Forum:Additions to Chat Rules

Ever since the launch of the chat feature, there have ideas that have been thrown around and some good some bad. However, several have kept coming back, both influenced by past experiences, past instances in dealing with behavior, and a number of other things. Therefore, the following rules will be added to the Policies regarding Chat and they are as follows. Rules will be broken up by sections or a new section if applicable.

All rule additions are in blockquote form.

New Section: Accessing Chat: "In order to utilize the Chat Live! feature of the Mass Effect Wiki, a user must accumulate Fifty (50) mainspace edits. Of these 50, 25 of these edits have to be meaningful edits and 25 can be small, correction type edits. What type of edits count are edits to any article. What types of edits do not count are talk page edits, user page edits, sandbox edits, user talk page edits, blog comments, blog space, forum space, or uploads. They must be mainspace edits and have to be meaningful edits that result in positive change. Edits are classified as follows:
 * Correction type edits are classified as, but are not limited to, adding categories, fixing spelling errors, fixing grammar errors, fixing Shepard gender references, or small things of that nature.
 * Meaningful edits are classified as, but are not limited to, rewriting paragraphs to make them more readable, adding several valuable player notes, adding new content, or adding missed content.
 * All edits are evaluated by Admins for legitimacy and Admins and Chat Moderators reserve the right to kick users without notice or warning if they do not meet this criteria.
 * Note that if an edit is undone, it may or may not count towards either quota.

A user must have a valid account with the Mass Effect Wiki for 14 days (2 weeks). Meaning that in order to use the feature, you must have been editing for 2 weeks before getting access to the feature.

If a Chat Moderator is uncertain if a user has meet the criteria, then they reserve the right to allow a user to stay or kick them at their prerogative and forward the case to an admin for review. The admin can either agree or overrule the decision but must respect the decision the Chat Moderator’s decision at the time."

Under Grounds for Blocking Headline: "If a user who has been banned from Chat Live! in the last 30 days, they will not be permitted to use the feature. Once the 30 day period expires after the ban expires, then and only then will they be permitted to utilize the feature. A user in violation of this policy will be warned, both in chat and on their talk page, and if they do not abide by the warning, they face another longer block."

Under Consequences Headline: "A user may question why they were kicked to the appropriate person, the person who kicked them, a Chat Moderator, or an Admin. Admins again do maintain the right to overrule Chat Moderators on this decision."

For

 * 1) As Proposer. Lancer1289 (talk) 06:53, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) Seems reasonable. It will weed out undesirables from the Chat.--SolitaryReaper (talk) 7:29, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) SpartHawg948 (talk) 09:53, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4) I have already said I supported this.--Legionwrex (talk) 17:09, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 5) -- Commdor (Talk) 18:56, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Neutral

 * 1) meh. T̴̴͕̲̞̳̖̼̱͒͛̎͒ͫ̃ͧeͩ̈̽̈҉͓̝̰̼̦̫̤̀͠m̫̪̪̯̻͎̫̅̇̓̇͌̚p̸̙̝̓̓͌ͨ͆ͣͥ̂̕o͒̽͐̽͏̞̬̻͕͔͕͚̰͍͠͞ṙ̢̞͚͈̹̰ͨ̓ͭ̈́̌ạ̢̧̪̹̺̺̣̹̲͂͆̏ͪͨ͒ͭř̹͈͜͠y̷͍̻̜̹̼̾̽̈́e̵̹̼̟̦͚͐̈́͌͘d͉̲̣̻͉̱͗̅ḭ̷̻̆͋̆̓̔͝t̨͍̦̫̗͂̅̍̋̆ͩ͝ộ̫̟̬̳̝̲̾ͫ̒̿ͮ̑̚rͯ̎ͨͭ̄̿̽͛҉̠̫̱̠̘̘̲́ͅ7̩̻ͤͩͨ͝͡8̜̣̙͇̻ͨ͛͛̆͒̆̽̒͐͜͡ ͥ̍̉̃̇ͥ̓ͨ͏̕҉̥̹͓̗̤̠̖̤ (talk) 08:34, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) On the fence. LilyheartsLiara (talk) 00:50, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) fime either way--Agentsmit58 (talk) 05:34, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Against

 * 1) Bad50cal (talk) 11:06, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) I don't believe that wikia's features are meant for a club of exclusives. --Ygrain (talk) 11:50, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) It'll only make the chat even more deserted at times. So no. Sqarkplugz (talk)
 * 4) Against. Trandra (talk) 16:40, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 5) So just because I'm not one of editors I can't have my rights? I'm FULLY against new rules. Phantom Bootie Slap (talk) 17:38, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 6) STRONGLY against. Aleksandr the Great (talk) 22:46, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 7) Never. --Mr. Mittens (talk) 04:21, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * 8) I strongly disagree, for reasons I shall articulate in the discussion section below. --The Milkman | I always deliver. 05:51, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * 9) Opposed -Algol- (talk) 07:31, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * 10) strongly against --DeldiRe 09:25, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
Can you clarify the last paragraph "Under consequences Headline"? Are you referring to the moderator's decision on how to respond to the question from a kicked user?--SolitaryReaper (talk) 7:28, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, the decision itself. Admins have always had the ability to override Chat Mods on bans and lengths of bans. The decision whether or not to answer is theirs. If they want to forward the case to an admin, fine, if they want to answer it themselves fine. Lancer1289 (talk) 07:30, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

a bunch of consequences if this passes:
 * weeding out chat undesirables (are there any?). good idea if there are more of this than people with genuine queries about ME.
 * may will put off ME newcomers about the "unwelcoming" state of the wiki community however.
 * more blog/forum posts and RC clogging (as if it wasn't already) since people who see no real need to contribute (or can't because they're literally new to the franchise) will have to do so. except that the track record of unanswered blogs/forum posts speak for themselves: obvious questions get no answers, people with no wiki-cred get no comments. chat's one easy way to get their queries answered quickly and by the time they fulfilled the necessary criteria to participate legally they would've probably known the answer to their questions or forgotten about it completely.
 * a bunch of chat regulars and blog regulars barely even meet the above stipulations. chat's going to be a lot emptier as if it wasn't already. unless the blog regulars take a break from throwing worthless opinions around and start caring about policy that threatens their "rights" expect them to clog the blogs even more if they're denied chat.
 * to that end, chatmods should probably shoulder the duty of spamming the link to this forum on chat (or even the targeted users' talkpages) as often as possible during the voting period. wouldn't be fair to deny proper representation to the targeted groups. plus those in disagreement won't have any reason to say "i didn't know about this".

as for myself, i mostly use chat to get people to confirm some things asap, so long as i get people who can confirm whatever it is i need confirming at the moment i don't really care. months or years for simple confirmation of disputed info on some things (people apparently can't be bothered to read article talkpages most of the time) is hilariously unacceptable and this is why chat exists in my book. doesn't matter if MEwiki newbie, chat regular, blog regular or admin. T̴̴͕̲̞̳̖̼̱͒͛̎͒ͫ̃ͧeͩ̈̽̈҉͓̝̰̼̦̫̤̀͠m̫̪̪̯̻͎̫̅̇̓̇͌̚p̸̙̝̓̓͌ͨ͆ͣͥ̂̕o͒̽͐̽͏̞̬̻͕͔͕͚̰͍͠͞ṙ̢̞͚͈̹̰ͨ̓ͭ̈́̌ạ̢̧̪̹̺̺̣̹̲͂͆̏ͪͨ͒ͭř̹͈͜͠y̷͍̻̜̹̼̾̽̈́e̵̹̼̟̦͚͐̈́͌͘d͉̲̣̻͉̱͗̅ḭ̷̻̆͋̆̓̔͝t̨͍̦̫̗͂̅̍̋̆ͩ͝ộ̫̟̬̳̝̲̾ͫ̒̿ͮ̑̚rͯ̎ͨͭ̄̿̽͛҉̠̫̱̠̘̘̲́ͅ7̩̻ͤͩͨ͝͡8̜̣̙͇̻ͨ͛͛̆͒̆̽̒͐͜͡ ͥ̍̉̃̇ͥ̓ͨ͏̕҉̥̹͓̗̤̠̖̤ (talk) 08:34, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

I can see the pros and cons to this. Chat will become even more deserted with less traffic, yet at the same time more people will migrate back to blogs. However, more mainspace edits will also start to appear. If we are going to do this, we might consider doing something like this to blogs as well.--Legionwrex (talk) 17:40, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, the recent mushrooming of blogs is something to be concerned about, as it drags people's attention away from mainspace edits. Also, the new chat policies will get us more mainspace edits and will dissuade people from being lazy.--SolitaryReaper (talk) 17:50, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * "more mainspace edits will also start to appear" You guys really think so? --Ygrain (talk) 18:02, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I certainly do.--Legionwrex (talk) 18:05, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * As do I. I see more and more people in chat who have never edited the mainspace, are ignorant of site policies, and do not bother to read anything for that matter. This is still a feature of the Wiki, and therefore they should have to contribute to use it. It isn't an executives club, and the user who said that is really just using rhetoric to get their point across. It is also a rather insulting statement to say the least. And if a user cannot live without chat, then they really need to rethink why they are here. Lancer1289 (talk) 18:52, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * And I am going to say this now and I really do not care at this point what anyone says. If you really have a problem with this policy, then you need to reevaluate why you are here. This is not an extension of BSN, this is a completely different site. This is a content based site, not a social site. The Chat is a feature of the site, not the main focus of the site. The focus of the site is maintaining articles, keeping this up to date, and provide a source for all ME canon information. Content first, socializing second. Lancer1289 (talk) 20:00, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Very true. Most people on the chat are equating it to the wiki; it has become Mass Effect Wiki = Live! Chat, which is ridiculous and absolutely incorrect. People are supposed to contribute and enjoy the chat at the same time, not exploit the wiki for the chat's availability.--SolitaryReaper (talk) 20:11, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Notice how all the comments here are almost entirely by people who supported the vote. Interesting...--Legionwrex (talk) 00:02, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because no one who votes against can come up with a real reason they oppose it. Or they don't want to be away from the precious chat for longer than 10 seconds for an actual debate. I have several reasons but I will keep them to myself for now. Lancer1289 (talk) 00:05, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that would be the point I was trying to secretly get across.--Legionwrex (talk) 00:10, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and I am beyond caring. I feel that pointing out the obvious at this point is probably better for everyone. Lancer1289 (talk) 00:27, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

While I do think it is reasonable for users to have to earn a privilege, I can see how it would turn off newcomers—or encourage new users to quickly make numerous low-quality edits in order to (try to) meet the criteria. I think that newer users should have a "grace period" where they have some time to meet the fifty-edit requirement, during which time they would still be required to have a (lower) certain number of edits in order to use the chat. As it stands now, I'm on the fence about this idea. LilyheartsLiara (talk) 00:48, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's the thing. Grace periods only work if people actually edit and get familiar with the rules and policies. They actually have a grace period of 2 weeks before they can use it, and allowing them in sooner doesn't make sense because someone can spam the required edits in a hour, get on, then proceed to violate policies which they know nothing about. The rules and policies here will ensure that users know those policies beforehand. Lancer1289 (talk) 01:04, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Chat is supposed to encourage users to come and chat with other users and be part of a community alongside a comprehensive wiki. I feel this will not only act counter against the feature itself, but also harm the main space as well. This could easily result in an influx of pointless edits made for the sole purpose of getting into chat. This is very similar to achievements. I can respect not having them, because after all, they can result in people editing just to boost for achievements. Also, as I said, this discourages new users from using the chat room. Chat should be a quicker way of gaining information and talking with new users, not an exclusive club for people who are here just to edit the main space. For more than any reason, I believe people come here because they love Mass Effect, not because they want to edit pages. Now some do, but not all. This also doubles as a community of fans. I understand that this wiki has tighter regulations and more comprehensive policies when it comes to editing, and I'm fine with that. This is a high-traffic wiki for a popular game. The end result is, of course, a clean and concise wiki. However, there is no need to restrict the community aspect like this. This can encourage unnatural edits, as I've stated, from people who just want to get into chat. People should edit where/when they see a problem, or a lack of information. In addition, I feel that this will increase the amount of forum threads and blogs that are, to be frank, utterly meaningless. I really see no point in restricting who can and cannot enter the chat room. I don't see what is gained in doing this. This wiki's chat room, as with many others (even the popular ones), is rarely overpopulated, so I don't really see the point. A chat room can help make the wiki more accessible to new users, but having to wait two weeks and make 50 edits feels like a needless restriction that will either discourage the new user from becoming part of this project, or encourage them to make unhealthy edits and create short, pointless blogs that could have been otherwise served better as a chat room discussion. Doing this doesn't really yield any benefit, and having more people in the chat room can't really be viewed as a bad thing. A chat room full of users on the other hand, can promote conversation and discussion amongst the community members, which itself can be a boon for this wiki.

--The Milkman | I always deliver. 06:04, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Quick question addressed to Phantom Bootie Slap: What do you mean by "So just because I'm not one of editors I can't have my rights?" Several things puzzle me here. First off... how are you not an editor. Anyone who makes an edit is an editor. Secondly, how is chat a "right"? Where is the right to unimpeded access to a Mass Effect Wiki chat codified? Who guarantees said "right"? Third, if you're not here to edit... why are you here?
 * People are making this out to be something it's not. It's not a policy meant to exclude people, and it's certainly not (IMO) excessive. Many other wikis have similar policies, and many other wikis have much stricter policies. You can't VOTE on Wookieepedia without racking up a certain number of mainspace edits. The admins will literally see who voted, check their edit history, and throw out the votes of people who don't qualify. THAT is an exclusionary and excessive policy. This is not. SpartHawg948 (talk) 06:45, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should judge this policy in relation to other wikis. Better does not necessarily mean good. I don't really see the need for this, besides weeding out editors who don't make a specific amount of edits in certain places. What are the benefits to such a policy?

--The Milkman | I always deliver. 06:50, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * The benefits are already states and Spart hit the nail on the head with what this is going to do and what this is to accomplish. Lancer1289 (talk) 07:14, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with more chat traffic, and I don't really think this will encourage more constructive edits. If anything, this will lead to edits made purely for the sake of being able to chat. It's like I said with achievements. Why don't we have them? Won't it also encourage more editing?

--The Milkman | I always deliver. 07:17, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

25 mainspace edits, seriously? I don't have that many on DA wiki, despite being somewhat notable member of the community, who uses the chat frequently. But nobody had an idea to deny me the opportunity to use it.

What if a person really wants to edit, but does not have 25 mainspace edits yet, and finds the guidelines unsatisfactory? This person might ask for advice in the chat, because it's fast, convenient real-time conversation. You're denying the opportunity.

I don't see any point to this at all, unless you really want to make the chat "a club for the privileged", like the VIP section of Afterlife. -Algol- (talk) 07:31, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

strongly against : I don't believe that wikia's features are meant for a club of exclusives. I'm a great follower of this wiki and i do some comments on talk page or some minor edit when i see that it can be relevant. Nevertheless, i do not meet those criterias. Do you think that i do not deserve to acces the chat ? This new rules policy could be push away new comers from the wikia. For me, before editing it is really relevant to learn about how the wiki is made and how the edition must be done. Pushing the edit to have access to the chat will lead to useless and irrelevant edit in an "edit run to the chat". However, to avoid spammer and vandals, the rules could be soften like subscribed since one week or something like that. But more will lead to push away new comers in the mass effect universe or new comers in this wikia. Is that what we want ?