Talk:Morality

--LordFransie 03:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC) I have heard of a glitch where when talking to the tauran who asks you to get his disk from his office, if you keep on using the charm response you can get +24 paragon repeatedly. meaning you can ask him to be a hero over and over.

For the infinite points trick, it would be good to know how much intimidate or charm skill you need to pull it off.

Shadowflay 15:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC) I'm fairly certain 75% in both paragon and renegade is achievable in one playthrough without exploitation, and I would like to add this or see it added to the opening section of this article if someone can confirm. I've come very close personally and had points left over.

I'm going through all the conversation options and trying to index what responses give you what amount of morality, and I'm constantly finding that every time an option gives me 8 Paragon, the corresponding Renegade option gives me 9 Renegade points. I'm wondering if this is how it's supposed to be, if there's a bug, or something I did to my character gives me extra Renegade points. My character is a Ruthless colonist female. I'm on the second playthrough with her, and on the first playthrough I maxed Renegade, and maxed intimidate. Currently her Charm level is at 6, and Intimidate is maxed. Anyone have any ideas? Could it be possible that maxing the corresponding skill gives you more morality points? NOTE: options that give 2 morality points don't give me any extra Renegade points, only options that give me 8 Paragon give me 9 Renegade. I haven't tried it with any options that give large amounts like 25 yet. --Stufff 08:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Having a Ruthless character gives you bonus Renegade points. Your psych profile and pre-service history affect how many Paragon/Renegade points you get, so it's different for everyone. (See the Commander Shepard main article.) That makes it hard to put a standard gain of Paragon/Renegade points on assignments. --Tullis 08:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Damn, I've been putting incorrect information up everywhere then. I guess I'll play through the game again as a character who only has a bonus to either Paragon or Renegade. If I do that, then the option I don't have a bonus for should be the base value before background affects it. Then once some base reward values are known we can determine exactly how much each background gives as a bonus.--Stufff 14:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Ending shot
I heard that the space station that appears over the planet differs from Paragon to Renegade, as well as the colour change. I have no idea what space station I saw, to be honest (Paragon/save the Council ending) but I've heard some people got the Citadel. Maybe it's Paragon/Renegade *and* the choices made at the ending that affect it. --Tullis 07:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure on this, but my money says its Arcturus station. 75.2.41.164 05:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC)Slothen
 * Arcturus is supposed to be a Stanford Torus, shaped like the Presidium. Maybe it's Jump Zero, but then it wouldn't be in orbit over a planet. --Tullis 15:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I vote it's some kind of new human ship --Jono 01:42, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the station in the Paragon ending may actually be the Minuteman station from Mass Effect 2 --71.49.247.254 05:55, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Morality Scales?
The scales on the character sheet have 4 bars, implying that they correspond to 20%, 40%, 60%, and 80%. I know that the morality achievements say 75%, but has anyone actually checked if you get your last bonus persuasion point at 75, or do you get it at the final bar, which would mean 80% ? 75.2.41.164 05:42, 23 November 2008 (UTC)Slothen

Morality Innacuracies
Having finished my most recent playthrough of the game, the first free point for Charm/Intimidate came at 10% of the paragon/renegade scale. You start with 3 empty ranks for both Charm and Intimidate. The first point you get from either reaching 10% or becoming a spectre unlocks 3 more empty ranks. The second, third, and fourth points unlocked will each give 2 more rank openings. I'd like someone to verify for me before I edit the page on morality.

Confirmed, the first rank/free point opens at 10%, see my morality guide edit on totals needed

--Sonevar

A Question about Shepard's facial scars.
It's mentioned that the more Renegade points you have, the more deformed Shepard becomes. I'm curious however... Does this mean if I maxed out my renegade points on my initial Mass Effect run through, he'll come out looking like "Dark Shepard" right off the bat once you start up Mass Effect 2? Or does it only count if you build up renegade points during ME2? AngelOfIron 04:19, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a fairly slow evolution of facial scars being added/removed by renegade/paragon, and if you start off at a full bar of renegade from ME, you'll end up with roughly 20% or so I think of renegade in ME2 (that's if you don't have max Paragon too, because it seems to see you as paragon if you maxed both), at about 20% renegade you don't see a huge difference yet on the scars, at least I'm not seeing it yet on my renegade run, my paragon run who did 100% paragon 40% renegade took me until about 85% Paragon to really see no scars at all, likely because of the amount of renegade I had with it, so they semi-balance each other. This run through I'm maxing renegade, then maxing Paragon, to see how full Paragon/Renegade at 100% actually looks. But yeah, full answer to your question is no, you won't be fully "Dark Shepard" as you put it, right off the bat. Jaline 04:28, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Alright, that answered my question. Thank you very much Jaline. AngelOfIron 05:37, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Another question on the facial scarring - am I correct in assuming that if you use the med bay upgrade to heal your scars, your eyes will not turn red while following the renegade path? Ev0lve 23:41, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct.Tanooki1432 22:53, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

A question just because I'm curious: Does the picture in this article show the worst that the facial scarring gets? I'm still working on a Renegade Shepard in ME2 (a couple actually, haha), but I haven't noticed anything change in a while and that picture doesn't look too different from what I have on my character currently. Again, I'm still working on it myself, but I was just curious. --Mymindislost 21:00, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup, I think that what's pictured in the article is the fullest extent of the renegade scarring. -- Dammej ( talk ) 21:07, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Awww. I was hoping it would get CRAZY weird looking, but oh well. Thanks! --Mymindislost 21:13, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

Paragon/Renegade points completely independent?
I'm wondering if choosing a Renegade option dose anything to the number of Paragon points I have, or to my ability to earn them. For example, sometime, in the conversation wheel, there is no Paragon (northeast) option, just the neutral (east) and Renegade (southeast)option. In such situations, where there was no way to earn Paragon points anyway, do I hurt myself by choosing the Renegade option? Servius 07:52, February 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * There are a few conversations where using a renegade dialogue choice will prevent a paragon choice from appearing later in the conversation. Other than that, though, no - gaining renegade points does not remove or otherwise influence paragon points, and vice versa. Ev0lve 23:41, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Total Points
Anyone have any idea how many points it takes to max out the bars? In ME1 I never really counted, and in ME2 it's sort of skewed as putting squad points in your "class skill" (Assault Mastery for Vanguards, Combat Mastery for Soldiers etc.) increases the amount of bar filled.Tanooki1432 22:57, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * ME1 i keep hearing 330 points. (so achievement is about 250, and assignment about 265). all things considered, it sounds right anyways; it would take about 12 of the 9-point renegade options, and maybe 14 of the 8-point paragon options to hit those marks. (minus the umpty-hundred 1 and 2-point rewards, too.)

Opinions on Morality
I tend to largely go on the Paragon side of morality, except when my meter is completely filled or a renegade interrupt comes up. I'm not alone in this, but I think its because people are uncertain of of the outcomes, so which is why they would choose the good side first. The 2nd time, I'd go Renegade and the 3rd time, a balance of both. Once again I think this is what others usually would do as well when playing these types of games. H-Man Havoc 01:47, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Should it really be compared to "Good" and "Bad"?
The morality article compares the morality scale in Mass Effect to scales in other games, like Knights of the Old Republic, and implys that in Mass Effect, you choose between good and bad. I for one do not see the morality scale as good or bad at all. The word "Paragon" is used to descibe someone that is a "model of excelence", someone who does everything in the ideal manner. In the game this is reflected by actions that save as many people as possible, give people a second chance, or involve compromise. The word "Renegade" is another word for outlaw. Shepard's renegade actions could be compared to a "loose-cannon cop" from hollywood; a vigilante who gets the job done at any cost with no concern for colateral damage. Even so, Shepard is still risking his life to save the galaxy, his actions are not "bad", they are just rough and callous. Calling it a "Morality scale" supports that they are two different methods for saving the Galaxy, as "Morality" is how someone decides between good and bad. Having looser definition of what is bad and what is just acceptable means to save the galaxy doesnt make Shepard "bad", as everyone has a differing opinion of morality.

Well you can look at it like, " Will Shepard save the galaxy at the cost of universal life, or save the galaxy at the cost of his own safety and well being." That would be the Bad way and the Good way( in the order of seeing it). Shepard would be this sorta bad hero but good villian, or a good hero but bad villian. Do you see what I'm saying?MEffect Fan 05:54, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

It seems to be though that the difference in the two paths is one of opinion, not of good and bad. If shepard were to have the interests of cerberus and humanity as his main goal, as a character, he would still think he was doing the "good" thing. And in a situation where every living thing in the galaxy could die, shepard could very easily believe that the ends justify the means for some of the more extreme renegade actions. "Morality" as i have said, is a measure of what a person considers to be good and bad. Just because you might not agree with the renegade version of morality doesnt mean its "Bad". If Shepard were going to be bad, he would pursue the situation in a way that best serves him/her, such as doing whatever grants Shepard the most power. But the ultimate goal is a very selfless attempt to save all life. Good, by anyones standard


 * I always kinda saw them more like the Lawful/Chaotic axis than the Good/Evil axis of the D&D way. A Lawful Good Paladin would never sacrifice the lives of the Council, but a Chaotic Good Rogue might. The game is constructed in such a way that you can't really be "evil", you just go about doing things in a more violent, destructive, callous way. (although, who knows, in NWN2 you could backstab your entire group at the end and kill them all in the name of the King of Shadows if you were "Evil", so maybe at ME3 you'll be given the option to sell the Galaxy out to the Reapers... Who knows...) Tanooki1432 16:13, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Special options
What influences special paragon/renegade options availability? Why different players need different amounts of paragon/renegade points to unlock one and the same dialogue option?Sashafan2 17:31, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * In ME2 the game checks for how many paragon/renegade points you have compared to the total possible amount you can get when you start a discussion. If you paragon/renegade points are at a certain amount, it lets you choose the paragon/renegade option. Events such as the Miranda/Jack catfight are harder to paragon/renegade resolve the later you do them in the game because there's a greater amount of potential points the more you hold it off. Darkman 4 17:58, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand the concept, but I didn't understand your explanation of it Darkman. No offense to you of course. Can you maybe simplify the answer, just to cater to my stupidity? Maybe draw a picture? OOOOOH! I like pictures. ;)--Effectofthemassvariety 18:09, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Simply put, each submission/dialog/etc has number of points X. Out of these, you get anywhere from 0 to X, depending on choices. So overall, there's a percentage of Renegade and Paragon, that you don't see. Actions have a minimal percentage. For example, you need 90% evelness to choose Morinth, not 90% Renegade. If you are at the beginning, then 90% means that out of 50 points you need 45, which are easy to rake in. As the game progresses, you start missing points because you missted interrupts, chose bad dialog options, etc. As a result, you have 80% of maximum available and the option is gray. Because of this, there are people who get Morinth with only half of max Renegade, because they are half way through. Other people have 80% Renegade, but because they are at their last mission, it's under the required 90% and it's gray.
 * Once you get the bar filled, however, you're at 100% and you can start filling the other bar. I don't know if you can fill both, but I filled Renegade with a few missions to do (importing a ME1 full-both character). Renegade was filled with all recruitments done, no side missions, not all dialogs on Normandy and still Samara, Thane, Miranda and maybe more still having their loyalty missions open. Not at IFF yet. Paragon is over 40%.-- IMNdi 00:40, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Simply put, each submission/dialog/etc has number of points X. Out of these, you get anywhere from 0 to X, depending on choices. So overall, there's a percentage of Renegade and Paragon, that you don't see. Actions have a minimal percentage. For example, you need 90% evelness to choose Morinth, not 90% Renegade. If you are at the beginning, then 90% means that out of 50 points you need 45, which are easy to rake in. As the game progresses, you start missing points because you missted interrupts, chose bad dialog options, etc. As a result, you have 80% of maximum available and the option is gray. Because of this, there are people who get Morinth with only half of max Renegade, because they are half way through. Other people have 80% Renegade, but because they are at their last mission, it's under the required 90% and it's gray.
 * Once you get the bar filled, however, you're at 100% and you can start filling the other bar. I don't know if you can fill both, but I filled Renegade with a few missions to do (importing a ME1 full-both character). Renegade was filled with all recruitments done, no side missions, not all dialogs on Normandy and still Samara, Thane, Miranda and maybe more still having their loyalty missions open. Not at IFF yet. Paragon is over 40%.-- IMNdi 00:40, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

What ending do you get if your Paragon and Renegade scores are equal?
Just wondering. TheUnknown285 20:04, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it depends more on options taken in dialogue wheels... In ME1, if you choose the "Let the Council die." option, you get the more renegade-y ending of the all-human council. If you choose "Focus on Sovereign" you get the more paragon-y ending of the human-led council. If you choose to save the council, my guess is it would depend on whichever score is higher, even if it's by a few points, as it's probably almost impossible (barring infinite point bugs) to get them exactly equal. In ME2, the ending depends on either saving or blowing up the Collector Base. My guess is even if you've been the most renegade person, if you choose to blow up the base, you'd still get the "paragon" ending with the blue star behind the Illusive Man. Although that's just a guess. Tanooki1432 16:05, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

ME2 Class Options
In ME2 you can evolve your "class" skill (Operative for Infiltrator, Defender for Sentinel etc.) to include either 70% morality points or 100%. Is this a multiplier or a cap? Example: If I take, say, Assassin as an Infiltrator, (70% Paragon/Renegade Points) over Agent (100% Paragon/Renegade Points) does that mean I can only get 70% of the maximum points or that it'll just take a little longer to max them out? Tanooki1432 16:05, June 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a multiplier. If you take the 70-percent path, then your paragon and renegade scores are (base * 1.7). If you take the 100-percent path, then the scores are (base * 2). Either way, it's not a cap, and you can continue to earn paragon and/or renegade points. PhoenixBlue 19:08, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Doing Both
In ME1, is it possible to unlock both the Paragon mission (saving the hostage scientists) and the Renegade mission (negotiating with lord whatshisname)? I havent been able to reach both 75% percent on both scales without the help of the endgame morality choices, at which point it's too late anyway. 71.20.43.135 07:06, July 18, 2010 (UTC)</
 * There is, but it is extremely difficult to do without using one of the infinite points glitches. Lancer1289 07:14, July 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't been able to do so on my numerous playthroughs but its supposedly possible with strategic dialogue (typically picking the option that gives the most points, and when even pick the bar that you are lacking in the most) all while taking into account the freebies such as the relatively large amount of free paragon and renegade points in Virmire Ilovetelephones 08:43, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

Pre-Service History
Does anyone know if the morality bonuses still apply in ME2?Kalaong 09:24, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * If they do, then it's not visible in the values and is multiplied like the class skill bonus. Tanooki1432 12:22, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Math Mess during Import
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/perji_photo/th_ScreenShot00029.png

This is my vanguard Shepard, picture taken on the Citadel Exterior, at the hatch that leads to the Council Chamber. After this picture there were only two more morality changes: the first was convincing Saren (I believe I used the Intimidate option here, not sure though), the second was the Council's Fate (definitely got Paragon points on this one). The final picture was Shepard on a red background. Now the problem is that when importing this Shepard into ME2, for some reason it says Shepard has had a Paragon life, which means Shepard had more Paragon than Renegade points. Anyone got any ideas where it all went wrong? Perj 06:20, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * For the purposes of importing, it's the fate of the council that determines whether you took the "Paragon" or "Renegade" path. Everything else is incidental. Since you saved them, you are deemed a paragon. I believe that you'll still acquire more renegade points than paragon points upon import. -- Dammej ( talk ) 06:24, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I got 190 Paragon and 190 Renegade when waking up on the Lazarus Station, right before taking the pistol from the locker. Perj 10:02, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The amount of paragon/renegade points carried over to ME2 is capped at 190, and only requires 50% of the bar to be full (in ME) for the whole 190 to be carried over. Since you clearly had over 50% Paragon/Renegade in ME, you received 190 in ME2 for both. As Dammej said, the ending decision is what decides your Shepard's 'morality' in ME2 (the Council surviving/dying choice is seen as pivotal, for some reason). Hope that helps. Bronzey 10:43, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also note that only the decisions you made affect the game, not the 'Paragon' or 'Renegade' rating you got when you imported, so this won't have any effect on the game.JakePT 11:39, September 20, 2010 (UTC)