Talk:Mass Effect 2 Guide/Archive1

Armor1. Armorugh the Omega 4,Keeping everyone alive
Can somebody verify the conditions for losing squadmates on the Suicide Mission? After playing this mission once, it seems to me that all loyal squadmates lives and everybody else dies (e.g. non-loyal Legion and Assassin are killed before landing at the Collector base). 95.144.16.131 11:53, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's much more too it to that. It depends on who you select to do the different roles, and it appears that how long you take to do the final battle affects who dies as well. For example, I choose the "We'd better hurry." option and I guess I took too long, because Mordin died holding the line. He was alive before I left, so the only explanation is that he died while I was fighting the Reaper. However, this is only an assumption, and I too would like to see someone explain the conditions on how people will live or die.

The exact condition for the abduction of the Normandy crew would be interesting for those who don't want to lose squadmates or Normandy crew. 95.144.16.131 11:53, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * All I can say on that at this moment (having only completed one playthrough thus far) is that it is possible to lose loyal squadmates. I had all my squad members loyal, but Zaeed was killed. When it came time to divide the people up again (the second time, I think, when you needed to pick one biotic to do the shield, one squadmember to lead the diversion team through the halls of the ship, and one to lead the survivors back to the Normandy) I picked Zaeed to lead the diversion group, and when I got to the door to let him in after crossing the room under the biotic shield, he was killed. SpartHawg948 11:57, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * This will happen with anyone that is not consider leader status, AKA only Miranda/Jacob/Garrus will live by leading the Fire Team. Lotier 04:11, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it requires more than loyalty. Zaeed may not be tagged as a good character to lead a squad (which is surprising, given his experience as a merc). A loyal Garrus will die if you send him into the vents, and a loyal Jacob will cause a death if you have him create the biotic barrier. Also, I think the guide should include information on saving Kelly Chambers. I'm not 100% sure about the conditions necessary. I know from my two playthroughs that: If you don't chat up Kelly, and you don't go into the relay immediately after the attack, she dies. If you do chat up Kelly, and you do go into the relay immediately after the attack, she survives. I'm pretty sure chatting up Kelly doesn't make a difference, and all that matters is that you stage the rescue ASAP, but can someone confirm? -Ocdscale 16:32, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I can confirm. I was downright rude to Kelly throughout, and still saved her and the rest of the crew. Also, regarding Zaeed's unsuitability for team leadership, I heard it best explained on another site by someone who pointed out that when he was the commander of the Blue Suns, he was held down and shot in the head by his men. Not a born leader, exactly. --Danse CC 17:32, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I also found in my game that a loyal Thane will also die if you send him into the vents. I'm really not sure how to prevent this. A loyal Zaeed will die if you tell him to lead the second group while you're under the biotic bubble. A loyal Jack will make it through the seeker swarm cave but I noticed that she was struggling by the end so I think you can't stay still at the breaks too long. I had dinner with Kelly and immediately went through the gate and she survived. A loyal Grunt will survive and arrive at the Normandy with no casualties if you send him back with the Normandy crew. Shepard also survived. Steviesteveo 22:49, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

I had chatted up Kelly enough to have the option to ask her to dinner (though I didn't) and did a bit of exploration before I did the final jump into the relay. I ended up saving her. I had Legion and Tali in my party at the time. KefkaticFanatic 17:42, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Saving Kelly involves going through the Omega 4 Mass Relay Immediately after your crew is abducted. If you do side missions after they get taken, at least half the crew, including Kelly, will die. Elamdri 07:14, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I have to refute the theory that you have to go into the Omega 4 Relay right after the abduction in order to save the crew. In my playthrough, I took the time to visit all the major shopping areas (Ilium, The Citadel and Omega station), in order to get all the upgrades I had not yet purchased and could afford, and I still was able to rescue the whole crew... Maybe, it is only "Missions" you cannot engage before going into the Relay (I do not think "Assignments" would be a problem as most only involve traveling and interacting with NPC, which is very similar to the shopping activity I had, but as I have not tried either, I cannot be sure). Could someone having finished an assignment after the abduction and before going into the Relay confirm? Celorilm 09:34, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I can confirm this, or at least I have evidence that suggests it is true. After the ambush I returned to Illium because I had not completed Liara's second assignment. I did so, and still rescued the entire crew upon assaulting the Collector base in the suicide mission. --Danse CC 17:05, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Someone put that having Legion escort the survivors causes them to die, but it didn't for me (they were Loyal). So who knows, man. I know that leading the fire teams seems to be awfully goddamned dangerous. 24.5.77.34 01:51, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I've been looking through things trying to figure it out, I messed up and deleted my save right before the Omega jump, but here is what I've put together so far. Mordin will die if left in Session 3. I believe it set up based on have enough leaders at the door. If you have 2 of the 3 leaders (Garrus/Miranda/Jacob) in your final group Mordin(/someone else?) will die. Any member will die if not loyal. Lotier 04:33, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

No, I left all my leaders at the door and Mordin and my whole team was loyal..
 * Examine the table and conditions at this link. Also, possible spoilers. http://www.giantbomb.com/mass-effect-2/61-21590/how-to-survive-the-suicide-mission-no-plot-spoilers/35-385092/ --Balsa 04:57, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Good link. Useful data. Still need more data.
 * All links are pointing to the crew member not needing to be loyal in order to survive the suicide mission, but using them in any key position will get someone killed. Still can't figure out why Mordin will sometimes die in the "defend the door" position. I thought it had to do with keeping leader teammates in the position, but that didn't work (Garrus/Miranda final team, Mordin on escort, killed no one; while Garrus/Miranda final team, Grunt escort, kills Mordin)
 * Saving all squadmates and crew members seems like it would be the ultimate choice. And I think it's possible. Complete all missions/assignments up till getting the Reaper IFF. Going straight to the Collector's ship after completing the Reaper IFF, using S1:Tali/(Garrus/Miranda/Jacob) S2:Samara/Jack(with L5 upgrade???)/(Garrus/Miranda/Jacob)/Any Loyal S3:If Mordin still around, must be on final squad team, otherwise any squad combination will work.Lotier 09:10, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Section 2 - Crew Survivors Escort
(Legion will die if sent with the survivors, so will zaeed.) (I sent Legion and he lived, so someone may want to check this)(This editior choose Legion to escort all three times he replayed this mission, and each time all the crew survived.) (I'm almost certain that a non-loyal team member will die if sent back as the escort.)


 * I cannot tell for Legion, I have not tried, but Zaeed can successfully perform the escort. I sent him in my playthrough and everybody survived. Was Zaeed loyal when you sent him (mine was)? Celorilm 09:41, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Modified the header of this section to better reflect the content. Also, I've sent (loyal) Jacob as escort, twice, and the group survived both times. Both times Jack was the only unloyal team member. Has anyone had a loyal team member cause deaths as an escort? If so, did the said member miss an upgrade (e.g. Grunt's shotgun, Mordin's omni-tool etc.)? Kitsunebi 09:10, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * +1 for loyal Zaeed. He sucessfully escorted survivors

The main page suggests Mordin as the best choice, because it helps protect him from being killed. This isn't quite true. The Hold The Line section determines, based on total defense, if someone is slated to die. If so, they take the next guy on the list. Mordin happens to be first on the list, so he's most often the one killed. But if he's not present, the next in line will be killed. Unless there is evidence that Mordin supplies the least amount of defense to the HTL section, I think this should be changed. --JeremyWinston 03:42, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Imported Talk
From Collector Base: Long Walk - Biotic Specialist Unconfirmed- if you take Legion with you - most likely he will die and the other teammate lives. Checked - Legion+Samara=Legion dies. Legion+Grunt=Legion Dies. Also, Jack most likely die in that section, if Miranda is holding the shield.) (Addenddum: Legion doesn't necessarily die should you choose him for your squad. Samara as biotic, with Legion+Tali was successful with no casualties. AbstractBlueSky 00:47, February 3, 2010 (UTC))

From Collector Base: Long Walk - Escort [Mordin is recommended since he is likely to die on other tasks. Addenddum: Not necessarily, Mordin can survive the hold the line segment. Triggers of crew member survival are, of this moment, unknown. Assuming crew members' conversation trees are completed as trigger.].

From Final Battle Changes: (Unconfirmed) It appears as if the amount of assault-rifle using classes you leave behind to defend the door impacts if someone will die while you're fighting the Reaper. For example, if you take Garrus with you and send Zaeed back with the survivors, you will only have two assault-rifle using classes (Grunt and Legion) and someone will die. However, if you send a non-AR class back, such as Jacob, and still select an AR-class such as Legion to be with you, you'll now have three AR-classes (Grunt, Garrus, and Zaeed) and everyone should live. This is not confirmed and needs to be tested. [NOTE: The above theory is not correct. I had everyone but Zaeed loyal, had Tali and Grunt in my 'final battle' party, and had sent Legion to escort the survivors back to the ship, leaving Zaeed and Garrus with ARs guarding the door. I suffered no team losses at all in the final battle. 209.195.164.34 19:40, February 2, 2010 (UTC)] Confirmed incorrect. Squad deaths are based on another variable. Sent Zaeed as escort and took Legion into final battle. AbstractBlueSky 01:05, February 3, 2010 (UTC) (Unconfirmed) If Mordin is in the team that holds the line - everebody will get to the Normandy, except for him. He dies, even if he is loyal. I check it twice with loyal\not loyal character - same thing. It is better to have him in your team for final battle, or to sent him with the survivors early in the mission. To stay alive - he should be loyal. Confirmed incorrect. Mordin is fully capable of surviving the hold the line battle at the end. Squad member death is based on another variable. AbstractBlueSky 01:06, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Mordin survival Squad member death at Section 3 "Defending the door" is affected by the presence of Fire Team Leaders. Mordin is likely to die if only two of the three (Garrus, Miranda, Jacob) are present. The rest of the crew is capable of escaping even with one Leader with them-Complementing what Lotier added previously Lan EX 12:49, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not correct. I completed an ending where I took Miranda with me on the final battle and had Jacob escort the survivors back, so only one leader (Garrus) was left to hold the door and Mordin lived. Also, I read an account of another user who said he had all three leaders left at the door (and were all loyal), and Mordin died. Must be based on something else. Slinky317 18:32, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Requests
From Collectors: Long Walk Look at chart above, it is quite accurate. Lan EX 12:51, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Whether certain squad combinations result in the death of a squad member.
 * Whether particular choices for biotic specialist results in the death of a squad member.

From Final Battle: Part 3

'''what causes one of your squadmates to die after the battle with the human-reaper? (crushed by debris)'''

Postulation: Possibly the lack of loyalty from said character.

Survival of hold-the-door team
Jack was the only disloyal team member for me, and she was the only one who died during suicide mission (she died holding the door). I sent Jacob back with survivors so he was absent, had Grunt and someone else in my final team (both survived from under rock). I assumed the hold-the-door and falling-debris together were a form of 'loyalty test' (e.g. kill out anyone disloyal), but there have been contradicting reports indicating that everyone can survive even if someone is not loyal. Query: has anyone managed to save EVERYONE while having at least one disloyal team member, and WITHOUT having Zaeed in the team? Kitsunebi 08:52, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes the chart above has not been proved inaccurate, you can have party members die if they are loyal and party members live if they are not loyal. Notable you can not use them for anything else they will die. EG sending them as an escort will get them (s/he and the crew) killed, using them as Specialist or Leaders will cause a death. Using them in the final battle as your team will get them killed to. (Oddly enough using them in the other two parts won't however.)Lotier 09:43, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * It was sort of inaccurate for me - no one died on those particular parts, but Jack died in the end. Jack was the only unloyal group memeber, I didn't use her for anything, yet she died holding the door. Pipe crawler was Tali, first fire leader Garrus (all survived), escort Jacob (survived), barrier holder Samara, second fire team Miranda (all survived), final team was Grunt (survived) and someone else (survived) - might have been Legion, regardless Jack was not in the team but was left with others to hold the door - and she was the only person during the whole Omega mission who died (in the final cutscene she was left dead on the field). There has been a lot of debate specifically about deaths while holding the door. My own guess would be it has to do with the collective 'power' of the whole team. How much you upgraded weapons and armor, how many prototype upgrades you made, how many team members are loyal (and how many may have died on previous parts of mission). I assume if you have enough 'total power', everyone survives, if not then someone will die - probably starting from disloyal members, and if all are loyal then from generally weakest - Mordin might be considered the weakest of lot, which would explain why people usually have trouble with him dying (and thus also sending him as an escort might increase the leftover strength at the door). This is all speculation of course. But fact is that Jack died holding the door, while following the generally accepted 'correct' assignments. Kitsunebi 02:37, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a first for me, I've never heard of anyone but Mordin dying holding the door and I've played/researched the end a lot to try and figure out what causes he's death there. Right now the Hold-the-door team is variable, but the other parts are not, it's very stable of what causes what in the area. But in request to the question it is quite possible still to have people live if not loyal, look at the link above (below the chart) and it shows a lot of the combo's that do work.Lotier 08:27, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * However those combos didn't specify NOT having Zaeed in the team (whom would essentially provide one extra pair of hands for the holdout team). Yes, the rest of the mission seems to be pretty much figured out, but that one part bugs me - in particular because it kept me from getting the achievement. I'm doing a second playthrough and will try to make it a test-bench to try out different variations, but it'll be a while before I get to that point. Oh, on a sidenote - Jack was unloyal, but I'd actually made her loyalty mission. I just took Miranda's side in their argument, didn't have enough paragon/renegade points to patch things up nice and cozy. Kitsunebi 08:41, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh it bugs me to no end too. I have a medium length list (and more still to come) going on right now of what works and doesn't work. As far as I can see it for sure is not random but it does follow some set of rules, and very few combinations result in a death of a hold the line team member, some people claim its the speech but that seems to have no effect either.Lotier 08:47, February 6, 2010 (UTC) edit. It looks like its just not starting to pop up that non-loyal squad members die holding the door, but its not a defined as I would like it to be. grrr.Lotier 08:51, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I've heard non-loyal team members can survive through mission, and I also know they can die at the door. It doesn't appear to be a direct result from assigning the critical positions, so it would follow the defining factor is something else. Conversation during mission doesn't seem likely cause. What I'm planning on testing is, running the game through and collecting all research upgrades but without making any of them except for the ship upgrades (which are necessary for survival), and doing every loyalty mission except for Legion and possibly some other. Then running the Omega mission right away when it comes available, and seeing if everyone survives - or wether someone dies at the door. If someone dies, then take earlier save and see if compliting research upgrades and/or Legion loyalty mission changes things - or if I can figure some other way to see the logic of it. Kitsunebi 10:24, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I managed to get through the final mission with no-one dying, with three members (Tali, Jack, and Zaeed) not loyal. I put all three of them in the hold the door team along with five loyal members (Grunt, Garrus, Legion, Jacob & Samara). As for the rest, Miranda and Thane came with me, and Mordin was sent back with the crew (actually just the doctor). (This full run was on Insanity difficulty).


 * Also on a different run through, when I was trying to get everyone killed, in the first section I assigned an unloyal Samara to fireteam leader, and an unloyal Mordin to the vents, and surprisingly no-one died!!! I assume this is due to the game ensuring you have enough team members left for the ending. After this I lost two more members (one while sending the crew back and one to the bug swarm) so that I was only left with three members for the end (two to come with me and one to hold the door). I imagine this is probably the minimum you are allowed at the end point (although I don't know if someone other than an unloyal Zaeed might have died in the position of fireteam leader in the second section leaving no-one to hold the door). All three members (and Shepard) died at the ending. (This full run was on Hardcore difficulty). Nialia 11:02, February 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Some info on various runs where I left different people at the door:
 * Unloyal Miranda + Unloyal Zaeed = both live (casual difficulty)


 * Unloyal Samara + Unloyal Zaeed = both live (casual difficulty)


 * Unloyal Jacob + Unloyal Zaeed = both live (casual difficulty)


 * Unloyal Zaeed by himself = dies (hardcode difficulty)


 * Unloyal Tali + Unloyal Zaeed = both die (insanity difficulty)


 * Unloyal Samara + Unloyal Garrus + Unloyal Zaeed = all live (casual difficulty)


 * Unloyal Samara + Unloyal Tali + Unloyal Zaeed = Tali dies (casual difficulty)


 * Unloyal Tali + Unloyal Jack + Unloyal Zaeed + Loyal Grunt + Loyal Garrus + Loyal Legion + Loyal Jacob + Loyal Samara = all live (insanity difficulty) Nialia 02:13, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Abduction
If you have unexplored systems and open assignments at the time of the crew abduction, can you do them after the main story line (e.g don't want to loose anybody so head to Omega 4 instantly) or these should be done before the IFF mission? Kd82 10:29, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Assuming you survive the main storyline, you can complete any missions you have left (assuming any related squadmates also survived). Shihchiun 14:51, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * For Further Clarification... after the main story, it doesn't immediately go to credits and endgame like it did in ME1, it, like the game 'freelancer', after the campaign ends, it becomes an open universe-ish game to finish the sidelines? I think I did see something talked about to this... ahem... effect, but only talk, nothing I can 'source'. [minor edit: forgot to sign my comment] --AlexMcpherson 01:38, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I can confirm from experience that, after the Credits screen (which you can even skip), you are given the option to either end the game or return to the Normandy to finish any business you might have set aside, provided that no related squadmate was killed (everybody survived in my case) . One thing I cannot confirm is whether any leftout loyalty mission can successfully be performed afterwards or not, as I had completed all before entering the Omega-4 Relay...


 * Maybe should you consider posting such questions in the Forum section or your Talk page, as they are not really relevant to the purpose of this Talk page, which is (anyone, correct me if I am wrong) dicussing, before implementation, sensitive content changes for the Mass Effect 2 Guide page. Celorilm 14:52, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Legion loyal + Kelly survives possible?
I'm wondering at the moment, is it possible to do Legion's loyalty mission and still be able to rescue Kelly?TUNG84 10:59, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes it is possible, there is some limit of missions that can be done after the crew was "collected" and still be allowed to save them. One post I read listed it as one crew member dies for every mission done after the "collection".Lotier 11:15, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I did Legion's loyalty mission and saved Kelly, so it's definitely possible. --Imperialles 11:46, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is definitely possible. At least the way I did: I activated Legion alsmost immediately after recovering it from the derelict Reaper and, talking to it, managed to trigger its loyalty mission before the IFF was completely installed and therefore my crew abducted. So when the abduction occured. I have not tested doing the mission after the abduction occured though. Celorilm 14:33, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Seconding this method, I had got all non-Legion crew and did their loyalty missions before doing the derelict Reaper mission. Then I activated Legion and got its loyalty mission almost right away. Downside of course is none of Leigon's unique mission dialogs that way, but I ended up saving the crew. --Xmas214 04:01, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

February 12, 2010

There is definitely away to save everyone with unloyal people. Both Legion and Jack where unloyal and I still got the no left behind(THE ENTIRE NORMANDY CREW AS WELL). I sent Tali through the pipes, Garrus led the 1st team, Jacob led the second team, I sent Tali back with the crew, and I left everyone at the door except for Samara and Dr.Solaris. I think Grunt is the Key but the fail safe is to do it exactly like this and it's 100% fail proof.

I've played through the game six times and each time I did Legion's loyality mission prior to the Suicide Mission and everyone survived. Tonight, (7th playthrough) Kelly and other crew members died. I don't remember the order of activating/talking to Legion to get his loyality mission/abduciton on my previous playthroughs, but on my latest playthrough I did the IFF mission, got the the crew abducted, activated Legion and then did his loyality mission. I think I just ran in to a bug, but I'd be interested to know if anybody else has experienced this.Sdpens 05:40, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I must concur, it's definitely possible to have Legion loyal and have all the Normandy's crew survive. I heard "bad things happen" if you do too many missions after the Reaper IFF, so I made sure I had all squad members recruited and loyal before doing that mission. Then the first thing I did after the IFF retrieval was Legion's loyalty mission, so it got done before the crew was abducted. After the crew was abducted I went straight through the Omega-4 relay, and all of the abducted crew were still alive when I got to them. Tophvision 04:09, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

If you tell Joker you will head right to the Omega 4 relay, you can still do the mission and save Kelly and the Normandy. Or you could activate Legion immediatly after obtaining the IFF and do his mission. Its really all about timing. MEffect Fan 06:08, June 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that makes sense. I'll have to load some of the saved games from my previous playthroughs and figure out the order. Does the opportunity to tell Joker to head to the Omega 4 relay happen during the cutscene after getting the IFF? I usually skip the dialog, but I seem to remember that it's about keeping/selling/spacing Legion.
 * To get Legion's loyalty and keep the whole crew alive, I have discovered over the course of 20 playthroughs, the way, so I'll share. To get thte desired result, as soon as the Reaper IFF mission is over, before even accessing the Galaxy Map, actually don't access it, activate Legion and keep talking to him until you run out of conversation options. Then go to the CIC and talk to Kelly, who will usually say that Legion wants to talk, so go back and talk to Legion to get its loyalty quest. Then complete the mission and the Normany will usually be attacked. Now all you have to do is head through the Omega-4 relay and you should be able to save everybody. Provided you have the loyalty of your team. That is my experiences so take them as you will. Lancer1289 22:40, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Restructuring Guide.
I'm wondering if the Guide should be restructured to better follow the path the player takes in accomplishing the mission's story. For starters, the recruit missions are completely jumbled and give no credence to which order they should be recruited and even what order they CAN be recruited. It's not possible to recruit Legion, Samara, Tali, or Thane before the player has recruited Garrus, Grunt, Mordin, and Jack; and completes the mission on Horizon, nor does the guide even really mention the Horizon mission or the Collector ship misson. I know that this game isn't as clearly deliniated into chapters as the first game was, but this current guide has no respect for the natural flow of the story.

In my opinion it should be divided into the following chapters.

Prologue


 * Save Joker


 * Awakening


 * Freedoms Progress

Chapter 1


 * Recruit The Professor


 * Recruit Archangel


 * Recruit The Warlord


 * Recruit The Convict


 * Horizon

Chapter 2


 * Recruit __________


 * Recruit __________


 * Collector Ship


 * Recruit __________


 * IFF

Chapter 3


 * Suicide Misson

Mind you that's just basic and I know there are other ways to structure it, but the point I'm trying to make is that the current format makes NO sense whatsoever.Elamdri 16:48, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would call them Acts not Chapters. Lotier 16:54, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * The exact word is immaterial, Acts, Chapters, Episodes, whatever you wanna call it, it's just a filler term. I don't care about what it says, I'm promoting that the current STRUCTURE is sloppy and could be cleaned up quite a bit so that players looking for help would better understand the flow of the game. Elamdri 17:42, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I like collecting the loyalty missions next to the team members. However you can't immediately do the loyalty missions after recruiting someone, so it might be worth considering grouping it into recruiting missions and loyalty missions? It might also be worth explaining how to unlock the loyalty missions Steviesteveo 22:46, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

It would be useful if we also had a planet-resources guide, as I don't want to use too many probes that cost! Okay so I only did one planet then went to omega and recruited Mordin so far, but still! --AlexMcpherson 01:28, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Restructuring the guide (again).
Okay, it's me, 'alexmcpherson' again. I just split this into another section, because I thought this section of the talk was getting a bit too long. Here's what I imagine the 'contents' menu on the article should look like: Contents:
 * 1 From ME1 to ME2
 * 1.1 Character Carryover
 * 1.2 Game Mechanic Changes
 * 1.3 Notes
 * 2 Walkthrough
 * 2.1 Prologue
 * In the article, this point would detail that this section is played pretty much linearly.
 * 2.1.1 SR-1 Normandy
 * 2.1.2 Two Years Later
 * 2.1.3 Freedoms Progress
 * 2.2 Act I
 * In the article, this point would detail what sections you can play out-of-order (if any aren’t played in a specific order, that is.)
 * 2.2.1 Omega
 * 2.2.x Etcetera
 * 2.2._ Final mission of the act [something about ‘horizon’.]
 * 2.3 Act II
 * 2.3.x Etcetera
 * 2.3._ Collector Ship – How many missions/whatever before this happens.

And so forth. After the Walkthrough, ‘3’ and so on would be non-mission guides. I.e. Item-related (upgrading the ship, romance, etc.), These would be the guides to how to do the particular romances and the 'avoid this' etcetera. As I don't really know WikiCode, aside from the quad-dash-tidle thing to sign posts and colon to indent, I don't think I should be the one to do the restructure. That I haven't even started to go past recruiting Mordin too, is another point.--AlexMcpherson 01:57, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

I really don't think that the Game Mechanic Changes are relevant to a walkthrough. I think it's good information, but not useful on this page. Lotier 05:31, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * By 'Game Mechanic Changes' I refer to certain differences that would screw up with an experienced ME1 players' gameplay flow. i.e. the changed combat system. And its no 'Mass Effect 2 Campaign Walkthrough' its, 'Mass Effect 2 Guide'. As the notes are there anyway, I think it just needs structuring properly.--AlexMcpherson 13:22, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

I'll take a gander at it (I can do wikicode pretty well), but I'd like to know if anyone objects or if we need to build a consensus before going ahead. UERD 02:02, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your proposed restructuration makes sense to me, especially after you have taken into account the request to keep the wording as much as possible (Acts vs. Chapters, for instance). One question though: what would you do with the loyalty missions? My proposal would be to keep them in a specific section (2.4 probably), but before the Act III (which would be section 2.5), as the effect on the final mission outcome can be dramatic if you have skipped all of them. Celorilm 14:19, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

I like the changes Longzheng 14:37, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

This page was changed, but still needs a lot of work. I propose the following: Let me know if there are any objections or suggestions. Otherwise, I'll do some stuff on it in a couple of hours or so. UERD 23:48, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Prologue, Act I, Act II, etc are made into top-level headings, for ease of use. We can label them 'Act I Walkthrough', 'Act II Walkthrough', etc.
 * The walkthrough goes through Acts I, Acts II, and Acts III (the ending) first. Then sections after the 'Act III' section will detail aspects of the loyalty missions, optional missions, etc. There will be notes in the main walkthrough at the appropriate times directing players to, for example, make sure they do the loyalty missions, and then directing them to the proper section for details on hte loyalty missions.
 * We split off the 'Changes from Mass Effect' into a new page. The section here has a link to the new page, as well as a short list of the most important tips (such as the change to the heatsink ammo system).
 * The 'Bad Ending' section can be removed, or moved to its own page. Its contents are pretty redundant- don't follow the suggestions, and you get the bad ending. If we want to go more into detail we can have a different page detailing 'Mass Effect 2 Ending Dynamics' or whatever.


 * I would love to see Prologue, Act1/2/3 as top level headings, as it would clean up a lot of deep level links. I've already agreed with the "Changes from Mass Effect" above somewhere, and it was so everything can be bumped up a level. Agree with the Bad Ending section, maybe even reword the "Don't Pick"/"Pick" choices so goes more with the Everyone Alive/Everyone Dead ending. (Which would make the article more neutral, letting the player pick what they want.) As to putting the what I called "Interlude" (aka Optional Missions) after everything, I choose not do to that as people read progressively. If they are playing by just following the details of the article they may skip over the "Please goto Section X to look at the Loyalty missions" (and I didn't want to see this all over the page.) and just keep follow the directions set here, suddenly finding themselves in Act 3 without looking at the next section.Lotier 02:08, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I pretty much agree with the last proposal, with only one objection: as I said before, I think it is important not to put the loyalty missions and other "optional" (even though very important to the final outcome) missions after Act 3, for the same reasons Lotier stated just above (people tend to read sequentially, could easily overlook a one line warning and might become very disappointed with the guide if they only discover the importance of these missions after they tried the final sequence with few loyal members...). Therefore, I would recommend to keep these in a top section between Act 2 and 3. Celorilm 04:26, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with all of this. Guide looks a lot cleaner now. Content still needs to be worked through, but this is a really good start. UERD 00:06, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Loyalty, and how it affects other decisions afterwards
Okay, so I've not played beyond the first recruit (for me: mordin.) and most of the, spoilers, I've read are in the Talk sections (thankfully, I don't mind spoilers, infact, certain ones mean I'm willing to do several silmultaneous playthroughs both male and female, with a base 'this is what works' character. So it's cheating of a sort, whatever :P) But it seems to me that the, ahm, abduction, the decisions you make about who does what and the results of those decisions can differ based on if you got that persons' loyalty or not.

So would someone mind collating the data from many players to see if there is a discrepancy between those results when the character involved's loyalty is different. And did that look as tongue-twisting as I just thought it did.

Just post here who you sent, what the loyalty of those were when you did, and a yay or nay result (yay being the good one obviously)... Oh, where's my manners. Please. *puppydog eyes*. --AlexMcpherson 01:37, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Timing Error?
"during this part of the game after recruiting all characters you must go on board a collecters ship this will happen after the "illusive man" contacts you he says that a turian cruiser disabled it after you damaged it back on horizon"

I was forcibly sent to the collector's ship (could not access galaxy map) before recruiting either Thane or Samara. I'm not sure what the trigger is, but it's not recruiting all characers. Twilsemail 16:39, February 2, 2010 (UTC).


 * It's not how many you've recruited, it's how many missions you've completed. A mission is defined as any quest that ends in a Illusive man summary screen.Killswitch19 18:14, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is just the end of Disc 1. At this point you're about 1/3, or so, of the way through the game. You still have plenty of time to recruit other members and complete more missions/assignments. --ArmeniusLOD 02:44, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Death in Session 2
I have gotten up to the part with the biotic shield. I had fully upgraded the Normandy and noone had died thus far. I chose Zaeed and Garrus in my crew, Tali to crawl through the tube, and Jacob to lead 1st fire team, then I chose Jack for the shield, Mordin for the escort, and Miranda to lead my team, Zaeed and Garrus again in my crew, I had got to the cutscene after the Shield part and Garrus stayed in the open and was abducted by the swarm, Is this because Jack wasn't loyal (I chose Miranda in their fight after blowing up the jail). Someone tell me why Garrus "died", because I really liked him, or is he even dead? Gerry Spring 21:59, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Using non-loyal teammates to do any of the special tasks will result in people dying. Try using Samara, she's the other 'valid' option. UERD 23:34, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Adding in one-time only items in the walkthrough
There are a lot of items that are acquired in the loyalty/recruitment missions that are only available so long as you are in that mission, and lost forever once completed. If you are trying to max upgrades, complete all quests etc., this would seem like something to include. I've been working on the upgrade part (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mass_Effect_2:_Upgrade_Locations) for weapons which would make it easy to tie in, but someone would have to add in quest items as well (ie. missing locket, forged IDs, etc.) Thoughts? Killswitch19 18:13, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * The article is titled 'guide'. I would hazard a guess that in the proposed restructured format, there would be like a notice about various things like above, and those be in a section below the campaign walkthrough part. I dunno, this is the first game guide I've been suggesting the strucutre of. --AlexMcpherson 19:33, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also remember, that: to be useful this guide must be kept concise enough (if it is too much detailed, it might discourage careful reading) and, ultimately, there should be one detailed page existing for each mission, which is meant to be the reference and place to find any details (see the Missions page and the Talk: Missions related page for ongoing preparatory work). Even though this overall guide will remain useful as an entry point (it should point to the detailed mission pages once they are ready) and as an overview, I do not think that it is advisable to try to fit in each and every piece of information. Celorilm 04:39, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Too true, Cel. --AlexMcpherson 18:02, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree the individual mission page would be much better suited for that information. And at some point each mission listed here should have links to those pages eg
 * Tali (Dossier section)
 * For complete mission details goto Dossier: Tali
 * etc.Lotier 02:47, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * If nobody seriously objects, I will implement my plan for improvement of the plot missions section the Missions page and creation of individual mission pages (which you can read on Talk: Missions), in about 24 H.


 * Thanks for checking and giving your advice. Celorilm 09:48, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Current Collector Ship Mission is Wrong
Currently, the Collector Ship Mission says that the Mission begins after the player collects all the party memebers except Legion. This is untrue. I was forced to do the Mission after Recruiting Tali and Thane, but I had yet to do the Justicar Mission. I'm not sure what triggers the mission, but the current iteration is false. Elamdri 21:56, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think you are right that the current writing of that triggering condition is probably inexact. During my playthrough, I think it occured after recruiting Thane and Samara, but before going on a trip to recruit Tali. As, when looking into the "Stop the Collectors" main mission, the sub-part "Go to the Collector Ship" (wich corresponds to receving the Illusive Man's message requesting that you go investigate) appears right after the second "Assemble a team" part (Assassin, Justicar and Tali recruitment), my guess would be that the triggering factor is that: you must have completed enough the "Assemble a team" part (meaning 2 of 3 recruited, likely) and go back to the Normandy (so that you can receive the Illusive Man's message). Maybe if you first go after Tali, then go to Illium in perform the Assassin and Justicar missions, without going back to the ship, you can perform the 3 recruitment missions before receiving the trigerring message... To be confirmed :) Celorilm 05:16, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, as soon as you recruit two of those members (Assassin, Justicar and Quarian) you are given the "Go to the Collector Ship" Keep in mind that after every mission you are forced to go back to the Normandy--every door and most NPCs offer you the option to leave. Lan EX 12:35, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is also not true, as I received the mission after recruiting Tali and I'd not yet recruited either Smara or Thane. I would imagine it has to do with the number of missions completed. Twilsemail 20:49, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's almost certainly based on the number of missions completed, or (less likely, in my opinion) the number of recruited team members plus the number of loyalty missions completed; it just triggered for me immediately after I completed the loyalty missions for Grunt and Mordin, and before I'd recruited Tali, Samara, Thane or Legion. 60.224.19.124 21:35, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops - I have recruited Tali! Sometimes I forget things! Nevertheless, it triggered after I did some loyalty missions, and not after a recruitment. 60.224.19.124 21:40, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Collector Ship Triggers
I suggest an Article page where people give a list of the order they recrutied/done missions and see if there's a pattern. --AlexMcpherson 18:09, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it's level based? Maybe not, but needs to be verified.

Miranda on final mission
Requested: In my game she was not loyal, and she also resigns. However she also dies after the final fight.
 * Should Miranda be unloyal and in the squad at the end of this mission segment, what is her response to the Illusive Man's orders?

New Talk Page for the order-of-missions/collector ship triggers
Just so we can save space on that entire thing. Linky here:
 * Talk:What_order_did_you_play_the_missions


 * --AlexMcpherson 23:14, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Occured to me...
That Some of us might have been willing to buy a detailed guide. I don't know about you but, as I did buy it, and it arrived ,, ahem, yesterday morning, I'd quite like it to be worth it for awhile.

So... Talk:ME2_guide_coverage_and_detail. taking names. I'm curious to see just who and how many are wondering if we really should be detailed when there's the Prima Game Guide that is readily availabe to buy in game shops and online retailers. For games less than 3 months old I'd be willing to buy the hardcopy of the guides, but older, not so much. -AlexMcpherson 04:33, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * The difference here is that the information is made freely available and is frequently updated. After awhile I'm sure the information here will be more detailed and accurate than the print guide. Especially considering the writing, layout, and organization of Prima guides are poor and severely lacking. I'm also more interested in a guide and information than a complete narrative of the game, which print guides often are to make them longer and seem worth the cost. (Sorry for the run-on sentence, but I can rant about Prima guides all day.) --ArmeniusLOD 04:46, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would agree. I certainly don't see Prima having a similar product on sale being a great reason for watering down a wiki. I think the people here have done an excellent job making a guide based on their experiences of the game. I'd argue that the fact that people can go online and write guides like this is something for Prima to respond to (by improving their guides above what you can get on wikis, for example), rather than for fans of the game to respond to by not writing about the game Steviesteveo 07:22, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just took a look at the Prima guide today and there isn't much in it that one wouldn't be able to figure out by themselves. Once again the "guide" (I use that word loosely) is more about narrating the game to the reader than actually guiding. The only things that are slightly useful are the resource concentrations on planets and maps for the missions. The guide for the first game was far more useful than this one. --ArmeniusLOD 09:17, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * We should absolutely not withhold any content from the guide. Buyer's remorse is not a valid reason, neither is avoiding competing with Prima. There is ample precedent for highly-detailed, free guides for computer and video games available online (just look at GameFAQs). As well, the onus is completely on the reader, and not on us, to avoid spoilers. If the player wants to enjoy the game without it being spoiled, he or she simply has to not come here and read the page. We also do not have any legal responsibility to censor ourselves. Anyways, if you have buyer's remorse, censoring this wiki isn't going to fix anything, because detailed guides are going to be posted very soon on other sites. UERD 00:11, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

How I saved EVERYONE
Here are the steps that I took to save the entire team and crew of the Normandy

Step 1: Recruit Mordin

Step 2: At this point, make sure that you immediately talk to and get every upgrade from your squad members. Repeat for each new Squad member.

Step 3: Recruit Archangel

Step 4: Recruit The Warlord

Step 5: Recruit the Convict

Step 6: Horizon Misson

Step 7: Do Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Mordin, and Grunt's Loyalty Missions. DO NOT DO JACK'S!

Step 8: Recruit Tali

Step 9: Do Tali's Loyalty Mission: DO NOT GIVE THE ADMIRALS THE EVIDENCE

Step 10: Recruit Thane

Step 11: At this Point, I was required to do the collector ship mission

Step 12: Do Thane's Loyalty Mission

Step 13: Recruit Samara

Step 14: Do Samara's Loyalty Mission.

Step 15: Make sure that you have almost full Paragon/Renegade. Take this time to complete side missions if you need to. Stock up on minerals.

Step 16: Do Jack's Loyalty Misson. Afterwards, Diffuse the fight between her and Miranda with the Paragon/Renegade option to maintain their loyalty

Step 17: SAVE YOUR GAME

Step 18: Do the Reaper IFF Mission

Step 19: Immediately Go talk to Legion and get his loyalty mission

Step 20: After Legion's Loyalty mission, use the Paragon/Renegade option to diffuse the fight between Legion and Tali

Step 21: At this point, your crew will be kidnapped. If you complete any more missions/assignments, Kelly dies.

Step 22: Make sure you have Legion's upgrade.

Step 23: Inventory Time: You need the ship shields, the ship armor, the ship guns and any individual upgrades (Mordin's Omni-Tool, Grunt's shotgun, Jack's Biotics, Legion's Rifle)

Step 24: Go through the Omega 4 Relay

Step 25: Send Legion into the pipe

Step 26: Have Garrus Lead the 2nd squad

Step 27: Send Jacob back with the crew

Step 28: Have Jack hold the shield

Step 29: Have Miranda lead the 2nd squad this time

Step 30: I took Mirand and Thane with me out of personal preference. Boss easily defeated. Achievement Earned.

Final Battle Part 1
The Scion glitch also applies in the 360. They just sat there until I moved around a barrier to get a clearer shot. My squad mates also didn't recognize them as a threat until they activated. JeremyWinston 15:15, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Act 2 Trigger
I found in one of my play-throughs that even though I had all available team members and completed a side quest the collector ship event did not trigger until I had completed Jack’s Loyalty mission.

I would say that you need 6 members and to complete one loyalty mission for Act 2 to trigger. (May need some other tests for exact combination of team members required.)

MINIMAL TEAM
I want to acquire a minimal possible team for the Suicide Mission, complete their loyalty quests, finish the storyline with everyone surviving and continue assembling the team in the freeplay. Is that possible?


 * the first round of recruitment (Mordin, Garrus, Grunt, Jack) are all needed to trigger horizon. Recruiting two of: Zaeed, Tali, Samara, Thane, to trigger collector ship. Then do the loyalty missions. However, I haven't looked at the 'tables' for who does what to win. AlexMcpherson 22:51, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

In particular, I want to recruit Tali after the mission. But she provides Multicore Shielding upgrade for the ship. So who dies if this upgrade is not installed?


 * No clue. And please, sign your posts. It's simple. Very bad form not to on a page were there could be two or ten people and you wouldn't know it, as no one signed so it could just be one person with MPD. AlexMcpherson 22:57, February 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * See below. 192.83.228.119 02:12, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

SOLE SURVIVOR...AGAIN
I want to finish the game and being the only survivor of the suicide mission, possibly having all the characters and letting everyone die...this Shepard is quite bad as a leader. Any suggestion? --Saharo 23:49, February 10, 2010 (UTC) I don't think that is possible, you have to have as least one person there to pull Shepard onto the ship.Lotier 00:49, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

So I'll try having only Garrus to survive, acquiring every character, but leaving Grunt and Legion unactive. My project is:

Only Garrus is loyal, and I'll pick him with my squad always so that he doesn't die in the suicide mission.

no upgrade to the ship (Thane, Tali and Jack should die, right?)

Session1: Samara Fireleader, Jacob Specialist (Jacob dies, right?)

Garrus Miranda Mordin Samara Jacob Jack Tali Thane [Grunt, Legion inactive]

Session2: Samara Fireleader, Miranda Specialist (another one should die i think)

At this point I guess it is sufficient to have Garrus with me on the party and me and Garrus will be the only survivor of the mission. I'd like my crew to die too, so I'll try to make the worst choice possible.

Could this work? --Saharo 18:02, February 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Garrus will get swept away by the insects if you choose Miranda to establish the barrier instead of Samara/Morith. Usually the choice is between Garrus or Grunt, but if Grunt is inactive then it will definitely be Garrus. With your present plan, you'll be left with Miranda, and if she's not loyal, she'll be killed by falling debris after you kill the final boss. At that point, your whole crew will be extinguished, at which point no one will pull Shepard onto the ship and Shepard will die. 192.83.228.119 02:12, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I read somewhere that the squad member carried away by the bugs is always the second squad member you choose. I don't know if this is verified, though, but it may allow you to get Garrus past the bubble reliably. Also, it's possible to sell Legion to Cerberus and kill Grunt after opening up his tank, if you want to go for a really insane bad ending. UERD 02:31, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Send Change Session2 to Garrus Fireleader, Miranda as the Specialist. You'll only have Mordin and Samara as team choices, one of them should die being carried off by the bugs. Then use Garrus and another squad members as your final team, Garrus should live, the other squad member should die. And with luck the other squad member will die holding the door.
 * OR
 * Session2: Garrus Fireleader, Miranda Specialist, Mordin Escort. Mordin dies in escort, Samara dies carried off by bugs, Miranda dies in final battle. (Is this allowed as you would only have one possible selection to be squad member in session 2 then, maybe game forces no escort selection at this point?)Lotier 06:23, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Saharo I will tell you if it works, thanks! Ohh, one last thing: loyalty missions. I could make loyal, without changing the outcome we're describing, Thane, Tali, Jack and obviously Garrus. Then I can make Miranda loyal and make her loose the loyal status. Someone else I can make loyal without any risk of surviving? (sorry all this seems pointless to you...this Shepard must arrive at Mass Effect 3 traumatized) 10:35, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Ammo packs dropped by Harbinger during Human-Reaper fight.
Since there are combat strategy proposals in the section about fighting the human reaper, I thought it should mention the special heavy weapon ammo packs dropped by Harbinger during this fight. Especially because these are special items i haven't met anywhere else in the game. L3zl13 11:28, February 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * So that's where my magic power cells came from! I fired the Cain once and whittled away at the Reaper, but only had 90% ammo left...when suddenly I got more power cells! Excavating that thing's head with a quasi-nuclear fireball was pretty awesome. Definitely add in a note. UERD 06:32, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

A question about continuing and "restarting."
As I type this I am turning off my 360 for what feels like the first time in days. I've just saved the galaxy from the Collector threat, and I managed to save all of my crew. However I know there are still dozens of unexplored planets out there, quests to finish and items to research. That being said, I chose the option to continue my game. But I'm curious... Is it possible to use this save, that is to say the one I chose to continue, as my restart point? Here's an example: Say I didn't get any of the personal weapon upgrades the first time 'round, so I spend a while getting all of that completed. Would it be possible to use this save as my restart point so all of that fresh progress transfers over? Or would it only be the progress that was completed upon my initial beating of the game?

AngelOfIron 11:35, February 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * When you select ME2 new game plus, you choose a career, and then you load any save file made after you beat the game proper (or maybe you load the most recent autosave, not sure). So it is definitely possible to do stuff around the galaxy and then create a new character with all the post-game benefits.

UERD 06:34, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Excellent! Thank you very much UERD, that was exactly what I needed to hear. :)

AngelOfIron 06:53, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Would many of the things you had gotten over the course of ME2 transfer over when you start a new game? Specifically: purchased N7 armor pieces, found weapons (My M-97 Viper SR), researched upgrades (discluding the three important ones for the Normandy), and/or collectible model ships? Somebody please answer this question ASAP, I really want to know.

75.27.149.44 9:17, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Ship Upgrades
The ship upgrades are responsible for the following scenes (NOTE that ONLY the upgrades [or lack thereof] affect who dies; the loyalty status, at least in the following scenes, is irrelevant):

1. Armor (upgrade obtained from Jacob)

Without upgraded armor, when the eyeball robot things (I think they're called "Oculi", singular "Oculus") attack the Normandy after traveling through the Omega 4, JACK will be lasered to death as she's working a console.

With armor, this scene will not occur; no one dies.

2. Kinetic Shields (upgrade obtained from Tali)

When Joker flies through debris, EDI mentions that the Normandy's kinetic barriers are not designed to withstand hard impacts. If Kinetic Shields are not upgraded, Joker responds, "No time to upgrade now!" and a scene plays where the reactor core of the Normandy explodes. TALI or LEGION will be killed. The choice is totally random; the loyalty status of either crew member does not reduce his or her chance to be randomly chosen.

The only possible way to eliminate the random chance is to not activate Legion at all, such that he would never be thrown into the roulette, at which point Tali will be killed for sure.

If Kinetic Shields are upgraded, Joker will respond, "It's a good thing we upgraded, then!" and the reactor core scene will not occur; no one dies.

3. Weapons (upgrade obtained from Garrus)

Without upgraded weapons, Joker will fly the Normandy straight toward the main gun of the Collector ship (you know, that big yellow laser beam gun that it has on its front) in an attempt to destroy it. After he fires down the barrel of this gun, Joker pulls up just in time to evade the oncoming laser strike. However, he cuts it too close and grazes the side of the Normandy against the Collector ship as he jerks upward. A quick scene then plays in which a metal girder pushes through a wall inside the Normandy and impales THANE, killing him.

If weapons are upgraded, the shots from the Normandy will puncture large holes in the hull of the Collector ship, and (this I'm not quite sure about, but I think it's true) the whole scene with Joker flying down the barrel of the laser cannon to get shots in never occurs. Either way, the scene with the girder definitely does not occur and no one dies.

Perhaps worthy of note is the fact that the death of these characters does not prevent the player from completing the rest of the mission without casualties. Even if killed, Jack's role of upholding the barrier can still be done with Samara/Morinth. Similarly, whether Tali or Legion is killed in the reactor core, the other can still be used to fill the role of the Tech Specialist to climb into the shaft. 192.83.228.119 02:12, February 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I haven't recruited Tali and Thane, and Zaeed got killed in the engine room (I took Legion and Garrus into fight). Kd82 01:37, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

'Free' missions after Reaper IFF
First playthrough: acquired everyone and did everyone's loyalty missions (except for Legion), boarded the Reaper, and got Legion. I then did one mission (Legion's loyalty mission), and then the crew was abducted.

Second playthrough: acquired everyone and did everyone's loyalty missions (except Legion and Tali, because I wanted to take Legion aboard the quarian fleet). Boarded the Reaper, and got Legion. I was able to do two missions (both loyalty missions) before the crew was abducted.

Does anyone have any information as to how the number of 'free' missions after the Reaper IFF is determined? I know people have complained about having to choose between doing loyalty missions and saving their crew, so I don't think the wait extends to however many loyalty missions you have left to do. UERD 06:37, February 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have a theory about this. I recruited all the available crew members but did not complete every loyalty mission before retrieving the Reaper IFF. I spoke to Legion and accessed his loyalty mission immediately after retrieving him from the Reaper, but did not immediately embark on his loyalty mission. I was able to complete a number of missions before finally triggering the ambush and abduction. A friend has had a similar experience. I cannot remember if I did Legion's loyalty mission last out of all of them, but it seems likely given others' experiences. I think *completing* Legion's loyalty mission might be the trigger for the ambush and abduction -- provided that the player *accesses* the mission before doing anything else after retrieving the IFF. Does anyone have evidence that contradicts this observation? --Danse CC 17:20, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * UPDATE: My friend embarked on Legion's loyalty mission after completing two other loyalty missions following the derelict Reaper, and at the end of Legion's loyalty mission the ambush was triggered. I realize this is a far cry from definitive proof, but it is strong evidence for my case in the absence of contradiction. --Danse CC 01:35, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I found it impossible to acquire Legion's loyalty mission without first taking him out on a mission. I proceeded to take Legion along for Tali's loyalty mission and one or two other errands on the Citadel. After this I picked up Legion's Loyalty Mission, and upon attempting to leave to do Legion's Loyalty Mission, the ambush/attack triggered. It seems to be a fixed grace period of perhaps half a dozen assignments/missions. --Marcus Langley 12:58, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

In my second playthrough, I had Miranda's and Legion's loyalty quests left after the Reaper IFF mission. I was able to acquire Legion's loyalty quest immediately after activating and talking to him. Then I was able to do his loyalty quest, after which the crew was abducted, when I attempted to go to Illium for Miranda's quest. In the rest of my playthroughs Legion's loyalty quest was the only one left after the Reaper IFF mission and was also acquired immediately after activation. So the point is, in my experience, my game only gave me one quest to finish before the crew abduction. Prismvg 13:07, February 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Possibly, but in all of your cases, the abduction happened immediately following Legion's mission, which suggests Legion's mission may be the trigger for it.


 * Level 30 vanguard on insane difficulty. Acquired Legion, crew got abducted immediately after. I didnt even have time to activate legion, played the suicide mission without him. Perj 13:42, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Legion's loyalty mission IS the trigger for Collector's attack to Normandy IF you activate Legion right after the IFF. I've done some experiments here and I found that:
 * Do IFF, not activate Legion: one mission then Collectors attack


 * Do IFF, activate Legion afterwards, not acquire Loyalty Mission (not talk to it right after activating it): two missions, then Collectors attack


 * Do IFF, activate Legion afterwards, acquire Loyalty Mission (talk to it right after activating it): one mission, then Collectors attack. Braveangel 11:31, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Tiny plot hole
While you're on Horizon, you have to turn on the guns set up to drive off the collector ship. When you ask Joker to use the Normandy's weapons to attack the collector, he tells you the Normandy doesn't have the firepower. Execpt for one thing. At the time, I had upgraded the Normandy's weapons with the super cannon. That I used at the end of the game. To turn the collector ship into swiss cheese. The same ship that Joker was telling me that we didn't have the firepower to stop.Elamdri 07:24, February 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Nice catch! REgardless though, the abducted lot would be killed as they were already on the ship or somethin', right? AlexMcpherson 09:06, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * And as for the Horizon part, if you are commenting that the guns there had the ability to damage the ship when a warship didn't, you have to take into account that the ship had landed and was in the process of embarking and disembarking personnel, so it's likely that any defensive systems such as kinetic barriers (which would have been active when the Normandy encountered it) would be deactivated, making the ship more susceptible to damage from the colony's defenses. SpartHawg948 09:12, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

&nbsp No, I wasn't making a comment about the guns vs. the Normandy, I was saying that it was funny that Joker was telling me that the Normandy didn't have the firepower to harm the ship when I had already upgraded it with it's Kahmehameha beam cannon or whatever it is that Garrus gives you that you use to blow up the SAME ship at the end of the game. I mean, I know it's just a story mechanic to move the plot along, but usually Mass Effect is good at covering up those things. And at Alex, I WOULD feel bad about killing those colonists if they didn't die anyway at the end end of the game. Elamdri 05:49, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Nice catch, however the way I look at this, is similar also to the way that the Normandy is now too large to really get down and touchdown on a planet surface. Perhaps by Joker saying they don't have the firepower, he could mean that they can't get into range, even *with* Garrus' upgrade. Especially if you consider that that upgrade may do more than just smash up the collector ship, you're *very* close to the ship at that point in time, and the explosion of the collector ship would destroy the entire colony likely, if not from the explosion, then the ship actually falling over onto the colony wouldn't be good either. I think moreso that when we were having EDI use the defense gun on the ship, it was to attempt to disable it enough so that we could rescue the colonists, not destroy the ship. Jaline 05:56, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

It's so aggravting btw that you don't have the option to rescue the colonists at the end of the game. Elamdri 11:57, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

It could be that Garrus' toys aren't effective inside the atmosphere. If I understand correctly they fire a stream of liquid iron at the target. Well if your inside a strong gravity field (like a planet) your going to have a very different "projectile" path than in space. I haven't seen the section of the suicide mission where the guns get used yet (hoping to get to that tomorrow) but I understand its a deep space fight... So Joker can't use the guns in atmo, thus can't kill the Collector ship. Dang and blast his lack of software =P EDI not being available to reprogram as she's dealing with the turrets / Normandy EW defence. Dancing.Shadow 02:13, February 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Doubtful. They use an electromagnetic field for the stream-shaping. Also, gravity fields... not going to have a significant impact on path of projectile stream travelling at relativistic velocities. Even a fraction of such velocities: massively higher than standard escape velocity. Simple plot hole from one point of view. From another: Jaline named it rather well - actually destroying the cruiser within atmosphere could level entire colony, along with Shepard and away team. The force of the explosion (and an EM effect? seems unlikely: Normandy probably shielded) was enough to cripple the Normandy during end sequence, remember. Could have further drastic effects on ecosystem if explosion sufficiently large. /mordin --Marcus Langley 13:06, February 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's another plothole in the boarding of the normandy, the collectors always used swarms to capture their victims, why not unleash them on the normandy? it's the most tactical sound option when they have it availible, it's basicly unstoppable after all. I do realise it would put a bigger dent in the plot but it's just not believable to me at least... Nizzemancer 23:00, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's another plothole in the boarding of the normandy, the collectors always used swarms to capture their victims, why not unleash them on the normandy? it's the most tactical sound option when they have it availible, it's basicly unstoppable after all. I do realise it would put a bigger dent in the plot but it's just not believable to me at least... Nizzemancer 23:00, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

My guess would be because of doors. Swarms are basically unstoppable... except when they can't open doors. Troopers, on the other hand, aren't hindered by those pesky airtight doors. So I'm not ready to call this one a plot hole. SpartHawg948 02:36, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Thane dies?!
Im am very disapointed thane dies we were best buds! im confused to how he died though... he got carried off by the bug swarm. He was loyal though and samara wasnt and she survived.

Samara was holding the shield, and my squad members were thane and garrus. Miranda was the other squad leader. Tali took the crew back to the normandy. Can anyone verify why Thane died?94.10.36.34 00:09, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

If Samara was projecting the shield and wasn't loyal, that's the reason Thane died. Matt 2108 00:12, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Ah man Thane was a great character. Saying i put someone loyal to hold the sheild, would one of the squad protecting still died?94.10.36.34 00:17, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

The only people that can successfully hold the shield without any casualties are Jack (loyal) and Samara/Morinth (loyal). Matt 2108 00:19, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Thats good to know for the next playthrough. Thanks Matt 2108!94.10.36.34 00:21, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Check the end of the Mass Effect 2 Guide if you need anymore tips who to use for the different parts of the suicide mission. Matt 2108 00:24, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Oh. Great.
Somehow my whole team died except Shepard himself and Miranda.

Every team member was loyal though except Tali and Jack.

How did this happen? Mattitude999 00:38, February 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Did you even read this discussion page or the Suicide Mission part of the actual article? We've already established exactly who dies when and under what circumstances. If your teammates were loyal and still died, you made poor decisions in deciding who to lead the teams, and you went in without fully upgrading your ship. I won't go into the details, since they're literally all posted right above this...Shepard Commander 02:54, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Collector mission - the whos who
I had every single character loyal before i went on the mission. For the vents, I chose legion.

For the first second squad I chose Jacob.

I brought Jack and Miranda with me.

Then I used Samara, Garrus, and Mordin.

My team, I can't remember now who I used.

First playthrough: Everyone Survived. AlexMcpherson 06:37, February 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your choices coincide with our present knowledge of the situation, further confirming that we're on the right track. This puzzle is pretty much solved--if you get all the important ship upgrades, make all the right decisions, have all your squadmates loyal, and send Mordin back with the survivors (all of which are detailed above), the chance of all of your squadmates surviving is put pretty close to--if not at--100%. Shepard Commander 03:00, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Collector Ship / Vanguard & M-76 Revenant

 * PC-only exploits should not be listed on this wiki, since there's got to be at least a billion. A computer game is always hackable and modifiable, whereas a console game isn't as much. Anyways, to get to what you're saying, no, the M-76 Revenant cannot be acquired under any circumstance by Vanguards. The idea behind the Collector Ship weapon pick is that it offers weapon training in three areas: Shotguns, Assault Rifles, and Sniper Rifles. However, if the player already has weapon training in one of those three areas (the class you choose determines which guns you have training in) they can instead opt to receive a superpowered weapon in place of that weapon training. For example, as a Sentinel, who has no training in any of those three weapon types, you can opt to receive training in the weapon of your choice. As an Infiltrator, you already possess training in Sniper Rifles--thus, you could choose to get training in Assault Rifles or Shotguns, or pick up a superpowered sniper (the Widow Anti-Material Rifle).The M-76 Revenant is an Assault Rifle; the ONLY class that can use Assault Rifles off the bat is the Soldier, and thus only Soldiers can ever use the Revenant. The weapon choice you make carries over into the next game and cannot be changed if you choose to make a New Game+, so the aforementioned rule still holds (i.e. I can't make a Sentinel, pick up Sniper Rifle Training on my first run, make a NG+, and then pick up the Widow [or anything else, for that matter] on my second run). In a NG+ the entire scene where Shepard gets to pick a weapon or weapon training on the Collector ship is skipped. Shepard Commander 03:10, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can confirm that the scene is skipped - facial reconstruction is skipped as well. Which is a shame - it would have made a nice incentive for multiple playthroughs, as well as differing attitudes and approaches to scenarios. Save the guns: collect the whole set! --Marcus Langley 13:10, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Paragon/Renegade during Miranda/Jack Confrontation
The main page says that if you are romantically involved with either, then you do not receive the Paragon/Renegade option to secure both mates loyalty. I just completed a playthrough, where I had completed Miranda's romantic dialog tree and received the paragon dialog choice during this scene.

I don't like editing other people's work, but I will if suggested. --JeremyWinston 03:21, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Same, sort of. I was romantically involved with Tali, and I had the paragon option during the confrontation between her and Legion, so I'd say that that statement is not true for everyone. Sounds like whoever added it didn't have the right amount of paragon or the right paragon to renegade ratio. I know on my second playthrough, with a fem shep and with paragon almost 2/3 and renegade shy of about a fourth, I could not choose the paragon option for the Jack/Miranda confrontation, so I'd say it's more paragon-to-renegade ratio related. I think I'll go ahead and remove it, citing this discussion if anyone else wants to input. Vund223 18:03, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Samara Loyalty Quest
The main page describes the steps necessary to gain Morinth's interest. It is incomplete. I did not get into a fight with anyone. I convinced the barkeep to provide free drinks; danced with someone; and saved some woman who was doing a story on some criminal by giving her a code phrase that she was in trouble. No insults, no punches. --JeremyWinston 03:32, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it matters which of the "activities" you do as long as you end up doing two or three of them. On some of my files I've gotten into fights and danced, on others I've saved the reporter and got free drinks. Morinth approached me no matter what combination I chose. You can, however, turn her away in the conversation if you're too aggressive (if you don't make enough of the paragon/renegade checks)--she'll simply say that she's going to get some drinks and then never come back, and you fail the loyalty mission. Shepard Commander 04:19, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * IIRC Samara states Morinth doesn't like anyone who is openly agressive or bullying, (or something to that effect). In my first game I believe I saved the reporter and stared down the Turians planning to rob people, used paragon to get free drinks for everyone, and stared down the Krogan. Pretty sure I didn't fight anyone. Most of the game takes a path where you get the mission outcome regardless of what you do, so I expect it's no different here.



Legion: A House Divided
Just an observation.. bit of an obvious mistake... During the initial cutscene.. Legion mentions that Geth do not use windows as it's a structual weekness.. although a little bit into the mission, at the part he explains that the a room is so many kilometers long... and you actual look out a window to see it.. lol just a little obvious mistake --Saifon
 * I think Legion referred to exterior windows, i.e. so you see out into space. That window you're talking about was just a window into another room.AlexMcpherson 23:11, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, he was referring to exterior windows Vund223 23:34, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * It should also be noted that in the Heretic Station's "info box," the station used to belong to the quarian. It's more than possible that the geth did some restructuring and reinforced the exterior of the station, but many of the interior structures remained intact. CipherCero 07:25, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

Wait a minute...
Just a minor thing, but still... I quote: " will be fighting against Collector Drones, Harbingers, and several Collector Assassins, which all have biotic barriers on harder difficulties (Drones gain armor on Hardcore and Insanity only)". I played on both Hardcore and Insanity difficulties, and Drones only had a biotic barrier. The only one with both armor and barrier was Harbinger. So did anyone actually had to encounter drones with armor? If I might say, that would have been a major pain in the ass. Prismvg 12:28, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

I think this has been corrected on the article, but just to resolve the issue here, it's a typo. The statement should read "Drones gain barriers on Hardcore and Insanity only." As you correctly stated, the only Collector with both armor and a barrier--and in fact, the only Collector with armor at all--is Harbinger. All the other units have only barriers and health, except drones who have only health. On Hardcore and Insanity, drones gain a barrier like every other Collector unit. Shepard Commander 04:28, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Tali's Loyalty Mission
"Choosing the Paragon option on Tali's behalf and selecting the "Don't Go to war" grants a massive amount of Paragon points (+34). This is more than requesting Mordin to not destroy the genophage workings."

-Sorry, I opted to remove this for a few reasons. First, it suggests the "Don't go to war" option is included in the "massive amount of Paragon points", which is untrue. It's only worth +2 points. Second, for you to get the full +34, you should also tell the Admiralty Board that Tali saved the ship at the outset of the trial (for another +2), and the final +30 Paragon points is available through 3 options: 1. the Paragon option, 2: the choice to withhold the evidence and get Tali exiled, and 3. to rally the crowd. I could have edited this to include all that, but I felt that it was quite clear on the Morality Guide page, where I thought it belonged, which was also my third reason for removing it. If info like this is added to the general guide, it should at least specify where the paragon points come from, since the sentence above suggests that choosing the "Don't go to war" is a requirement to get the massive bonus to paragon points (which it isn't, in fact, the full +34 bonus to Paragon points can be achieved WITHOUT saying "Don't go to war"; if you instead choose to say that Tali's with you at the conclusion of the trial, you can still get +34 paragon if you followed the right choices).