.

I recorded some samples from the rachni song that can be heard on Luna (while on the mission for the rogue VI) and put them togetherer. I have a audio file about 40 seconds.

This is the file:

Can it be used to the rachni article? SoulRipper 22:46, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * For now, I would say no. At least not until we figure out how we're going to incorporate audio into articles, a discussion that is currently ongoing. And even then, since this is not a Codex article, and since it's not (strictly speaking) taken directly from the game (as you state that you took samples and "put them togetherer[sic]", I'd still be inclined to say no. Talk page? Sure. Article? No. Maybe, just maybe, once the discussion on audio in articles is completed, an unaltered clip can be placed in the article, but I don't want to speculate on future eventualities at this time. SpartHawg948 22:52, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * When I say samples I mean that I recorded a video which is about 5:30 and took off the "silence" parts (where there is no rachni sounds). In those 5 and a half mintues there are about 50-60 seconds of rachni sounds and quite a bit distanced the one sound from the other. Here is the edited video (from the the 5:30 long video) that I uploaded on youtube : Rachni Song Luna.


 * Its the exact audio that I exported to .ogg.SoulRipper 23:13, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd also have to agree. Right now I'd have to say no, and since the clip is a sampling, i.e. altered, I'd have to say no on that count as well. Maybe once we get this Codex audio thing worked out, we can revisit this, but I'd also have to agree that an unaltered clip would be the only thing that would be allowed. Not an altered clip. Lancer1289 23:21, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * So again, it's not lifted straight from the game. It's snippets taken and edited by you. This is just what I said, and your explanation of how you altered it does nothing to change that. SpartHawg948 23:22, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I understand what you mean about the altering. What you want is a rip of the exact file from the game files and not a recorded one, right? SoulRipper 23:28, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be preferable, but another issue I have is just posting an audio file (Additionally, I still don't think you do understand what I meant by altering. I didn't mean it had to be from the game files and not recorded, I just meant that, if recorded, it needed to be unaltered, i.e. no removing of portions of the audio to, for example, remove silent periods from the middle. When I said 'altered', I meant 'altered'). I'm not trying to cast aspersions on you or anything, but the rachni audio file you upload could be from anywhere. The way I'd be most comfortable with doing this would be linking to a youtube video, preferably one that shows both the location on the map where it is being heard, and shows Shep and company on the moon listening to it. This and the Codex audio, after all, are not completely analogous situations. SpartHawg948 23:31, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll see if I can find anything in the game files.SoulRipper 23:50, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or you could take what I said and seemingly ignore it. Whatever works. I do so love having 90% of my message being ignored in favor of the 10% that works best for others. Really makes my feel my opinion matters. SpartHawg948 23:55, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

I want space
Small thing. I would like to move "Codex/The Master Thief:Kasumi's Secrets" and "Codex/The Veteran:Zaeed's Secrets" to "Codex/The Master Thief: Kasumi's Secrets" and "Codex/The Veteran: Zaeed's Secrets" respectively (notice the spaces inserted into the titles). As this is a fairly small correction (the spaces, while present in the game and used in aliases on the Codex article, were for whatever reason not factored in by the articles' creators here), can I go ahead and do the moves without the week-long debate? -- Commdor (Talk) 22:57, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Seriously? Are you trying to make finding articles more difficult than it already is for me? :P Frankly, I don't care. This one seems like a clear-cut case of "the titles are wrong, so it's okay to move it without asking" to me. SpartHawg948 22:59, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okey dokey, smokey. -- Commdor (Talk) 23:01, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... would that make you The Bandit? Not sure how I feel about that... SpartHawg948 23:03, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

And FYI, isn't it almost time for a new Featured Article? Let's see if we can't get you to post one on-time one of these days. :) -- Commdor (Talk) 23:17, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you're talking about. I nearly always post on-time. It's just a matter of perspective. All I need to do is post sometime between Midnight tonight, and midnight tomorrow night. If I post it at 11:59 pm on Wednesday night, I still meet my deadline. And I just so happen to be in California, so even though I meet my deadline, to you it will look like I didn't, since you're a few hours ahead of me. SpartHawg948 23:36, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Armor mis-links; and related question
I've noticed on several occasions that armor links (especially [or maybe only?] purchased armor) send the viewer to the N7 Armor page, which does not contain the relevant information. For examples, Omega Market: the links for the armor inventory items. FYI. I can correct some links as I come across them (I won't correct that market for now, so it can serve as an example), but I thought you might want to know as well. p.s. why do we have the same info on N7 Armor and Armor Customization? or better yet, do we need them both? AnotherRho 04:53, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the thing is that it used to link to the correct parts of the N7 armor page, which used to contain all the relevant info. However, the armor pages were revamped some time ago, causing some links to seeming have these issues. So yeah, if you'd like to fix them, by all means. As for why we have the N7 and armor, well... we really don't. There's a section about customization on the N7 armor page, but it's just a blurb with a link to the Armor Customization page. And yes, we need both pages. We need the armor customization page to cover armor customization, and how much sense would it make if we had individual pages for all the armor sets except for N7 armor? SpartHawg948 05:01, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea the revamp was a good idea, and I've been trying to find the conversation where we did it. Unfortunatly I can't seem to find it right now. However becase so many armor pieces were being added, having them all on the N7 Page was overtaxing the page and moving away from what it was supposed to do, which is present the N7 armor. The customization page is a much better place for that as now all the armor pages match in their content and we have moved the massive amount of armor parts to their own page. Lancer1289 05:08, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I see, N7 Armor, Inferno Armor, Cerberus Assault Armor, etc. That being cleared up, then the only problem is the incorrect (i.e., useless) links.  I'll fix any I find.  AnotherRho 05:15, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Most will be on the shop pages, I'll go around and fix them as well. Lancer1289 05:16, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

ref DO NOT REMOVE COMMENTS LEFT BY OTHER USERS
http://masseffect.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Mass_Effect_2_Guide&action=history That is not another user, it's still me typing from work not logged in. Says so in my profile too. The comment I deleted is old and has no meaning there anymore. You can delete this message at your convenience. Thank you Perj 05:21, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Your profile mentions nothing about being that unregistered user, and even if it did, it would not be considered valid proof. After all, I can go onto my user page right now and edit it to claim I am any of a number of unregistered users. The fact remains that registered user Perj removed a comment left by an unregistered user, and there is simply no way to verify that this unregistered user is, in fact, you. If the comment is old and has no meaning anymore, then delete it while not logged in and while using the IP that added it. This is the only acceptable way to remove a comment from the talk page. It HAS to be removed by the user (registered account or unregistered IP) that added it. SpartHawg948 05:44, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Rachni Song INGAME files.
I found the files!!! The sound is crystal-clear BUT...the downside is that there are 4 files (UNC Sand-animal 1 ot 4). If I take those 4 files and put them the one after the other without changing anything, just import the files as they are to the audio editor and export a .ogg file, is still concidered as alteration? Also I have extracted all the codex entries from the first ME game. (Edit) Lancer I want your opinion too. SoulRipper 17:42, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Remember the other objections I had? The ones you breezed over instead of answering by announcing that "I'll get in-game files"? Please address those before I consider this, as one of my objections would render this whole thing moot. Additionally, you've got all the Codex entries, eh? Ummm... good for you? Not sure what you want me to say. Dammej is working on that currently. SpartHawg948 20:17, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Since I was asked for my opinion here it is, I'd have to side with Spart on this one that there are still may things to work out first. The thing about combining them into one file is it is still an alteration. We have absolutely no way to confirm that there wasn't anything additional added to it. Remember even space, or silence, to music, such as splicing them together, is still classified as an alteration. The things you learn in Music Theory eh. The only way I can see this working is that all four files are uploaded individually. That is the only way I can see, and I'm not sure even that would work or look good. Personally I'd like to see those other objections Spart brought up addressed before moving any futher. Lancer1289 21:11, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1st I know that there are problems that have to be solved before a audio file will be added to an article. What Im saying is that when and if you need those files, I have them and I can give them to you.
 * 2nd If you dont trust me, I can tell you what file is in which the rachni sounds are located and how I extracted them and do it yourself so to be sure that I didnt added a few miliseconds of silence or something.
 * 3d You know something...Just forget about it. I feel like I have done something wrong or killed somebody. I just want to help. SoulRipper 21:48, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * What? I don't understand. I think there's a language barrier issue here, because I don't think that either Lancer or SpartHawg were trying to degrade you or state their mistrust of you in any way. SpartHawg is only asking that you at least acknowledge the other issues he raised before you bring up the issue again. I can't speak for him, but it's extremely frustrating when someone continually asks "Can I do this now?" after they address one objection, but haven't looked at others. It wouldn't change the answer, because not all objections have been addressed.
 * Your contributions are most certainly welcome and appreciated. I doubt Lancer or SpartHawg will flat out refuse an addition of the Rachni song to the wiki that satisfactorily addresses their concerns. But until you do address those other concerns, they're not going to be very receptive to continued pushing for its addition. -- Dammej ( talk ) 22:10, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Once again, I'm not calling into question how the audio would be presented in article. We've gone over that, and I feel that we have a sufficient understanding of the issue that we don't need to re-hash it, which is why it wasn't one of the concerns I was referring to. As such, I don't see why you even brought it up.


 * Next, did I say I didn't trust you? Nope. In fact, I went out of my way to reassure you that this was not the case. Please don't try to make this a me vs you thing, as it isn't. My concern is that it's far and away more helpful, easier, and a better idea all around, to simply link to a video demonstrating the rachni songs as well as demonstrating where people can hear them. Extracted files from in-game do not do this, nor are they easily verifiable, like in-game footage (in the form of a video) would be.


 * And I understand and respect that you are just trying to help. I have no idea why you feel you've done something wrong. Have I accused you of any misdeeds, or addressed you in an accusatory tone? No. I've tried to help bring this idea to fruition, but (and pardon the language), I also want to ensure it isn't done half-assed. Do it right or don't do it at all is my motto on these matters. Funny thing is, I also want to help, which is what I've been trying to do. SpartHawg948 22:16, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, I completely get it and sorry for the trouble. Maybe I got a little (A LOT) to "excited" and lost it. Now really the video thing is a lot better and maybe Ill go for that. Im really sorry again.SoulRipper 22:38, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I also know that you are trying to help, and I respect that, but things like this need to be done carefully. As to the video idea, that seems like a much better alternative than dealing with the files, as it can be easily recognizable and verified by just playing it. I have also been trying to help with this as it would be a great addition to the article, however there were some major complexities that needed to be worked out first. Which now they have with that video idea. Lancer1289 22:56, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean with: however there were some major complexities that needed to be worked out first. Which now they have with that video idea.SoulRipper 23:04, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * The biggest ones were the alteration and verification thing, which is easliy solved by the video. The third one was how to incorperate it, which is still an ongoing process with the narriated Codex entires. Once that is worked out, then we can figure this out. However since we decided on linking videos, that problem is somewhat mute. That is what I ment, the video problems solves most of the issues, but there are still some, like how to link the videos. Lancer1289 23:56, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * You mean that the problem is how to add a video to the article? Does this looks OK or is something else that you want?SoulRipper 00:24, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't look ok. If you'll note, the video you uploaded is now nominated for deletion (and will be deleted very shortly) as a clear-cut violation of site video policy as enumerated in the Community Guidelines. When I said 'link to a video', I meant link to a video, like on YouTube or something, not insert a video into the article, which is a site no-no. Additionally, an unaltered video would be nice (i.e. one without big red letters all over it). SpartHawg948 00:28, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes bye bye video indeed. Liking an unaltered video from YouTube or something like that is the only way to put it in. Also it would just have to be linked, and not embedded or displayed in the page as a video, just a link, as I think that would also violate the Community Guidelines. Lancer1289 00:32, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Have both of you lost it? Did I said that this video would be added to the article? Did I added it to the article? It was my Blog and had a "VIDEO TEST" headline above which is still there. And where did I uploaded the video, in the Wiki mainspace? I pressed the button which sas "Add a video", pasted the Youtube adress and it added the video there. Does a 152 MB video uploads in 3 seconds? I dont think so. And your General FAQ, its not clear at all. That "If you want to link to a video to prove an edit is not speculation, add a link at the bottom of the article" it talks about articles not for user pages, blogs or talk pages. Either you make it clear and say that NO videos are acceptable at all or stop mocking me with that "Yes bye bye video indeed". OK? And then you say that "I respect that you want to help". Where does this show and I dont see it?SoulRipper 08:18, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow. Just calm down and take a few deep breaths. And maybe reconsider who here has "lost it". Because I seem to be doing ok. No, you didn't add a video to an article, and yes, it was your blog. However, to do so, you had to upload it, which means that it was uploaded to the mainspace, which is not permitted, as I explained to you. You could just as easily have embedded the video, which would have caused it to appear and play without having to be uploaded, and would have been perfectly acceptable. And yes, the General FAQ is pretty clear. It says if you'd like to use a video, LINK IT. Uploading a video is not linking it. This is linking a video. It's not hard. And you want to know where I showed that I respect your desire to help? Just re-read this thread. Each and every time I offered advice or suggested a better or more appropriate way to do something, I was respecting your desire to help. Did I ever, EVER refuse to answer a question? DID I EVER REJECT ANY OF YOUR REQUESTS OUT OF HAND, OR TELL YOU TO STOP EDITING? No! ALL I have done is try to help you edit constructively. Don't come onto my talk page and give me crap for it. SpartHawg948 08:27, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow the things you miss when you sleep. Anyway, I use that quote on a few pages when I delete them. It isn't meant as an insult, just me trying, and failing apparently, to lighten the mood a little. However since it was apparently taken as an insult, then I apologize for that and I add another reason to my list of times that text has been misinterpreted. I do respect anyone that wants to help and try to assist if I can, or at least point them in the right direction. As to the video it is a violation of the Guidelines, and as such needed to be deleted. Linking it is the only way to go with this, rather than embedding the video in the article. Have I also ever refused to answer a question, or tried to assist? Not as far as I can remember. I have always tried to help, and I also never told you to stop editing. I have also tried to help, and I get blasted for it. Lancer1289 12:55, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Im sorry, but that really pissed me off. I didnt even saw that nomination because I was also sleeping. I added the video, I closed my PC and the next morning I have the video deleted, a dozen of comments to the blog and accusations for violation. About the video...I couldnt embed it. I copied the embed code and it was not showing the video but the code so I pressed the "Add a video" button. It didnt asked me to point a video file in my computer to upload. It asked me to paste a link from a site like Youtube, Dailymotion etc, and so I did. I dont think that that was a upload, because it took 3 to 4 seconds to show the video after I pressed the "Preview" button and a video about 152 MB cant be uploaded in 3-4 seconds (at least with conventional speeds and I definitely dont have a T3 connection and I think that neither does wiki). It had to be a embed. But anyway, if videos are not allowed at all, that doesnt matter.
 * I know, that video is not good BUT my point was to ask about how it looked like that (not the video but how it was placed). What I got it was that I violated the policy of the site and stuff. The only thing that was needed it was just a no. One way or another I would delete the video because it was just a test not a permanent thing.
 * Anyway, I apologize for my behevior.
 * Now I want to go back to the video thing.
 * I recorded 3 videos, one for each of Luna, Altahe and Nepmos. Each video starts from the cutscene that shows the Mako get dropped from the Normandy. Then I show on the map where is the place where the rachni song can be heard and drive the Mako there. After that I show the place around and untill the end of each video there are rachni sounds that can be heard. The duration is around 3 minutes and some seconds, uncut, no edit (not even the volume) just a fade out at the end. I have default armor and weapons for every squad member.
 * The videos are 720p HD, recorded with Fraps. Here are the links: Luna, Altahe, Nepmos. Also when recording the Altahe video, Fraps did some s--t so the video has about 4-5 seconds with about 1-4 fps but the sound is OK.
 * Also on Aeia I didnt heard any rachni sound but one who is similar to the "short sound" that can be heard on the 3 planets in the first game. Its more like some animal is doing that sounds (the whole place looks tropical) rather than some rachni, all the other sounds are bird sounds and environment sounds (water, wind etc). I was listening for about 6 minutes.
 * One more thing that I want ot mention is that the rachni sounds resemble (and can be possibly influenced by) the sounds that the whales do, for example as can be heard in this video. SoulRipper 16:53, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don’t know about Spart, but I’d rather have the links over embedding the video. Because we have that no video policy, embedding is fine on a user page, like how GrandMoffVixen has his page, but I really don’t think it should be done in articles. While the videos are good, the audio, even on Nepmos it is clear. The only problem I have is the travel time, but I can easily shrug that off as in-game footage and a necessity. That is really the only gripe I have with it.
 * As to whether I prefer links or embedding, I’d prefer links over embedding, otherwise we might send the wrong message about the video policy. Also could you please tone down on what you type. I don’t know about Spart, but “bulls--t” is still swearing/inappropriate language to me. Lancer1289 18:51, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

OK, the bull thing will not be typed again. Also thats what exactly I was trying to do like GrandMoffVixen. I checked how he embeded the video and is completely different than for example embed a video to a myspace page where you just get the embed code, paste it and its done. Now about the driving time I kept it so to be uncut from the landing till the end and to show how to go there because Spart said about showing where is the place where the song can be heard. I will agree with you about linking. If embeded it cant be full size because its to big for an article. If scaled down (as a thumb) it will not show good and any user will have to go to the site where the video came from. So either way (scaled-down-embed/thumb or link) will have the same result, so I think better add a link. SoulRipper 19:08, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Driving thing I said I was fine with, because it also shows people where to find it for themselves. As to the embedding, I would have to say that no matter how we do it, it wouldn’t turn out well. A link is a good way here as it works out better, and eliminates a lot of hassle. Lancer1289 19:16, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Now when I look the rachni article it concerns me where those links can or should be added. At the trivia where it says about the song?SoulRipper 19:41, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

I just want to point out, in response to your comments, none of my messages in your video blog were accusations. Not one. I simply pointed out (as it seemed that you were unaware) that there was a site policy prohibiting what you did. There was no accusation there, and I do not appreciate your claim that I did accuse you of anything. This 'wild rant folowed by an apology' thing is getting real old, real fast. I would strongly suggest that, in the future, you take a bit to cool down and actually read what has been said thoroughly before going onto other peoples talk pages and leaving messages like the ones you've left here. Now, as Lancer said, embedding video in the articles is a no-go. They will have to be linked. No ifs, ands, or buts. SpartHawg948 19:49, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah the trivia section seems the best please for the links. And it seems that links is the only way to go. Lancer1289 20:01, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Clear enough. Also as I said earlier I didnt noticed any rachni sounds at Aeia at Jacobs mission. I think that this claim is not accurate. The only sound that can be heard is a sound which is similar to the short sound that can be heard on the 3 planets from the first game and unlike with the songs to the first game, that sound on Aeia can be heard anywhere while the rachni song can be heard only at a specific place on each planet. SoulRipper 20:19, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Erinya talk
Sorry I've moved to your talk page (shouldn't happen again), but I'd rather remove this question farther from the article. I know you exclude speculation for the reason you gave. I agree with that policy (I've removed some speculations myself). It is ironic that you were speaking in the same mode to me as I was trying to speak at first. More could be said, but rather than make this any more protracted, satisfy my curiosity: off the record, in your opinion, is it likely that we, the players, are meant to think of the (only) two named asari (who are not the Consort) from the presidium of ME1? E.g., if you were to ask me the same sort of question about Aria and Aleena, I would say that, from the point of view of the game (i.e., as a work of art), it is clear that the Aria is meant to recall Wrex's Aleena, even though no one says so in ME1 or 2. AnotherRho 07:54, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't really answer as to whether we are meant to think that these are the two being referred to, at least not (I suspect) with an answer you would find satisfactory. I know I didn't think that she must be referring to Nelyna and Saphyria. Of course, I also don't really think that Aleena and Aria are one and the same. I can see why some people would think that, but I also don't think there is anything substantive to either of those theories, just as I don't think there is anything to the related theory that Matriarch Aethyta is Liara T'Soni's other parent. SpartHawg948 08:01, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is nothing substantial to the claims about Aethyta and Liara's parent (or anyone else and her parent). But au contraire mon ami, your answer satisfied me very much.  Thank you for answering!  AnotherRho 08:04, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. And, just as you say there is nothing substantial to the claims about Aethyta and Liara, I feel there is nothing substantive about the theory that the Consort greeter has to be Nelyna, when we see several other asari working there, and when (based on Nelyna's own comments) 'greeter' doesn't appear to be a dedicated position but rather one that is likely filled by whoever is not with a client at the moment/for the day, and that the Embassy worker has to be Saphyria when there are, in all likelihood, a plethora of asari working at the embassies. Ditto for Aria and Aleena, when asari mercs seem to be very common, and with none of the 'connecting info' being very uncommon. It's all common turns of phrase and such. There is literally as much substance to those theories as to the Liara/Aethyta theory, IMO. SpartHawg948 08:09, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, since you responded in such detail, I'll add that the latter claim is based on the statements that Liara doesn't know her parentage, is pureblood, and that Aethyta has a pureblood daughter. But there is nothing specific to any of those (and to boot there are other purebloods in-game).  The other cases are different (although Erinya's case is the weaker and less important); but everything depends on the fundamental fact of the game.  Once one is in-game, the specifics become radically specific (e.g., no one else says "Better luck next time"). The entire story is similar. Compare Shepard and the Council: his hard evidence is actually pretty weak; the Council won't buy it; but in-game (for the player), there are sufficient hints and suggestions as to convince the player that there are meant to be giant, world-destroying sapient machines, waiting to demolish all advanced life in the galaxy (if you think about it, if ME2 didn't end with the cutscene of the reeper fleet, there would be no solid evidence [not even the derelict ship] of the reepers at all; a big ship here, a hologram there, some bad dreams, villainous races, etc.).  But so as not to tire you with this any longer... thank you for the conversation!  AnotherRho 08:40, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

And 'better luck next time' isn't a common phrase? Just saying, Liara says she never knew her other asari parent and (IIRC) postulates that this could have been due to some unpleasantness between Benezia and the other one. And Aethyta has a pureblood daughter she's never met, due to unpleasantness with the other parent. Clearly there's just as much to suggest a link here as there is to connect Aria and Aleena, especially when part of the evidence is that both have said 'better luck next time', or something to that effect. After all, there are plenty of other asari mercs in game. Certainly way more asari mercs than there are purebloods. I mean, what are the odds of meeting first an asari pureblood who never knew her other parent, and then an asari parent of a pureblood who never knew her daughter? If anything, there's a more solid 'case' here than there is for Aria and Aleena on the basis of 'better luck next time'. SpartHawg948 08:50, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea that Aria and Allena case is somewhat slippery, and so is this case and Aethyta and Liara. Overall I don' thing there is much to back up any of the three cases. As to why people think that way, it's probably because something is suggested and they immediately think that because there is no other theory presented, then that must be the case. As to whether I believe it, I honestly don't believe any of the three cases. While each has some, very minor, support, they are all based mostly on speculation rather than facts. Lancer1289 13:45, September 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, the Aria-Aleena, etc., cases are "speculation". But tell me, what would be a fact? AnotherRho 20:21, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess it would be fact when it is said explicitly in a canonical way through game, novel or comic. There is a certain amount of deduction that one can make but there is always going to be some amount of assumption within that. I personally feel that that Aria/Aleena being the same person argument holds quite a lot of weight from the dialogue with Aria, but I wouldn't argue against someone who thought otherwise because it is after all speculation. FridgeRaider88 20:33, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, a fact is something explicitly stated or shown, such as the fact that Liselle is Aria's daughter, or in rare circumstances something that is not shown per se, but can be inferred, such as the fact that when the screen fades to black during any of the romance cutscenes, Shepard and the love interest are in fact (to quote ZZ Top) doing the tube snake boogie. SpartHawg948 20:40, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. If Aria said, "I was once called Aleena", that "fact" would be no more trustworthy than her claiming to have once changed her name, been a commando, been a merc, pissed off a Krogan, preferred to disappear rather than kill someone, etc.; she is such a shady character after all. (the tube snake boogie? nothing reptilian about those hairy guys) AnotherRho 20:46, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, for starters if there was anything more solid to go on than: the fact that she was once a merc (which seems very common for young asari, as evidenced by overheard conversations throughout the game, particularly on Illium), the fact that she's used many names (extremely common for underworld figures, just ask Paul Johnson, err, Grayson), the fact that she says "better luck next time" or some form of that very common phrase, the fact that she pissed off a krogan (not hard to do, as she seems to have pissed off several, just as the Patriarch), and the fact that she makes a vague comment about preferring to disappear rather than kill someone. Maybe if she referenced a fight on a space station, or Urdnot Wrex (who is well-known enough in ME2, assuming he survives Virmire, that it could reasonably be expected for well-informed people to know who he is), or something along those lines. Now, were she to say flat-out that one of her former aliases was Aleena, that would be enough to treat it as fact unless something non-dialogue was revealed that contradicted her being the Aleena, as we have it from good authority (writers for the game) that dialogue from characters is at times inaccurate and ill-informed. SpartHawg948 20:53, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Spart, I know I won't persuade you, but I want to at least make sure you have more of the facts (even if for the refuting). Her preference for disappearing is told with a moment of softness in her voice (Wrex said Aleena was always a bit of a softy).  And she speaks of some salarian creditors claiming that they were more entitled to her money (a quantity of money apparently sufficient for her to begin operation coup-d'Omega); and Aleena had chosen to fight Wrex on an old salarian space station, the complete destruction of which she was a first cause (since she chose it).
 * If, however, it is true that writers have confirmed that they are not remarkably competent (as writers), then I, too, would not believe that the allusions to the two young asari in the presidium, and Aleena, were intended to be reminders of the first game. (To infer anything from a writing or story, one must have in mind (a) that it is an artificial work, and (b) that the maker has minimal competence as artisan). So, fair enough. AnotherRho 21:29, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * And I in turn feel the need to remind you that the space station may have been built by the salarians, but was no longer used by them, as it was serving as a base for pirates and mercs when the fight took place. And, since that was at least part of the reason it was chosen, I can't say I agree with Aleena being the 'first cause' of its destruction. Blame either the pirates or the salarians themselves for that. Again, there is literally as much evidence to support this theory as there is to Aethyta being Liara's other parent, and there are far fewer common occurrences cited as 'evidence' in the latter theory. End of the day, there's really only one fact that matters - there is no confirmation (veiled or otherwise) that Aria is Aleena. None. SpartHawg948 22:03, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I remember. But you do well to remind me that the chain of "blame" or responsibility always leads back further, ultimately to the big bang, or to the cause or causes of that.  Still, you may be right; better cautious than rash, in many cases.  Thank you SpartHawg for generously answering my questions.  AnotherRho 01:09, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's what I do! :) SpartHawg948 01:15, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Just throwing this out there... doing a new playthrough, and while conversing with Aria, she informs the Commander that her fight with Patriarch was the most difficult fight of her life. This makes me a little more skeptical than I already am about Aria being Aleena. After all, Aleena was wounded badly enough to be forced to seek medical care mid-fight, and was only able to escape Wrex by blowing up the space station they were on. Seems hard to imagine a fight between Aria and Patriarch in Afterlife that is more difficult than that, especially in light of the fact that, as of 2185, Aria, Patriarch, Afterlife, and Omega are all intact! :P SpartHawg948 07:58, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

LotSB Talk Page
Since the Talk:Lair of the Shadow Broker page has gotten extrememly long, and it doens't appear to be slowing down, I was thinking of archiving the whole talk page on the 6th. The main reason was to get all of the pre-release stuff off the talk page so issues after the pack comes out can be addressed. What I was thinking of is putting a notice at the top of the page warning users that the page will be archived at 00:00 UTC September 7th. Just wondering what you think about that? Lancer1289 20:06, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I dunno. It's only 17 sections, and it's not too terribly long yet. SpartHawg948 20:11, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well its the actual size of the page, which is almost 65,000 bytes. Currently the guidelines are 50 comments or 75,000 bytes, but there is also that week waiting period after the last comment pushes it over one of those two requirements to archive the page. Since all the current stuff on the page is about pre-release material and questions about it, most if not all of them will be answered when the pack comes out. I was just thinking that we could prevent the page from getting longer with people commenting in threads that are already answered like how some people edit talk page sections that haven't seen any activity in a long time. If you are against the idea, then I'll desist but it was just something I was thinking about so that when the pack does come out, issues and questions with it can be brought up and answered without having to sift through the pre-release comments. Yes I know that is just going to the right sections, but its conversations like the weapons section, that might get additional comments about how there were no weapons and the whole conversation was incorrect, even though the conversation ended over a month ago. Lancer1289 20:21, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I'm not really a huge fan of using the size in bytes as a parameter for archiving. I'd prefer to keep it confined to actual length of the page, and I don't think the page is long enough to warrant archiving yet. It's a very new talk page, and I just don't see the need to cut off conversations that are ongoing at an arbitrary point, such as 00:00 UTC on the 7th. SpartHawg948 20:43, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright then, I'll drop the matter. Lancer1289 20:45, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

I thought you might be interested to know
The Zaeed in ME3 thread at the BioWare forum is starting to really put some roots down. Might actually accomplish something after all, eh? Arbington 21:06, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yay! We can go kick it with Zaeed in ME3! Moment of shame- I do have to admit though, across all my playthroughs, I've only had one squad member killed, and it was Zaeed, in my very first playthrough when I sent him to lead the distraction team in the Collector Base. I thought, "who better to lead a squad then the co-founder of one of the top merc groups in the galaxy, and the one who used to lead the men, to boot!" Turns out, I was wrong... :( SpartHawg948 21:25, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Paradoxically, he can hold the line by himself while you abort the baby Reaper. What a guddamn badass. -- Dammej ( talk ) 21:30, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

There should be an update where if you pick him he doesnt die.--Legionwrex 21:27, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * You would think their should be. He's had experience in leading men, surely he can do so again. I mean Kasumi can go into the vents, why can't Zaeed be a squad leader? Lancer1289 21:31, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

If Zaeed isn't back in ME3, I'll be pissed, to say the least. It takes a big godamn hero to save the galaxy, and when you need a big godamn hero, you've really only got one choice (other than Shepard). Zaeed's your man! SpartHawg948 21:36, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

That is if he isnt hell bent on getting revenge on vido, if you took the parogon rout and didnt gain his loyalty he would probably let shepherd and his whole team die just to kill vido.--Legionwrex 21:43, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * (Edit Conflicts Abound)I know, Zaeed totally should've been able to survive! As for the thread, we aren't nearly done yet. A fifty post thread that tends to be on the front page is by no means going to attract BioWare's attention, at least not yet. I just thought you might be interested to know we're making progress. Arbington 21:44, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflicts indeed) He might let this "Shepherd" person die, but given that he can stay loyal to Commander Shepard even if you let Vido live in ME2, I doubt he'd let Shepard die. He'd probably just demand that Shepard help him kill Vido after they save the galaxy. SpartHawg948 21:45, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, Zaeed seems pretty loyal to Shepard, and either outcome for his loyalty mission leads to possibilities for his return in ME3. Arbington 21:49, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Are you kidding, knowing zaeed he would sell out the whole galaxy to the reapers on the condition that they find vido and bring vido to him just so he could kill him in person--Legionwrex 21:49, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Which is why he did just that in ME2? Ummm.... no. He fought loyally alongside Shepard. Zaeed isn't stupid. If he sells out the galaxy to the Reapers in exchange for Vido, he gets revenge, but then loses pretty much everything. He's too savvy a businessman to sell out the galaxy (thus undercutting his entire business) to get revenge on one person. He's a lot smarter than some people give him credit for. SpartHawg948 21:52, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * (I Absolutely Despise Edit Conflicts) Or, Zaeed could see it as Shepard owing him Vido's head. Those who choose to delve into Zaeed's character and personality would learn that he's not just loyal to cash, but that he has a whole "honor" thing going for him as well. H would most certainly not sell the galaxy to the Reapers, at the very least. Arbington 21:54, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict again) Indeed. He makes it pretty clear how he feels about Reapers and their minions, and you're right. He's not the type to make stupid deals like selling out the galaxy or betraying Shepard just to get Vido, especially after ME2, when he sees firsthand that Shepard is likely his best bet at getting to Vido and killing him in the first place. SpartHawg948 21:57, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Well for the poeple that let vido get away, if there is another loyalty mission in ME 3 I hope you can do a paragon inturupt to stop zaeed from killing vido--Legionwrex 21:56, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Vido kinda shot Zaeed in the face, left him for dead, took over his until then reasonably moral Blue Suns, and turned them into an amoral killing machine. Vido kinda deserves to die, at least in my opinion. Arbington 22:02, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Atleast in my option that doesnt give zaeed the write to kill him, he should be brought to court where he can pay for his crimes.--Legionwrex 22:05, September 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Regarding Zaeed selling out Shep., Zaeed says in effect (within his cargo hold) that he understands the enormous importance of the mission. - Regarding Zaeed not being able to lead the distraction squad (although he can lead the survivors back to the Normandy without incident), I've a similar question. When Shep. goes for the Reeper larva, what determines if someone dies while defending the door? (The only thing I've been able to guess is that you have to leave a sufficient number of hardcore soldiers. E.g., if Zaeed returned with the Normandy survivors, and Shep. took Grunt and Miranda to the Reeper, Mordin always dies at the door (regardless of loyalty). But if Jack and Miranda come with Shep, no one dies). - So, when Shep. goes for the Reeper larva, what determines if someone dies while defending the door? AnotherRho 22:06, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict AGAIN) Right... because courts solve everything, huh? Vido does need to die, and Zaeed needs to be the one to do it. Did Vido have the "right" to shoot Zaeed in the face? No! The Terminus Systems are lawless! There are no courts. It's the Wild freakin' West! It's time to go out there and kill some dangerous criminals! SpartHawg948 22:09, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

I did not know he shot zaeed in the terminus systems, but still killing Vido would not be the "paragon" thing to do--Legionwrex 22:12, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Really? Killing a murderer who hires terrorists and kills innocent civilians wouldn't be a paragon thing to do? How so? SpartHawg948 22:13, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * As for your question about the holding the line bit, AnotherRho, it's actually explained in the Mass Effect 2 Walkthrough: Mass_Effect 2 Guide. SpartHawg948 22:13, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Spart, you're the man. AnotherRho 22:16, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I do what I can! Long story short, always send Mordin to escort the survivors back to the Normandy! :) SpartHawg948 22:17, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Well jacobs dad was just as bad and saving him is the pargon thing to do,and if there is the option to stop zaeed from shooting vido(assuming this scnereo even hapens in ME 3) how mutch do you wanna bet you will get paragon points for stoping zaeed from killing Vido.--Legionwrex 22:18, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but you're glazing over the real issue here. The paragon option in Zaeed's loyalty mission ISN'T stopping Zaeed from killing Vido, it's saving the lives of all the people who would die if you make killing Vido your first priority. It isn't "Killing Vido = Bad, Letting Him go = Good", it's "Putting Revenge First = Bad, Putting the mission first and saving lives = Good". SpartHawg948 22:21, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well said, Spart. Arbington 22:24, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

I know what im say is in Mass effect 3 if zaeed has a gun pointed at vido head and you stop him from shooting YOU WILL GET PARAGON POINTS I say this as a fact--Legionwrex 22:25, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * How's that a fact? The game isn't out yet. Arbington 22:26, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah Legion, what do you mean you say it as a fact? Are you claiming to have inside info? -- (Spart): If I'd only read that guide before.  I always sent Zaeed with the survivors since he's a guy who has survived for 20 years as a lone merc and bounty hunter (cf. his little speech about suicide missions); who else on the team could make it while escorting sheep, alone, through the Collector Ship but Zaeed?  But it turns out anyone loyal can! Oh well. AnotherRho 22:28, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I sent Grunt the first time because he was big and tough and could take care of himself. So don't worry, it's not just you. And Legion, you have to realize, that even in the Paragon route, KILLING VIDO is still the ultimate objective! It's why you keep going after you save the refinery, which is the mission, after all. So I just don't see a "let Vido live'" paragon option in ME3. It just doesn't make sense. SpartHawg948 22:31, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Its a fact because ive played this game so many time I know what will earn you paragon point and doing that WILL EARN YOU PARAGON POINTS' sorry if im being aggresive.--Legionwrex 22:33, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) You know what? The more I think about it, the more that letting Vido live in ME3 sounds like a Renegade option. It goes like this: You corner Vido, he makes you an offer, likely in the form of lots and lots of cold, hard cash, and/or joining your squad or putting the Blue Suns at your disposal. Paragon route - you stay true to your word and help Zaeed kill Vido, a lying murdering scum-bucket. Renegade route - you betray Zaeed, killing him, and siding with Vido. Makes more sense to me than letting a murderous liar live being the paragon route. SpartHawg948 22:35, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh I see, that kind of fact. - Spart, an interesting point (kind of like Morinth-Samara). Another curious path would be if (assuming an ME3 Zaeed-Vido encounter) they allowed Shepard such a paragon interrupt, which then served to distract Zaeed, which enabled Vido to shoot (or even kill!) Zaeed... followed by a quick death to Vido, anyway. AnotherRho 22:38, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Im sorry but why does every one keep saying "EDIT CONFLICT" what does that mean,And you realy consider killing a man backed in a corner surendering "a paragon option" wow.--Legionwrex 22:39, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. After all, you could use your Paragon points to talk Saren into committing suicide. Paragon options aren't always about doing nice things, even to bad people. I can see staying loyal to Zaeed as paragon, and betraying him to make a buck as renegade. And edit conflict means that the post was edit conflicted - i.e. someone else posted first, so the person had to re-post and is putting edit conflict to explain that any redundancy is a result of the conflict. SpartHawg948 22:42, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Who ever said you had to kill zaeed to stop him, just give him a famous sheperd speech about morals.....--Legionwrex 22:47, September 4, 2010 (UTC) and then punch him in the face to gain his loyalty lol.
 * Right... because Zaeed will just let Vido go. That makes sense. Oh, wait. It doesn't. Not sure that any words from this "Sheperd" person would do any good either. It makes sense here. Just look at Morinth. What's the Paragon path? Killing a woman backed into a corner. Hmmm. Killing her. Not taking her into custody, or letting the courts decide her fate. Not everything is nice and fuzzy and happy and cartoon-y. Sometimes the best possible option still involves death. If you could go back to Germany in 1932 and shoot Hitler, would you? Seems like a mighty paragon thing to do to me. All I'm saying is, letting Vido live seems as likely to be a renegade option as a paragon option, or even more likely, IMO. SpartHawg948 22:51, September 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Vido is the kind of guy who would do whatever he could if he thought he would have more advantage by that route. He is the guy who authorizes/orders his mercs to betray those miners who found a prothean beacon; why? Because they'd gain more money that way than by doing their job = serving as arms/protection-for-hire. So, if backed into a corner, he'd plead, call upon your pity, need of money or arms, etc. (like what he does to Zaeed if you take the Renegade route in ME2). Accordingly, his "surrender" would only last as long as you had him in that corner. -- As for Spart's overall point, compare the entire plot: Shepard's overall action is to save the galaxy from destruction = Paragon; to do so requires all sorts of dirty work.  Still, it's an interesting question, what would be the conditions and consequences of Vido living through this (hypothetical) encounter. I'll bet the writers have tossed around such things... but with fewer edit conflicts. AnotherRho 22:53, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Um hittler killed millions vido kill a few thousand inderectaly, im not saying that he shouldnt die, im saying you sould just let the courts do it for you, even if it was in the terminus systems the council would still try him like they did with sidonus,ok they didnt try him but they still took him in to cusody and will most likely try him.--Legionwrex 22:58, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * But the Council didn't put Sidonis on trial, nor does anything we hear suggest they will. They have no idea what to do with him, as they can't extradite him, and his crimes occurred outside their jurisdiction. And now you're playing with numbers. "well, Vido only killed thousands, indirectly". I'd love to see sources for that. SpartHawg948 23:01, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

im ready to get roasted for saying this but maybe if this galaxy has to sacrifice its morals to survive,it doesnt deserve to survive.--Legionwrex 23:02, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Your 'letting him live = paragon' theory just doesn't make sense. In fact, despite what you said, it doesn't make sense to people who've played the game many times. It shouldn't make sense to anyone who has played Samara's loyalty mission even once and taken the paragon route. Paragon does not mean letting a monster live! If it did, Morinth would be alive. And Vido and Sidonis are hardly analogous. Sidonis sold out his friends under duress, and the guilt of it ruined his life. Vido happily sells people out left and right for a quick buck, with no indication that it weighs in his conscience at all. SpartHawg948 23:05, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Paragon options include covering up what even sympathetic observers call war crimes (what Tali's dad did to geth), convincing a man to kill himself, and letting a mother kill her own daughter (when, as you insist about Vido, it would have been preferable to hand her over to asari authorities). This is a galaxy that isn't sacrificing it's morals? But killing one vicious murderer would somehow cross that line? In what warped reality? SpartHawg948 23:10, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

In my "warped reality"!!!--Legionwrex 23:12, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with SpartHawg. Being good isn't always pretty. Being bad isn't always so ugly. Killing Vido, in my opinion, is doing the galaxy a favor. Morinth hadn't done nearly as much as Vido, yet killing her is the Paragon choice. Arbington 23:15, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Right... war crimes, egging a man on to suicide, and assisting in committing filicide are moral, but killing one mass murderer isn't. Sure thing, pal... SpartHawg948 23:16, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Fine then.--Legionwrex 23:22, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Xenophon
Ever read his Education of Cyrus (Cyropaedeia)? Or anything else by him. (Nice new quote. Hanson is an interesting guy). AnotherRho 05:05, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have not read that one. I've read the Anabasis, and am familiar with some of his other works in other fields, but that's about it. And yeah, VDH is one of my all-time favorites. Everything he writes is fascinating, IMO, whether he's talking Homer and education, or the Peloponnesian War, or comparing Epaminondas and Sherman and Patton, or immigration policy, and I hear his books on agriculture are pretty interesting too. SpartHawg948 06:01, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * He's not a bad speaker, too. He always has an interesting and fairly unique (or "controversial") analysis or conclusion to draw from his historical studies. I'd like to read his book on the Peloponnesian War. - I ask about the "Ed. of Cyrus" because, if you liked "Anabasis," you'd surely like ththis one.  Where the "Anabasis Curou" ("The Upward March of Cyrus") deals with Cyrus the Younger, the "Education of Cyrus" deals with the Elder and the founder of the Persian empire (in fact, the last chapter references Xenophon's later experience in Persia).  It's at once about the formation of Cyrus' empire and the end of its political foundation; or, about Cyrus' education and the education he provides us, and his lack of understanding of education.  Not unlike the other, it reads like a novel.  In any case, it's a great book that I at least couldn't put down (more than once), and if you like to read at all, especially military/political works, I recommend it (I'd highly suggest the 2001 translation by Wayne Ambler, Cornell Univ. Press, whose readability and accuracy to the Greek are excellent, in my experience).  Has some great speeches for the quoting, too.  AnotherRho 16:39, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hanson's book on the Peloponnesian War (A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesan War) is very good. It's interesting because it isn't a strict chronological account of the war, per se, but more an examination of different "phases" of the war which he maintains the war consisted of. He talks about, for instance, the phase of the war where Sparta essentially attempted to starve Athens out by burning the farmland surrounding the city, as they were unable to breach its walls, the relatively quiet phase that soon followed, when Athens was hit with a terrible plague (the one that killed Pericles), a phase in which irregular warfare was used extensively around the periphery of the war (this part features Brasidas prominently), etc, with my personal favorite being the "Horses" phase, where he examines the Athenian debacle at Syracuse. All in all, it's a great book, and after all this description, I may just have to dig it out and re-read it... :) SpartHawg948 20:47, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

Proper Names
Since you are probably getting just as frusterated with it as myself, based on one of your edit summaries yesterday, I was thinking since we only refer to Mass Effect as ME etc, and since it still happens where the abrivations and ME1 make it into articles I was thinking that we put it in the MoS that ME1 or Mass Effect 1 is unacceptable in articles becuase it is the incorrect name, talk pages are fine, but not in articles. Also this is more a personal thing, however I don't think abrivations like ME, MEG, or ME2 should be in articles to begin with. This would be another subsection under editing. As you stated to me previoulsy somewhere, it's hard to enforce rules if you don't write them down, and this one is frequently broken. I made a sandbox for it so it doesn't clog up your talk page again. See here for the proposal and we can have the discussion on that talk page. Lancer1289 05:46, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that sounds good, and you'll get no objections from me. SpartHawg948 06:02, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright then, that was fast, one addition coming up. Lancer1289 06:05, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

Ralok
Er... hey. This is kinda awkward, but I've been talking a bit with Ralok on the Red vs Blue Wiki. I learned about you guys' argument and his subsequent banning, and though I'll definitely try to stay neutral on this matter as best I can, he has had a bit of an... apologetic tone. He (and I) understands why he was banned, and fully accepts that he was in the wrong. Though he doesn't want his ban lifted, he'd like the limit changed to August 24, 2013, as he believes he will more likely then not have changed by then. The blog where this was discussed can be found here. For the record, I do not at all advocate racism or accusations of racism. For one of my age, I've experienced enough racism to last a lifetime. I am aware that he was in the wrong. And so is he. Essentially, I'm acting as a messenger between you and he to deliver his apology. Arbington 20:43, September 6, 2010 (UTC)