User talk:Lancer1289

Welcome to My Talk Page. If you don't find an issue that you have brought up with me in the past, then please check my archives because I have moved a lot of it to there. However I ask you to NOT edit there, just drop me a new message to bring up the discussion again. To leave me a message, please click on the "Leave message" button above, rather than just editing the whole page. That way I know what to look for. Thanks.

Please do leave me a new message unless there is a conversation that is already in progress that you wish to comment on. If you have a question that has no bearing on a conversation that is under a heading, then please don't edit there. Just leave me a new message. For example, if you see a section called Help, but your question doesn't relate to what the conversation was about, then PLEASE don't edit in that section, just leave me a new message. The comments will be moved to the end and I'll create a new section for it.

Email
Lancer, check your email. I'm heading out, so I won't be able to reply (if necessary) until later. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:53, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * What a coincidence, I was just about to email you. I'll just reply then. Lancer1289 (talk) 20:55, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I suspect a sock puppet.
I don't want to go make baseless accusations and throw people under the bus, but this Gavin Hossel guy has some strikingly similar qualities to that of User:Charles Saracino, not to mention he showed up the day after Charles ban.--Legionwrex (talk) 21:10, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * We are watching. Lancer1289 (talk) 21:12, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Who is "we", you're the only one I alerted.--Legionwrex (talk) 21:13, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * We are watching. That is all you need to know. Lancer1289 (talk) 22:28, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay???--Legionwrex (talk) 22:32, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * We are watching. That is all. Lancer1289 (talk) 22:34, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I might be over-reacting...
But if not, we might well receive another warning from the Wikia Central. On the MC vs. Shepard blog, Mr. Mittens has brought up the matter of the fanfiction blog (one you ended up comment-locking). While the discussion didn't contain any death threats, it had certain responses that might warrant a warning to certain users.

I sincerely hope that this is false alarm and whatever you do, please don't close commenting on that blog. Best regards, 4Ferelden (talk) 00:47, September 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * No death threats have occurred. The only way that this goes any further is if TW takes it there. --Mr. Mittens (talk) 00:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Please when leaving messages, please look at the situation that came up before and if it isn't that serious then please don't open with that line.
 * I will still look however. Lancer1289 (talk) 03:33, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Please Help.
User Ardent Clerk Bosker Apologist has started a political debate on my talk page (for no apparent reason) and has been insulting and hostile towards me ever since, even after I informed him that he was breaking site policy and asked him to stop. Please take a look, it is under the politics section of my talk page.--Legionwrex (talk) 03:42, September 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * The user has been blocked for harassment. -- Commdor (Talk) 03:43, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you Commdor, for whatever reason I seem to have an admin-sized target for hostility these days.--Legionwrex (talk) 03:47, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Apologies for not taking care of this sooner but I hope you can indulge me. One thing I learned from my recent match is what is worse than four Shadows with Cerberus Harriers? Lancer1289 (talk) 03:59, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's all good. I haven't played ME3 in so long I've actually forgotten what a "Shadow" is.--Legionwrex (talk) 04:11, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I was kind of hoping for a response based on two big BioWare games, or just a simple "What?" Well what is worse than four Shadows with Harriers, is four Shadows with lightsabers and Force abilities. Lancer1289 (talk) 04:20, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Get this, Ardent just sent me a message via X-box live further harassing me.--Legionwrex (talk) 04:36, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * How does he have your gamertag? If hit continues, then just report him and block communications. Lancer1289 (talk) 04:40, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's on my user page, anyways, it turns out it wasn't him, but rather TW6464 pretending to be him for whatever reason.--Legionwrex (talk) 04:42, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * What? Ok this is getting out of hand. I'd still report that and block communications. This is why I never have and never will put my gamertag on my user page. Lancer1289 (talk) 04:42, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah I don't know what the H*ll is going on, TW6464 is sending some pretty creepy messages.--Legionwrex (talk) 04:46, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you share? --Mr. Mittens (talk) 04:48, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just block communications and be done with it. Lancer1289 (talk) 04:50, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

I have to cut in here. I'm friends with Ardent Clerk Bosker Apologist, and I helped him set up his account here (What he chose to do with it was of his own accord). I'm communicating with him via Skype right now and he says he is NOT responsible for these Xbox messages. It must be someone else. --Mr. Mittens (talk) 04:45, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

These are the messages from TW6464 in order.


 * "Springrollio..."


 * "I am not Ardent Clerk Bosker, btw, its...TW6464. and my friends"


 * "No Im completly serious, there are 6 other frequent posters with me"


 * "We can all explain at at later date, we are Helping"


 * "keep calm, we mean you no harm, We intend to bring greatness to the wiki"

Creepy, huh?--Legionwrex (talk) 04:54, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok that is a really creepy, especially when it's the first thing to read in the morning. Bluegear93 (talk)

Blood Pack Punisher
I just wanted to pop in and let you know I removed a note on the Blood Pack Punisher page that another user added and you edited regarding the effects of AP ammo. After your edit, the page said that AP ammo is unnecessary with the Punisher because of its inherent armor piercing ability. I found this odd because no other weapon with armor piercing/cover penetration properties mentioned AP ammo being unnecessary.

Through some testing I've noticed a clear difference in the effectiveness of the Punisher with any ammo that does extra damage to armor or weakens armor. Using the console I removed both squadmates and went 1v1 with a Brute. There is a very noticeable difference in the number of rounds required to take him down when AP/Cryo ammo is applied. If this was inappropriate, please let me know and I'll remove it, but as I mentioned before, it's not consistent with the other weapons and I believe it is incorrect.

Sorry for the long message, I'm just trying to make things as accurate as possible here and don't want to step on anyone's toes. If this message is unnecessary or in the wrong area (Punisher talk page?), I apologize, and feel free to contact me and delete it. --M storch (talk) 16:45, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I"m not sure what you are talking about. I've only undone edits on that page so some explaining is needed. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:00, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

The page previously stated "As the Punisher already does extra damage towards armor, adding an anti-armor ammo power will make it become overwhelming." which you reverted to "As the Punisher already does extra damage towards armor, it renders anti-armor ammo such as Armor-Piercing Ammo obsolete--unless your playstyle revolves around shooting through cover." I feel the former statement is somewhat correct, as there is a noticeable difference in anti-armor capability, and the latter statement is flat out wrong. As I said before, no other weapon with armor piercing ability has this disclaimer, so why should the Punisher, especially when it's not true? --M storch (talk) 17:11, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh that. Well at the time it seemed like removal of content as there was no edit summary given. When no edit summary is given for an edit, it makes it hard to determine whether or not someone is either correcting information, or simply doing something because they found something different, which is also why we ask users to leave them. If it is incorrect, then it does need to go or be changed, but a summary goes a long way. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:29, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I'll keep that in mind for future edits. I'm here to help out, but I'm new and don't know the proper procedures. Thanks for all the help. --M storch (talk) 18:13, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * The only advice I can really offer is that you just need to feel the waters and feel your way around. Every wiki is different and therefore you just need to feel around. Lancer1289 (talk) 18:28, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

My idea
Hello. I wonder if there is any place for the idea i had in that blog of mine as you said i can't have it here (for personally, pretty silliy reasons) I know of ME fanfiction but i wonder if they do stuff like that there.

Could you give me a link to the fanfic site?

--Hello (talk) 15:33, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * I unforunetly cannot help there as I don't know any links. I know there are some, but just google ME fan fiction and you should get a few. I do know of two on Wikia's network itself but again I can't remember the links. Lancer1289 (talk) 15:48, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Deleting blog comments
Can you delete blog comments without them being violations of the rules? If possible, I'd like the comment thread that started with TW6464 and devolved into arguments about blog spamming deleted as none of it was germane to my post. If not, then I'll just ignore it. Thanks! Trandra (talk) 17:51, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Have your tried telling us to stop? I'd rather we start dealing with problems ourselves then keep running to admins at the first sign of trouble. --Mr. Mittens (talk) 17:53, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Tranda, to be fair, I was merely stating that I had the same character builder blog. I was not trying to advertise anything TW6464 (talk) 17:58, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * I was not trying to start anything TW6464 (talk) 18:01, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Since it is your blog Trandra so I can delete comments at your request. I shall delete it now.
 * However, Mittens does have a point, you could try asking them to stop before coming to one of us. At the same time Mittens, some people just won't stop even if you tell them to. Lancer1289 (talk) 18:00, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Lancer. As you said, "some people just won't stop even if you tell them to" so I wanted the comments deleted (and am unable to do so on my own). Lately I've been around less and less because the overall feel of the wiki has been very dismal, and I just didn't want to get involved with it on my blog post. Trandra (talk) 18:07, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I've been thinking of starting a few projects to get the focus back on content and away from the blog scene. I hope you will stick around to see what I came up with. Lancer1289 (talk) 18:10, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * It will probably take me a day or so to write everything up, get things organized, and then present it in the project forum. Lancer1289 (talk) 18:17, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

quick formatting questions

 * 1) #REDIRECT Citadel: Negotiator's Request is this how to make a redirect
 * 2) do we need voting approval on redirects for "obvious" keywords (ex. Elias Keeler -> Citadel: Negotiator's Request or Kaidan Alenko/Unique Dialogue -> Kaidan Alenko/Unique dialogue)

T̴̴͕̲̞̳̖̼̱͒͛̎͒ͫ̃ͧeͩ̈̽̈҉͓̝̰̼̦̫̤̀͠m̫̪̪̯̻͎̫̅̇̓̇͌̚p̸̙̝̓̓͌ͨ͆ͣͥ̂̕o͒̽͐̽͏̞̬̻͕͔͕͚̰͍͠͞ṙ̢̞͚͈̹̰ͨ̓ͭ̈́̌ạ̢̧̪̹̺̺̣̹̲͂͆̏ͪͨ͒ͭř̹͈͜͠y̷͍̻̜̹̼̾̽̈́e̵̹̼̟̦͚͐̈́͌͘d͉̲̣̻͉̱͗̅ḭ̷̻̆͋̆̓̔͝t̨͍̦̫̗͂̅̍̋̆ͩ͝ộ̫̟̬̳̝̲̾ͫ̒̿ͮ̑̚rͯ̎ͨͭ̄̿̽͛҉̠̫̱̠̘̘̲́ͅ7̩̻ͤͩͨ͝͡8̜̣̙͇̻ͨ͛͛̆͒̆̽̒͐͜͡ ͥ̍̉̃̇ͥ̓ͨ͏̕҉̥̹͓̗̤̠̖̤ (talk) 18:25, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Answers are yes and generally no, but there are some that are just unneeded. Just use common sense when making them. There is such a thing as overload. Lancer1289 (talk) 18:29, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

alright then, i'm laying off point number 2 entirely. i am, however, adding a mugshot of keeler to the page... T̴̴͕̲̞̳̖̼̱͒͛̎͒ͫ̃ͧeͩ̈̽̈҉͓̝̰̼̦̫̤̀͠m̫̪̪̯̻͎̫̅̇̓̇͌̚p̸̙̝̓̓͌ͨ͆ͣͥ̂̕o͒̽͐̽͏̞̬̻͕͔͕͚̰͍͠͞ṙ̢̞͚͈̹̰ͨ̓ͭ̈́̌ạ̢̧̪̹̺̺̣̹̲͂͆̏ͪͨ͒ͭř̹͈͜͠y̷͍̻̜̹̼̾̽̈́e̵̹̼̟̦͚͐̈́͌͘d͉̲̣̻͉̱͗̅ḭ̷̻̆͋̆̓̔͝t̨͍̦̫̗͂̅̍̋̆ͩ͝ộ̫̟̬̳̝̲̾ͫ̒̿ͮ̑̚rͯ̎ͨͭ̄̿̽͛҉̠̫̱̠̘̘̲́ͅ7̩̻ͤͩͨ͝͡8̜̣̙͇̻ͨ͛͛̆͒̆̽̒͐͜͡ ͥ̍̉̃̇ͥ̓ͨ͏̕҉̥̹͓̗̤̠̖̤ (talk) 18:36, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fine. Lancer1289 (talk) 18:42, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

i lied. saw clerk bosker redirected to citadel homecoming, figured why not. haveagoodday. -TE78

having multiple pictures of enemies
Lancer, I was wondering: why do we only have one picture for enemies that have multiple forms? For example, the Blue suns soldier page has only the human and Batarian version shown, but there is a turian version, too. What I'm asking is, is it possible to have multiple pictures for enemies that have multiple forms?--TW6464 (talk) 13:06, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * The template wouldn't be able to handle multiple forms, and even then, there really is no need. One picture is more than enough. Even if one were to combine them into the same format, then no detail would be shown. Lancer1289 (talk) 23:48, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Ok thank you--TW6464 (talk) 13:06, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

An odd question.
This is kind of a weird question, but because I know other wikis have a policy against this, I'll ask. Is it possible for a user who was banned to become a senior editor, or even an administrator?--Legionwrex (talk) 23:44, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. As far as I know there is no policy preventing that, but I'd recommend asking Spart that question since he'd be able to give you a definite answer. Lancer1289 (talk) 23:46, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, well thank you for pointing me in the right direction.--Legionwrex (talk) 23:50, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Unjustly Banned.
Is there a place to go if you are unjustly banned and wish to report a admin, because after this run in I had with Charles Saracino, I would like to do that. Why don't you take a look here and tell me if this ban was just, --Legionwrex (talk) 03:38, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

I would contact a member of the staff over on Wikia Central, because that's pretty obtuse.

--The Milkman | I always deliver. 04:02, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Would you mind giving me a link to a good staff member to report it to.--Legionwrex (talk) 04:04, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

This might help. If that doesn't go anywhere, I'd contact a member of the staff directly on their wall.

--The Milkman | I always deliver. 04:11, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Charles and I have reached an agreement. No report will happen, although it is nice to have this just in case.--Legionwrex (talk) 04:15, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism Spotted.
This user vandalised the Citadel: Scan the Keepers page. I have since reverted the edit made by the user.

--The Milkman | I always deliver. 04:01, September 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Got it. FYI the first link in your comment goes to a blog post on the Elder Scrolls Wiki. -- Commdor (Talk) 04:09, September 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Whoops! That's what I get for multitasking. Thanks! --The Milkman | I always deliver. 04:13, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Missing Title #1
I'd like to point something out to you, regarding the issue about Asari as a gender. I'd like to make it abudantly clear, that Liara does not in anyway state that "She's not precisely a woman". She does not say this in ME1, I can show you the exact cutscene of it. If Shepard questions the subject, she'll simply repeat the same old sentence. Just pointing it out, skipper.
 * And that is where you are incorrect, to a very large degree. Lancer1289 (talk) 13:49, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Mono-gendered means that the Asari only have 1 and only 1 gender, but through the eyes of an Asari it is of course not considered to have any real meaning. Considering they are used to it, and that's the way they are and always have been due to the way they reproduce and how they are able to do it with any species of any gender.

~ Anonymous Contributor
 * Thanks for assuming that I am completely ignorant of what the term means and merely repeat what I already know. You have yet to present anything to justify either of your edits so either present it or stop because you are incorrect. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Lancer1289 (talk) 13:54, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Commander Shepard: You wanna relationship with me? Even though we are both women? Liara T'Soni: We Asari are mono-gendered, Commander. "Male and female do not have any meaning for us". We do however have maternal instincts, so perhaps we would fill what you consider a female role.

In the above sentence she doesn't specifically say that the Asari aren't exactly women, what she really does is simply repeating the same phrase again. To humans and other races, an Asari is considered female certainly. Since the Asari don't have experience with dealing with males, because they only have 1 gender they consider it invalid. It's not the same as saying they aren't women at all.

There you have it

~ Anonymous User
 * Did you ever consider what happens if Shepard is male? Clearly not. And the fact you keep capitalizing asari, despite it is never capitalized in canon, tells me even more. Lancer1289 (talk) 13:58, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and please do not resort to anger as I'm not trying to provoke you and it really is unecessary. We are both intelligent people, I never assumed you were ignorant. We aren't people from the BioWare Social Network after all. We can discuss it gently. I'm simply pointing something out, that I personally think is a misleading interpretation of what Liara states. No need to be defensive about that.

~ Anonymous User
 * Read my previous comment. Lancer1289 (talk) 14:02, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, very nice. Insulting my own intelligence simply because I mistakenly capitalized the term "asari" despite the fact I never insulted you. What specific conversation with Male Shepard are you referring to though? I wanna believe you are right here, believe me, but I need to know. After I've watched it, and if Liara specifically states that she doesn't consider herself a woman, then I'll take my statement back and apologize. Sounds fair, skipper? ;)

~ Anonymous User
 * I've seen and heard that line if you pursue a relationship with Liara as a male Shepard. You completely and utterly removed a male Shepard from this situation because you clearly never experienced it. You can't do that just because you have experienced it from only one gender. It is not a misrepresentation, it is accurate. Just look on YouTube and you will find it. Lancer1289 (talk) 14:11, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

I admit I didn't consider that, because I thought the information relayed to male Shep would be relatively the same. Pretty much all of the dialogue is, between both gender which isn't something new for recent BioWare games, so it is odd why Liara wouldn't relate this information too. But there was honestly no need to act so condescending towards me. I apologize for my assumptions and bid you a good day, Lancer.

~ Anonymous User

What is going on?!
Something is weird with the help page. All headlins text is like doubled and it stands stuff like "MoreHelpMoreHelp" Is this just a problem for me or is something wrong?--Hello (talk) 17:34, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I have really no idea what you are talking about really. Clarification needed. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:54, September 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's hard to explain right here with text and everything but whatever. First: Did you check the help page about changing text? The problem was there. Secondly: The problem was that headlines are all screawd up. As already mentioned, The headline text is doubled so it dosen't just say "More Help" it says "More HelpMore Help"


 * You get it now?--Hello (talk) 18:01, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * No I don't see anything wrong with the help pages and I really don't understand what you are saying. Lancer1289 (talk) 18:05, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Guess it was just temporary. Anyway what's up?--Hello (talk) 18:11, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Triginta Petra fuss
This Wiki has a page on Triginta Petra which has a note at the end to the effect that the name means "30 Stones" in Greek. It does not, of course. Triginta is a Latin word for 30, not Greek. The Greek word "Petra" means (large boulder) rock rather than stone. So this is a case of the developers having fun. It's a chimeric combination of two dead languages, but more, it's a sidelong reference to Tina Fey's "30 Rock" TV comedy, which lasted (so far) six seasons. Bear in mind the planet's description - that "if you last five seasons, you officially know what you're doing". There appears to be a user who objects to this and persistently reverts the note to say that it's Greek, which is simply wrong. SDoradus (talk) 09:57, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * After reviewing the article history, your first edit, and subsequent edits can be taken as vandalism. We do not under any circumstances permit signatures in articles, and repeated attempts to put it in will result in a ban. On top of that, you were edit warring, another bannable offense. There were far more appropriate places for you to take up your point than come close to being banned for your actions. There are talk pages, or the other user's talk page before it got to this level. Now to the point, there is no reason for me to take your word over the article and, given your actions, I have even less reason to. Get a source and then it can be discussed. Lancer1289 (talk) 15:18, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

For the sin of including my signature, I unreservedly apologize. Having come to that article from a different ME wiki where the signature is in fact encouraged, I simply did not know the rule. As regards edit warring, I reverted twice, the other user reverted three times. Neither of us updated the other's talk page, in my case because from the edit comments left I judged it better to bring the issue here. If this is not the appropriate forum I also apologize. I note that some kind person has since edited the text to include the provable element of my edit. SDoradus (talk) 04:01, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

SDoradus, I was the one who originally put the trivia about the name meaning there. Translating it directly resulted in "Thirty Stone". I immediately made the connection to 30 Rock, but I didn't put it on the page because things like that usually require a source. So I left it as is. I wouldn't have an issue with anyone changing it from "Thirty Stones" to "Thirty Rock", since it translates the same way, but we can't put it as a show reference without developer confirmation. Also, you had that trivia written in a way that wasn't anywhere close to the accepted format, so know wonder it was taken down. --Mr. Mittens (talk) 15:32, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

That's fair. I'd observe that "petra" is a greek singular noun, so at the very least "stones" should be "stone". Which is another pointer to the TV show, I'd be inclined to think. Someone mentioned there is an MoS (Manual of Style?). I will look for it. I'd say since you made the connection at once others might too, but it's less likely twenty years from now that such an obscure pop culture reference will be noticed. Not that it's unreasonable to require a word-of-god developer source, but I'd tend to think it a weakness in a reference work. SDoradus (talk) 04:09, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Live Chat Voting Process
I'm just wondering if there's been any kind of discussion or progress among the admins regarding Live Chat guidelines. I don't really feel comfortable freezing the voting process if I don't know how things are going on your end, and I don't really think you guys want to be debating forming policies relating to things that haven't been voted on by the community yet. I'm thinking about unfreezing the voting. That way, the community can decided whether or not to have a Live! Chat, and then the admins can figure out the logistics of it and implement it when it's ready. I haven't been getting as much feedback from admins as I had hoped for, so I'd really like some input on this. It you're against me continuing the voting process, please tell me what I can do to get my project to that point. --Mr. Mittens (talk) 18:05, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I told you I'd be moving as fast as we can, and we are. These things take time, and the problem is that you didn't give us much to work with to begin with. Less than two days I might add before you opened voting. The thing is that if it is voted yes, and then nothing is done, people will complain while we try and sort everything out. You can't say yes, then say "oh the logistics are being work on, so just wait and have patience." You need to have a system in place first before people can say yes, so they can say yes with an informed opinion.
 * The reason you aren't getting feedback is because you basically opened a can of worms and didn't think about who'd be cleaning it up. I was expecting something like this sooner or later, but since none of the proposals until now have had any lasting impact, it's always gone by the wayside. You didn't even inform any admins, nor did you ask a question of any of us, when it would be appropriate to open voting or if we should comment. You just can't do that. There are a lot of things that have to be worked out first before voting was started and you just drew up the forum, drew up policies without consulting any admin about how this was to be implemented, then opened voting less than 48 hours later. You just can't do that. Things take time, and the way this went about was not in favor of you. We are moving as fast as we can but you need to realize that it takes time and you just went so fast and didn't even come to any of us first.
 * And what to I say at the top of my talk page about leaving messages? Lancer1289 (talk) 18:17, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I abode by both of your draconian talk page rules, so don't try to drag that one out on me. Anyways, I have given admins plenty of opportunities to weigh in on the policy. Initially, I went to Sparthawg for his input before I even made the page, and you jumped in and told me that all I needed to do in order to create a proposal for Live Chat was to "justify it", which I did. After making the page, Commdor stated that the community was able to green-light the policy, but admins are responsible for hammering out the details afterwards. This led me to believe I wasn't responsible for suggesting a conceptual policy or any rules to speak of, but I did so anyways. You later came by to move the page to projects, and simply told me that that was where pages without immediate voting went. After I discussed the policy with numerous users, I felt we were ready for a vote. I had been led to believe that I was doing things that were within my appropriate level of authority. Please don't accuse me of opening up a can of worms when you were the one who said that you didn't "have an objection" when I presented it to you. Had I known that there would be so many things that needed to be worked out before I could make a policy page, I would've done so.
 * The reason I'm trying to follow your end of the process is because I want to be sure that you're not just trying to sit on the proposal until it goes away. The fact that there have been several previous unsuccessful attempts when the community seems quite willing to vote for Live Chat has caused me to consider that possibility. You're very adamant that I've made all the wrong choices when forming this policy. Just tell me something I can do right, then. --Mr. Mittens (talk) 18:51, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * You did open the forum for discussion, but you came up with guidelines and opened voting without discussion of the proposal of guidelines. I did not object to the forum being opened because that is your right, as is everyone's. Anyone can open a forum for anything really, but the proposal itself was quite rushed because of misinterpretation of comments, not reading comments, or over-eagerness.
 * Let me point something out, Commdor in fact did not state that admins were responsible for hammering out the details afterward. What he did say is "[t]o be clear, whether or not to implement chat is up to the community, but the implementation itself and the rules and procedures that will govern chat will be handled by the admins." What this means is that while the community can open the proposal and vote on it, but not before all of the details were hammered out first. That way, everyone knew what they were voting for and everyone knew what they were getting into. We are working on it as fast as we can, but patience is needed. Especially given the fact that we were rushed into this. Lancer1289 (talk) 19:05, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * If you felt that the proposal was rushed, you should've said so last Wednesday when I suggested it. I didn't need admins to tell me that I "had the right" to propose it, I needed to know if it would work out. I've asked you twice now if there's anything I can do to help. If I'm not going to get answer, then I leave this in the hands of the admins. --Mr. Mittens (talk) 19:24, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * The only thing you can do to help is give us time to discuss and hammer out the details. Again, these things take time, and you moved the proposal through so fast that we didn't eve have time to discuss the fine details, hammer anything out, let alone get past "what are we going to do". Holding the vote for now is probably the best thing until we have have everything sorted. We are exchanging emails as fast as we can, for obvious reasons, but we are still trying to get things sorted out as quickly as possible. We just need time, but as stated, we didn't get a lot of it initially. Lancer1289 (talk) 19:32, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Check your email, Lancer. -- Commdor (Talk) 19:51, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Checked and replied to. Lancer1289 (talk) 19:58, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * And replied. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:06, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * And replied as well. Hopefully for the last time. Lancer1289 (talk) 20:22, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe not. It's a very small issue though and can wait, as you'll see. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:29, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * To save sending another email, I'll just say here that your latest message has been received and acknowledged. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:34, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

What the hell
Why are the images i uploaded changed back to the lower quality, crappier versions? --MSV Estevanico (talk) 03:55, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * They are of lower quality. The smaller image size is a point of that. At this point, none of the images you have uploaded are good enough for articles, and they never have been. We put .png images above .jpg or .jpeg images. I'd highly recommend at this point to stop uploading images because so far, nothing you have uploaded, or a small minority, have been acceptable. Lancer1289 (talk) 05:26, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no. His images are of decent res, are in .png, good lighting and angles. As I see it this one here is what you guys seem to fight over, and I have to say MSV's is clearly superior. Filesize really doesn't matter jack squat as long as the quality is better, which clearly is the case with the new image. Also, the old one is of smaller res, has film grain option and bad lighting in it.


 * A side note, we're using lots of MSV's enemy images in other ME pages, because he did provide superior versions of what we had.


 * Edit: I've switched the unused jpegs to pngs and updated the images on the corresponding pages. I think you'll find this solution suitable. --Kainzorus Prime Walkie-talkie  05:35, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Nothing i have uploaded has been acceptable? you are being a big jerk and i really had it with you --MSV Estevanico (talk) 10:17, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * MSV Estevanico, you'll want to be mindful how you address other editors. Insulting another editor is grounds for banning. If you'd like to continue this discussion in a calm and reasonable manner, go right ahead. If not, please refrain from commenting. SpartHawg948 (talk) 10:20, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * (please note that following my message, MSV Estevanico edited the comment, changing the second sentence to read " I Have had it with you being mean for no reason". Unfortunately, this seemed to cause technical difficulties, so I was forced to undo it.) SpartHawg948 (talk) 10:31, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Jeez, what's with the Lancer hostility. He never, ever said your images where crap, so don't put words in his mouth and don't go around insulting people for things they didn't do.--Legionwrex (talk) 06:16, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * "...nothing you have uploaded, or a small minority, have been acceptable." Lksdjf (talk)
 * I really don't see how in any way that Lancer is calling his images "crap" with that statement.--Legionwrex (talk) 15:22, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's passive-aggression if I ever saw it. Lksdjf (talk)
 * So what, that still gave him no right to insult Lancer.--Legionwrex (talk) 19:00, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * You've got a little something brown on your nose, Legion. I'd recommend we leave this conversation to the parties involved. --Mr. Mittens (talk) 19:29, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Right for defending someone, I'm a brown-noser. I will drop it when people start acting civil, and by your own logic, you should not comment here either, neither should have -S- or Lksdjf by your logic.--Legionwrex (talk) 19:48, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Please refrain from going off topic and keep to the issue. 01:33, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * "They are of lower quality. The smaller image size is a point of that. At this point, none of the images you have uploaded are good enough for articles, and they never have been" rubbish absolute rubbish, alot of the mass effect 1 enemy articles are using my images like this one They are high quality and i dont care about the file size
 * they are good enough, the ones that lancer has added are terrible quality and noisy--MSV Estevanico (talk) 03:35, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned on my talk page, the issue has already been resolved (when the new image is reinstated), hence I believe there is no further reason to pursue this complaint any more. 07:53, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Help?
For no apparent reason, I can't seem to add subject/headlines or edit reasons - the box is greyed out. This has happened on every page I've checked tonight, including this one. Do you have any idea what the problem is?--Zxjkl (talk) 08:26, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * When it comes to things like this, it is better to go ask the Wikia staff. We have no control over those things and it is more than likely a Wikia software issue. Lancer1289 (talk) 12:58, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

RE: email de-authentication issue
Hello! I have just spotted that you have been de-authenticated again on Sep 2. I just wanted to let you know that I am aware of that fact and will investigate the case soon. Michał Roszka (Mix) (talk) 08:53, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't even remember doing that. Funny how school makes you forget things. Thank you for investigating none the less. I hate this issue and it appears that I'm a unique case. For whatever reason. I only wish I could help in some way but I cannot think of one thing to offer. Lancer1289 (talk) 15:38, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello! I hope you are doing fine both at school and with the wiki. I have spent a while on investigating your issue and yes, indeed it has been a unique case.  I have improved my monitoring scripts and will be notified on the next occurrence and provided with more meaningful data.  So I am staying with you on this one. :-) Meanwhile, happy editing! Michał Roszka (Mix) (talk) 12:04, October 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * I hate when I'm a unique case. This always seems to happen to me. Just for once, can't it happen to someone else? Hopefully the issue will no longer present itself, knock on wood, cross your fingers, etc. If it does happen again, then maybe then the cause of the problem can be discovered. Lancer1289 (talk) 13:59, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

A flamewar in the making.
This blog has entered flamewar territory, and people are now starting to act rude, condescending, and all around hostile. Please take a look and see for yourself.--Legionwrex (talk) 16:28, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you are talking about. Clarification needed. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:20, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I was pretty clear, in Milkman's blog (which I already linked) people are starting to act rude and condescending, in other words, flamewaring, and it's getting out of control.--Legionwrex (talk) 17:45, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Apology
Dear Lancer1289, I apologize for unintentionally deleting your comments. I swear I did not even mean to do it. It was a complete accident. So, please, could you find it In your heart to forgive me? From, TW6464

Spam Filter.
I keep trying to post a blog but it keeps being blocked by wikis spam filter, why is this happening?--Legionwrex (talk) 23:21, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know. When it comes to anything that is dealing with the site itself, ask Wikia. We don't know why any of this stuff happens and we have no control over it. Lancer1289 (talk) 00:06, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * See, I have a problem here, it says to leave wiki a link to the problem, the only way I can do that is copy and paste, but then my rather long blog would be lost. DO you see my problem?--Legionwrex (talk) 00:12, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just copy paste it into word or something. When it comes to technical glitches like this, don't report them to admins, report them to Wikia since we have zero control over those things. 00:16, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I reported it, problem is the link won't work, as all it does is take you to the "create new blog post" page.--Legionwrex (talk) 01:17, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

My idea
Hey Lancer. I wonder why you don't like me making that ME RPG that i mentioned in a blog. I know that wiki's is about content first, i understand that, and that we should focus on improving said content not creating blogs left and right.

The problem i have with your reasoning here is that this wiki already have lots of people helping with the wiki and it's content and that the people who read blogs usually are just about a few diffrent people and not the entire wiki "population". So it's not like the entire wiki stop when someone write a blog. Also, the ME wiki is one of the wiki's with the least errors i ever seen compared to say, the Far Cry wiki wich i have spent some time on editing. So what's the problem? It's not like the wiki is suffering from major errors.

Comendor or Commendor or whatever seemingly don't have anything against people writing these kind of blogs so why do you have it?--Hello (talk) 21:00, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait, hold on here. I don't just go on blogs, as a mater of fact if you look at my contributions for the last week or so I mainly have main space edits.--Legionwrex (talk) 21:05, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah i know you just don't use blogs but you still use them alot. EDIT: removed the mentioning about diffrent users before i pi** more people off.--Hello (talk) 21:23, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, the last few weeks have shown that the wiki does in fact shut down when there are a number of active blogs. There have been days where there have been 150+ blog edits and only 10 odd mainspace edits. I'm not going to allow something that further distracts from content on the wiki, especially when we are plenty of things that already exist that distract from content. This wiki is about content first, not socializing or roleplaying. There are plenty of other sites that exist for that expressed purpose and this isn't one of them.
 * For example today, since 00:00 CST there have been 24 mainspace edits. I don't count one user trying to push their personal agenda against site policy as mainspace edits. There have been 4, now 5 talk page edits. 9 uploades and 4 file space edits. And one forum space edit That is a total of 43 edits. In the same time there has been 112 blog comments and 2 blog space edits. Hmm now that means that the mainspace edits account for 27.3% of the editing today. Even if you take those personal agenda edits in it is still 37.2%. That should not be the ratio. People on the wiki today spend more time socializing than editing and that is a problem because it shouldn't be that way. Content comes first, any socializing comes second. There is no room for interruption in that statement. Content first, socializing second. Or better yet, last.
 * And its Commdor. Really? It isn't that hard to check user names, it is in fact quite an easy process and not getting it right shows either laziness or an "I don't care" or "I don't want to be respectful" attitude. And I know that your statement is incorrect to a degree. Lancer1289 (talk) 21:38, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * To make you happy i decied to edit some minor things. And i did not bother to go figure out Commdor name becuse my internet like to shut down and reverse me back to an old page every now and then, so if i where to go and look out for how his name is spelled my internet might decied to be an a** and reverse me back here and undo everything. And that would be fan-f**king-tastic. I don't feel like getting banned, again, so i will not talk more about this. Or maybe i do. Becuse i feel like to. We'll see...--Hello (talk) 21:58, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ohh i did. I came here asking for a friendly answer and this is what i get?! Man, insulted by an admin--Hello (talk) 22:01, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

Well the reason that blog posts are so much more common is the way that they both appear on the wiki activity list and do not have to be bound by the constraints of truth. If the same number of blog posts happened to the main space, the time that would have to be taken to sieve through them to find which ones are worth keeping would be tremendous several people who add to blogs would be hard pressed to find a main page topic that they can meaningfully add to. Forum posts are not as common since you have to actively search for your topic to check for updates. I would wager that most of us are here to procrastinate, adding relevant material is not a popular method of procrastination as a talkative blog, similarly to the way that assorted gossip magazines are more popular than informative one. (ps Midnightpiranha (talk) 22:51, September 22, 2012 (UTC))
 * No offense, but what are you trying to tell with this?--Hello (talk) 22:44, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why it should not really be that much of a surprise that there are this many blog comments (and why you would not want this many main space edits) Midnightpiranha (talk) 22:51, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry
I apologize for accidentally deleting a large chunk of the Omega 4 Relay page - I was trying to revert the previous edit and didn't notice it had already been removed.--Zxjkl (talk) 03:22, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Chat Moderator vs Senior Editor.
So what is the difference between the two? Are they pretty much the same thing, or do you have to be one to be the other? If you are a chat moderator can you become a senior editor?--Legionwrex (talk) 14:04, September 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Chat moderators only have power over the Chat namespace. They are lower on the food chain than Senior Editors. So it will be Everyone, Chat Moderators, Senior Editors, Admins, B'Crats. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:24, September 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, can chat moderators still become senior editors? And how do they become chat moderators to begin with?--Legionwrex (talk) 17:30, September 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Chat moderators and senior editors are two separate positions. One must meet the qualifications for one. Being a chat moderator is not an instant qualification for a senior editor. If a moderator shows they can be a senior editor, then they will be nominated for the position. If you want to nominate yourself for a senior editor, then I can accept that and we could bring it up via email. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:34, September 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the offer, but I think it is better to allow the position of senior editor to be bestowed upon me by admins looking at my contributions, rather than trying to force it. --Legionwrex (talk) 17:43, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Apologies.
First, sorry for taking so long to post this, but a new episode of Survivor was on tonight.

I wanted to apologize for second guessing your ban. I should have looked into the mater more and realized I was wrong, but I'm human, and I make mistakes.

Best wishes,--Legionwrex (talk) 04:09, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks. I just wanted to share some troubleshooting info. I find this wiki very impressive otherwise! Piotrus (talk) 08:54, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:44, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Could be be the second editor of the two outside ones that have been asked for here? --Piotrus (talk) 19:04, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Images Need Deletion
Hey sorry, would you delete a couple of personal images for me? I'm at 11 personal uploads.


 * http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/File:Spartacus_Shepard.jpg
 * http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/File:Sparta_Shuttle.jpg

--The Milkman | I always deliver. 02:12, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Done. -- Commdor (Talk) 03:00, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you. --The Milkman | I always deliver. 03:04, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Jack
I have no intention of starting an edit war, but i frankly think that her student's reference to 'i will destroy you' has a place in the article. Open for discussion maybe?

BeoW0lfe (talk) 17:13, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * My last edit summary makes it quite clear where that belongs. It is not open for discussion. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:16, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Operation Concentrated Effort.
So I'm kind of confused as to when we are going to be starting this, as I see some users starting theirs already, but you prefer to wait until a set date. Would you mind telling me what said date is?

In completely unrelated maters, I look forward to joining you in Operation:Trailblazer, from the look of things it might just be us two.--Legionwrex (talk) 19:00, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thursday is the set launch date, and I really which people would wait until then to start changes. However, it seems that repeated requests to wait until then, sandbox ideas and what not, fall on deaf ears. Lancer1289 (talk) 19:12, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, not entirely. I'll follow your lead and wait for Thursday--Legionwrex (talk) 19:26, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * I apologize for getting impatient and editing articles without the project's formal start. I will wait for Thursday. I hope a set of guidelines will be in place for each project by then. SolitaryReaper (talk 20:49, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Deleting blogs
Two quick questions: one, Is it possible to delete blogs? Not just comments, I mean the ENTIRE blog. And two, if so, could you do this for me? TW6464 (talk) 13:46, October 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Nevermind, Commdor did it for me. TW6464 (talk) 14:01, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Operation Concentrated Effort
Operation Concentrated Effort is now on, and you have been chosen for the lead of Projects Trailblazer and Trainer, focusing on the Walkthroughs and Class Guides Respectively. The basic control page for the project can be found here and [[Mass Effect Wiki:Operation Concentrated Effort/Project Trainer|here]. You can update the project goals as necessary. Please remember that communication and cooperation is vital to the project. It seems that you will be working on the latter project alone, but you can recruit additional members as necessary.

Good luck. Lancer1289 (talk) 21:01, October 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * The fact I just did this, shows just how much on autopilot I was, and probably how tired I am. I need a nap. Lancer1289 (talk) 21:02, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

This Month's Featured Article
I have written a new featured article, which needs to be added to the Main Page. Arbington (talk) 18:31, October 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * Done. -- Commdor (Talk) 18:42, October 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry stepped out for lunch. Lancer1289 (talk) 19:07, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

Search and Rescue
Sorry for bringing this to your talk page, but you didn't respond earlier. I was thinking that adding war asset info into planet pages would complete the page. Consider, the mineral(light, heavy, rare metals, gases,etc) scans section is a unique feature of ME1, as is the planetary scan results for ME2. The war asset feature is for ME3. All this info compiled together would really make the page look good. After all, completeness is what we are aiming at here right? Please consider my proposal and provide reasons if you think otherwise.--Solitaryreaper (talk) 21:05, October 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because all of that information is extremely centralized, unlike the others. There is no reason to be more redundant in this case than it is already. Lancer1289 (talk) 21:08, October 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, fine. Guess I will have to undo every war asset edit I made. --Solitaryreaper (talk) 21:10, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

New Character Template.
I have finished the new character template for Project Chronicler, you can find it, along with the original, here. Basically I just updated the original so that it will include basic information and so that it will work with all characters.

If you have any objections or suggestions, please let me know and I will modify it.--Legionwrex (talk) 16:28, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Once you have it finalized, because of the large scale impact of this template, you need to get some feedback in the Projects forum. I would also look at other attempts to do this in the past and see what the major complains were, address them if possible, and don't forget opinions change. Lancer1289 (talk) 16:58, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, but do you yourself have any opinions on my version.--Legionwrex (talk) 17:04, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know what that last part is, but it needs to go since it makes no sense. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:08, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * What last part, the Citadel Tower thing? That is to show where the character is when you first meet them.--Legionwrex (talk) 17:13, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Which changes from game to game. That is just going to cause problems. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:20, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * But isn't it supposed to be written in a Pre-Mass Effect style? Their classes also change from game to game, but it stays turian agent.--Legionwrex (talk) 17:23, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * It was one of the sticking points last time. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:29, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * If it's a problem, I will remove it. When I do, would you support it in a vote?--Legionwrex (talk) 17:32, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * That shouldn't even be an issue for you right now. Presenting it should be. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:51, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

When I create the Project Forum, do I just copy and paste the new template, or give a link to my sandbox?--Legionwrex (talk) 17:54, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Your choice. Lancer1289 (talk) 17:56, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Well, thank you for all your help. I will probably wait a few hours before making the project forum, as my little Nephew is visiting.--Legionwrex (talk) 17:58, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Trivia edits
All right, so what exactly makes some subjective out-of-universe comparisons with no sources "carry more weight" than others? --Zxjkl (talk) 21:18, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * The merits of what they are comparing and what they are being compared to. Each trivia item is to be judged on a case by case basis. By your logic, a lot of trivia would have to go despite the fact that many of them have a lot of weight. Lancer1289 (talk) 21:22, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd rather purge a lot of trivia then maintain a double standard, honestly. But if that's how it works here, then can you explain exactly what "a lot of weight" is supposed to entail? My one edit that wasn't just reverted was the one to drell - what about that made it have less merit than the others?--Zxjkl (talk) 21:26, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Then it is clear that you do not understand, and won't if you keep that attitude of a mythical double standard. First it wasn't because I missed it. Second it was name trivia, and that isn't permitted. It actually isn't a double standard, which is what everyone says when they don't understand. Each trivia is to be judged on a case by case basis, not as a group. Trivia items are to be judged on their merits, what they are comparing, and what they are being compared to. If it is a common theme, then it isn't trivia, but if the comparison isn't common, or it is unique, then it is considered trivia. The trivia in the quarian article about the comparison to BSG is one of the most unique things I've seen in scifi and is therefore valid trivia given the comparisons listed there. None of the trivia you deemed "subjective", save one, didn't have the support needed. Lancer1289 (talk) 21:32, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * But who decides what's uncommon or unique? For instance, "hostile insect species" is a common trope in science fiction - while Starship Troopers may have popularized the idea, I don't see how its Arachnids are especially similar to the rachni compared to any other example of the theme.


 * Also, where is it stated that name trivia isn't permitted? That's one of the most common forms of trivia on here, especially on planet articles.--Zxjkl (talk) 21:46, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Name trivia is covered in the MoS in the trivia section. As to who decides, that should be common sense. Lancer1289 (talk) 21:49, October 7, 2012 (UTC)