Talk:Kelly Chambers/Archive1

Kelly to dance
Romance Kelly through out the game, save her at end game. Even though you have sex? with Miranda prior to end game you can still have Kelly send e-mail invite by talking to Miranda again and ending your relationship with her. As soon as it ended, I received a kellygram

Yeoman Chambers
In game, as seen in the Gamespot video, she's labelled as Yeoman Chambers. In keeping with naming of people like Ahern and Hackett, should the title be changed to Yeoman Chambers? Also, should we consider adding her to 'Allies' on the Characters page? She's obviously a prominent member of the crew, and a potential love interest, so she probably has a role of similar size to Joker. Or should we wait for an image at least?


 * Yeah, we need to wait for some more info to make calls like that. SpartHawg948 02:09, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * She's called Yeoman Chambers until you talk to her, when she becomes Kelly Chambers (I think)--Marshmallow2166 21:31, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Her name later on changes to just Kelly, but IIRC the subtitles refer to her as Yeoman Chambers when seen from Joker's point of view. --Winnetou 14:57, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

I think this page should be Yeoman Kelly Chambers now, since it's part of her title. The Yoshiman 97 03:05, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

current images
Has Bioware released anything on any media that shows what Kelly Chambers looks like? 24.87.4.53 22:59, January 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not that I've seen, no. SpartHawg948 23:03, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Finally, an image. Cute. :P Matt 2108 01:28, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

She reminds me of Meryl from MGS4.

I'm a little underwhelmed, personally. Wasn't sure what I was expecting but I'm sure that I was expecting too much. Suppose that's what I get for buying into all the hype. :P Derint 00:25, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

romance?
i dont think she is a potential love interest. just a little bit of flirting and dinner. oh and the fact that she gets liquified easily is probably a hint.

can anyone prove me wrong? 03:25, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * She will go to the captain's cabin in a skimpy outfit, tease dance, lap dance and cuddle in bed (regardless of Shepard's sex), but that's it. --81.191.1.103 16:27, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * dammit now you have me interested. what are the triggers for those events? 67.188.176.136 11:15, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

I believe we should add a line stating the fact that she merely dances and cuddles. That would give Wiki viewers an understanding of why "romancing" her does not unlock the Paramour achievement. Shadowdragon00000 11:24, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or, we could just state that romancing her does not unlock the Paramour achievement. Do you have proof that all she does is dance and cuddle? Because according to the video all Miranda does is unzip and partially remove her suit and sit on Shepard. Yet she still counts. And this message would seem to suggest more than just cuddling, would it not? SpartHawg948 11:29, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I do have proof that all she does is dance in cuddle. I believe I sent a YouTube clip exploring all the options with Kelly to you just a few minutes ago. Mind you, when you romance a character, the screen pans dark and you take control of Shepard a few hours later, yet this does not occur with Kelly, you merely leave your cabin when you see fit. Also, the email she sends Shepard does not indicate anything other than she intends to wear an outfit that's not appropriate for work hours. Furthermore, there's very little in the relationship between Kelly and Shepard. I say this because of the fact that when you romance a character besides Kelly, the picture frame of your romance option from ME1 is laid face down. This does not occur with Kelly, thus indicating that Shepard has very little emotional ties with Kelly.
 * But again, that IS NOT CONCLUSIVE PROOF! If we just used video, then all Miranda does is sit on Shepard with her suit zipped down to her waist! She has been referred to as a romance option by an official source. The game does reflect that there is a romance there. The article notes that this does not give you the Paramour achievement. All this debate is over is about whether or not to arbitrarily label her as a "private exotic dancer" when there is not one shred of good hard proof to support this, certainly nothing overriding official sources. SpartHawg948 11:39, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

The conclusive proof lies in the fact that the screen never pans to black to indicate sexual activity, which is the difference between romancing Miranda and "romancing" Kelly. So why not meet half way and state that she merely acts as a "dancer" and "cuddles with Shepard"?Shadowdragon00000 11:40, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or, we could meet halfway and state she is a romance option (which is true, confirmed by BioWare sources) but that romancing her does not unlock the achievement (which is true, and which, btw, was not included in the article prior to this whole brouhaha, which is why this is a compromise). SpartHawg948 11:43, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

The debate is not about whether or not Kelly is a romance option. The debate is about adding information to the Wiki page in regards the interaction options provided to the player when inviting Kelly up into Shepard's cabin.

I never once disagreed with you about Kelly being a romance option, because frankly, that's nothing more than a matter of perspective. What is not a matter of perspective, however, are the game play elements introduced once your relationship with Kelly has progressed. Shadowdragon00000 11:49, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Very true. Do we know that, for the purposes of ME3, Kelly Chambers will not carry over as a romance character? We sure don't! The real issue here is that you want it acknowledged that romancing Kelly does not get the Paramour achievement (which I agree is valid, and added in myself!) but you further want to state that all that occurs between them is dancing and cuddling, which is speculation, and you want to call her a "dancer" or "private exotic dancer" which is a characterization that I don't think is valid, as it does tend to argue against her being a romance option. SpartHawg948 11:52, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if you slow down and read my edits, you'll see that I'm suggesting to skip the comment about her being a "private exotic dancer". I'm suggesting to include the GAME PLAY OPTIONS PROVIDED TO THE PLAYER when inviting Kelly up to Shepard's cabin. It is NOT speculation when you have Kelly dance for, sit on, or cuddle with Shepard, it is fact. Notice how I'm NOT suggesting to update the page with anything that revolves around speculation? Shadowdragon00000 11:56, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Such as stating that she only dances and cuddles, when that is every bit as speculative as saying all Miranda does is pull her top down and sit on you? SpartHawg948 11:58, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Again, I'm not suggesting to say that she ONLY dances/sits on/cuddles. I'm suggesting to include INTERACTION OPTIONS. Shadowdragon00000 12:00, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * But, and I'm going by your own words here as you last articulated your position, "So why not meet half way and state that she merely acts as a "dancer" and "cuddles with Shepard"?" Hmmm... seems to my you wanted to say that she only dances/sits on/cuddles, unless there is another way to interpret "state that she merely acts as a "dancer" and "cuddles with Shepard". SpartHawg948 12:02, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Did you completely miss my last three edits about including factual interaction options and skipping speculation? If so, let me try for a fourth time. Oh dear Mr. SpartHawg948, may we update Kelly's page to include the interaction options available to the player when they "romance" Kelly? Shadowdragon00000 12:05, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Such as? I need to see some specifics, because again, the only thing you have articulated beyond vague "interaction options" is that she only dances and cuddles. And please mind the tone. I've tried to be nice and civil despite my growing agitation. I don't need to be condescended to for trying to do my job. SpartHawg948 12:07, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

My apologies. It's difficult to not direct comments in a condescending tone when it seems I'm being ignored. Anyway, how about this?

-Once the player romances Kelly and invites her up into Shepard's cabin, there will be three interaction options available. When Kelly is invited to Shepard's cabin, she will be wearing an outfit not unlike the ones seen being worn by the dancers in Chora's den and Afterlife. The first interaction option is to have Kelly perform a series of dances. The second interaction option is to have Kelly sit on Shepard's lap with the two characters caressing each other. The third and final interaction option is to have Kelly and Shepard lay down together in bed, holding each other close with Shepard stroking Kelly's arm-

Is that suitable? Shadowdragon00000 12:11, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * See! If you had simply produced that in the first place, I'd have had no problem with it! It's not speculative, it's not characterizing her as a dancer of any sort, it's specific and to the point, and I have no objections. It doesn't claim that the dancing and cuddling is all that happens, I honestly can't see anything to object to (and believe me, the mood I'm in after that I'm looking for things to object to). And best of all, it doesn't involve me being talked down to for doing nothing more than doing my job and upholding the site policy on speculation (seeing as how of the three admins, I'm pretty much the designated speculation-buster). Huzzah for civility! SpartHawg948 12:15, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good. On a side note, it might give us enough of a text body to work with the picture of her being gooified without mucking up the page formatting.Shadowdragon00000 12:20, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Went ahead and made the edits and added some subject breaks. Please let me know if this is suitable. Shadowdragon00000 12:37, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Y'know, this is exactly the same interactions you can get with the other romance options, sans the dancing. Heck, you can cuddle with Garrus. -DarkJeff 18:41, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

-i had Kelly go to characters quarters, but never got the option to have her dance/sit next/ or lay on the bed......hell i didnt even get a cut scene to the room iteself, she simply asked if I wanted dinner and then screen went black then we were done back at her station in the CIC.....was this a possible glitch?

-Azazel2099 03:15 Feb 01, 2010
 * No, dinner is what you get before the final mission. After the final mission (..if Kelly survives) you get the message from her about calling her up to your cabin. --81.191.1.103 14:28, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

when? i finished the final missiona and i my charcter is romantically involved. when is the message sent? HAD 18:28, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure. Was flirting with Kelly throughout the game, had dinner, she fed my fish, saved her at the end... but no messages from her on the terminal. Any ideas? 58.161.12.22 01:27, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

hello?--HAD 15:05, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

same here with HAD.

played the game 3 times so far, always tried to flirt with chambers but never got the message in the computer, or any of the stuff that happens in my cabin (i DID try to go to omega and then back to the normandy - obviously after finishing the game with chambers alive)

first time fem shepard, tried to do something with garrus but cancelled it, dunno if that has something to do with it

2nd time male shep, had romance with miranda while flirting with chambers, still nothing (i didnt really expect anything because the computer to call someone up was already set for miranda)

3rd time, fem shep from an import from me1 where i had romance with liara, talked to nobody but chambers yet still nothing

All of the times, i did have dinner with her in my cabin, did save her soon from the collectors. any ideas on why the game doesnt let me see chambers dance? xD 79.107.242.50 17:18, February 11, 2010 (UTC)Kal'R79.107.242.50 17:18, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Just finished the game for the fourth time with a totally new un imported female shepard.

we flirt, she comes up for dinner, i finish the game and then nothing. this is absolutely frustrating. to think that i wouldnt have played the game more than twice if it wasnt for chambers.

i never spoke to any other of the crew members, EVER. I'm getting paranoid as to why it isnt working, currently i am thinking that it is bugged because i never had any fish for her to feed before she asked me and i always told her to feed them (because i was going to buy fish in the future). which is completely stupid. does anyone have ANY idea on why this is happening?


 * After reloading a completed game during which my character was still somewhat faithful to a distant Liara, Kelly notified her about a message on her terminal.. which was the mail linked above. Sneaky.
 * While this doesn't allow any definite statement about the triggers, it at least suggests that having a ME1 love interest's photo on the desk does not prevent the relationship with Kelly from progressing beyond dinner. --Winnetou 14:50, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

I did it! Guess that 5th time is the charm. I will post a very thorough guide on how to do it soon, since the guide here was obviously not good enough if had to do the same thing 5 times. Either that or I am stupid. 79.107.237.73 08:16, February 14, 2010 (UTC)Kal'R79.107.237.73 08:16, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

There's a lot of confusion on the extranet about how to romance yeoman kelly chambers. This is a very thorough guide in how to do it. I mean really. If you follow this guide to the end and you still haven't managed to do it, there is something wrong with you. Speaking of people mentally unstable, I should tell you that I have finished ME2 5 times, 4 of which I spent, trying to figure out how the hell to "take the sex from jelly chambers". That would suggest that romancing Kelly is quite more complex than the other crew members. It obviously is, for my case. I'm doing this guide so you don't have to do 4 playthroughs completely focused on her to find out how it works.

Before anything, a warning : This is NOT a "full" romance thing you have with Kelly. Meaning that you DONT get the romance achievement. What you get is similar to other romance options. By the way ****SPOILERS****

a)Cuddle at the couch b)Rest on the bed

What you DONT get is a cutscene with you and Kelly attempting to have censored sex (like the rest of the crew members) What EXTRA you get is Kelly dancing, with the animations from all the asari dancers you have likely encountered in the game. It should be mentioned that Kelly is wearing that same outfit that asari dancers are wearing. Also, this is available for both female and male shepard.

In order to accomplish this you must NOT have triggered any of the other romance options with the crew. Two ways of doing this, never talk to them (not sure if this works 100%) and cutting them off, meaning you talk to them enough to get their attention, and when everything is ready to tell them you want to marry them or something , BANG you tell them to sod off. For female shepard you should cock-block Jacob, Garrus and Thane, for male shepard Miranda, Jack and Tali.

Do EVERY loyalty mission. I did that, and it worked. I didn't do it in a previous playthrough and it refused to work. Feel free to do it if you are feeling lucky though. (I did only the recruiting and loyalty missions for everyone, except Legion, I never even woke him up. Only recruiting and loyalty missions = not a single side quest, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter).

Talk to her EVERY time you finish a recruiting mission. She won't have anything to say in other missions (side quests or loyalty missions).

Note: THe BioWare walkthrough can be found a few posts down here: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1110235. One thing it mentions is to ensure you do not have any active relationships with ME2 crewmen. Some players have reported they have to progress relationships with each potential love interest to the point where they can shoot them down. It may not be enough to just not talk wto them.

Enough with the prologue, lets get down to bussiness.

Act I
1) When you first board the Normandy, you should directly talk to her. Your first choice in dialog should be "The pleasure is mine"

2) After that, you should chat with her. Following the "what do you do here" option you should choose "Is that all", "So you're a councelor" and last "It's good you are here" . Following the cerberus option, choose "does cerberus hate aliens" and then "you are very loving". Following the "are you happy here option" , choose "we won't" and then "i'd embrace you". That should be enough to trigger the romance options for the rest of the game. After you've done this, go talk to someone else (jacob preferably) and then go back to Kelly.

3) She will ask you if it bothers you that she was informal, tell her you liked it.

Post-Recruitment Conversations
Note: Somewhere in either Act II or Act III Kelly will say she wished you two had time to talk more. Say "Let's have dinner". After dinner she will ask you if you want her to feed your fish. Whatever you choose may not affect the ending, but saying "Yes" is better safe than sorry.

Act II
4) After you have done the mission for Garrus, talk to her, tell her you worry about him, and the "I could use that too"

5) After you have recruited Jack, talk to Kelly, ask her "what do you mean" and then tell her you'll be carefull

6) After you have woken Grunt up talk to Kelly and tell her you'll protect her.

7) When you're back from Horizon, tell her "It went well", "That's history", and thank her.

Act III
8) After you rescue Thane (other characters may trigger this conversation too), select the choices "Maybe both", "That's not my thing".

9) After you get Samara, tell Kelly she is prettier.

10) After you rescue Tali, talk to Kelly and follow these options "I do too", "How so?", "Are you into aliens?". This is when Kelly lets you know she's bisexual.

11) After the Collector ship talk to her and say " Worried? You do care." and "What about me?"

And that should be the end of the conversations you can have throughout the game. Note that this is not necessarily the order in which they will occur as you may choose to do the missions in a different order. But don't choose differently when talking to her. Also, I haven't mentioned some occasions like, what to do after Mordin's mission, or when you get Grunt on board the Normandy because you don't even get to say anything.

Act IV
In order to complete this, you must instantly go after the Collectors after they kidnap your crew, or Kelly will die. And God will kill a lot of kittens as well. And you don't want that to happen. You also don't want Krogans to charge at you.

Obviously, while in the Collector base, send someone with the crew to get them back to Normandy. You should also make sure YOU don't die during the mission. Have Garrus/Miranda/Jacob for fire teams, Tali/Legion for the pipe thing and Samara/Jack for the biotics shield. If you do that, no one will die.

Epilogue
When you finish the game and credits roll, click continue. You should be in your cabin. Get down to the CIC and talk to Kelly for the last time. Ask her if she is okay. Then save the game and load it (quicksave is fine). Go to your computer, the infamous letter will be there. Go up to your cabin and call her up through the computer between your pc and the achievements file. Voila!

PS: Feel free to copy/paste it on whatever site I don't care what you do with it, I just want to save people from a lot of wasted time, frustation and heart attacks.

79.107.237.73 09:43, February 14, 2010 (UTC)Kal'R79.107.237.73 09:43, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Mega Thanks. HAD 17:33, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Reminder
People seem to be forgetting what these articles are and aren't for. So here's the scoop- the romance section of this article is just to point out that Kelly is a romance option, with a little extra thrown in detailing how she differs from the other options (ie not getting the Paramour achievement). It is not meant to be an insanely long step-by-step walkthrough of exactly what you need to do to romance her, complete with a ridiculously inappropriate (for an article anyways) blurb about how it was "Posted by "dusty everman" on the "Kelly's Email Never Comes" thread in the Mass Effect 2 Official Campaign Quests and Storylines (Spoilers Warning) forum on the social.bioware.com web site." That kind of crap belongs in the Forums, not in the article. Want to put the insanely long, step-by-step walkthrough here on the talk page? It's not what I'd consider ideal, but I'll allow it. Want to put it in the Forums? Great! That's what the Forums are for! Just not in the article. SpartHawg948 10:38, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

post-game if Thane dies
Not sure how to address this in her article. But if Thane dies in the final mission and Kelly is recovered, alive and Sheppard returns to the Normandy after the credits an interesting discussion occurs;

When Sheppard talks to Kelly under those conditions, she has a "perfect memory" moment exactly as Thane does. One can only speculate if that would play into Mass Effect 3 and what exactly is means (did Thane's soul jump into her body?).

Thane lived in my game and she still had a "memory moment".

Hrm, interesting. Wonder what it means then. TrackZero 17:46, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

It's probably just showing how the traumatic memory has scarred her. Something like that would be a flashbulb memory in real life, so it probably does that to show how vividly she remembers it, especially so close to the event. So, it's meant to have the same effect as Thane's memories, but I'd believe that'd be it. Berychance 05:53, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Makes more sense than what I thought. When it happen on mine, I thought she was half Drell or something. ZuZu 13:42, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Her recollection of being trapped happens regardless of whether Thane is dead or alive by the end of the mission. As Berychance said, it's just the traumatic experience affecting how she remembers it and talks about it. I was reminded about Thane's own recollection when she did that, though. Maybe it does hold significance.Tecni 18:33, January 31, 2010 (UT

It's established earlier in the game that Collector tech can make people's minds interact and overlap. Don't you remember the two guys who both remembered the same woman as their wife? So, Kelly spent some time on a Collector vessel... she must have picked up some of that somehow. Not sure how it ties in with Thane, since he wasn't trapped with her. 76.119.233.83 06:47, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to be picky here, but that wasn't actually collector tech - that was the husk of a "dead" Reaper. I say "dead" because it was pointed out that the thing was actually more in a sleep-state than dead, so the indoctrination process was still working. Could be kinda the same thing, though, since Collectors are nothing more than Protheans twisted and controlled by the Reapers, but still, I'm a stickler for details. Vund223 15:29, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe not through Thane, but any such fused memory could have caused her to have some sort of Thane-like overload. Maybe Lilith? DM Khalas 17:16, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Its not only if thane dies ive had it happen shen miranda died for me and she was the only one i even went back and checked thane is still in room staring at his window.

Fish-feeding?
I seem to recall one of the dev diaries noting that she can feed your fish. That make it into the game proper? - 149.156.96.15 08:35, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * She does at one point offer to feed your fish for you, but when you go to your quarters the feed the fish option is still there, so even though she had said she was going to do it, I kept feeding them myself, too. Better safe than sorry! SpartHawg948 08:57, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any idea how to make her do that offer? - 149.156.96.15 10:03, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're in luck! I actually just had it come up again on my second playthrough. If you've been using some of the slightly flirtier responses with her, then sometime while doing the second round of recruiting (ie when you are recruiting Tali, Thane and Samara) she will say she'd like to get to know you better. You then have the option of inviting her to your quarters for dinner. After this, she will say that she noticed the fish tank, and is wondering if you would like for her to feed your fish. And that's it in a nutshell! SpartHawg948 10:43, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I never had my fish die after she offered to feed them. It's not at all conclusive, I lost one tank before that conversation and then none after Steviesteveo 00:50, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

She said she would "feed them while you were away". So, I'm assuming while on missions she does it. I told her to and none of mhy fish died. --69.40.27.58 15:08, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Voice actress
Anyone know who her voice actress is? IMDB isn't any help. 97.92.89.95 01:04, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess she isn't significant enough of a character to specify in any cast list, which is annoying. I'm going to guess that it is Courtenay Taylor, the actress who voices Jack. The accents are very similar as far as I can tell, and she is also listed as doing additional voices. There is no way to tell who could have voiced her from the rest of the cast list since no specific characters are named in it. --ArmeniusLOD 18:04, February 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * As far as I know? Cara Pifko is Kelly Chamber's Voice Actress; I am still looking for the thread where Dusty Everman said that... may just have to send a message to him and hope he has the url. lol


 * Jax Sparrow 16:57, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Does "romancing" Kelly count as cheating on your ME1 romantic interest?
If seems she is a bit of an mystery when it comes to the significance of romancing her. I'm playing with an imported character that had romanced Kaiden but have been flirting with Kelly, after I had her up to my cabin for dinner I got +5 renegade as well as +5 paragon, of course Kaiden's picture is still upright on my desk but the +5 renegade is interesting.
 * Yeah, I invited her up as well, and got the same thing - not too sure about that. But as long as the picture is upright when you go into the final mission (so you get the cutscene involving it), it counts as staying faithful. Vund223 18:22, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I wonder if we can confirm that you don't get the renegade points for having dinner with her if you aren't in a relationship otherwise, probably worth adding to the article for people (like me) who are obsessive about such things Raitchison 22:26, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * See, I wondered that too. Maybe someone who started a brand new character for ME2 can clarify. Vund223 22:34, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * My character romanced Liara and had dinner with Kelly, but I didn't gain any Renegade points for doing so. Mickey711 20:32, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * OK Even stranger, new character with obviously no romantic interests and I still got +5 renegade for having dinner with Kelly. I wonder if it has to do with your responses when Kelly asks you about your relationship with your former crewmate (Ashley or Kaiden) after the encounter on Horizon. In my case I responded that my relationship with Ashley was "in the past" because the other responses got me Renegade points. Raitchison 22:58, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

I had the same question, since I've got the renegade points too. Shows how many of us are after her in Ashley/Kaidan/Liara's back... *shame* DM Khalas 20:24, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * How long after the suicide mission will she send you the message? I just finished it, and I ignored all romantic interests and was nice to her the whole time, so when will she let me call her up?--CT-5619 helmet comlink 16:56, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Kelly is not the one being liquefied
Please, can anyone edit that part of the Wiki page for Kelly?

Kelly Chambers is not the woman who is getting liquefied at the Collectors base during the Suicide Mission, it's just some random crew member or perhaps even some random colonist from earlier abductions on other human colonies. I've just beat the game for a second time, I saved every one, and that woman we see in the picture being liquefied is clearly not Kelly, because after she dies we see Kelly being rescued from one of those Collector "cocoons", she stands up and then comments to Shepard on her appreciation for having come for them to save them. Additionally Kelly Chambers has a different hair cut than that woman in the picture. I'm not sure how to edit the Wiki page for Kelly and I don't want to make any mistakes in trying it, so please can anyone else do it? It's not Kelly!

EDIT: My mistake, ok it wasn't Kelly because I went to save them immediately and did not wait. I wasn't aware that if we wait before doing the Suicide Mission then Kelly is the one being liquefied instead of Lilith. My apologies everyone.

On the subject of Kelly dying/not dying: I actually chose to wait and prepare my team, but since I had already completed all of the assignments I could find that basically amounted to mining for a while and picking up whatever upgrades at Ilium/the Citadel I could afford. I still managed to get to Kelly and the other Normandy crew members and save them in time. It might be a glitch, but maybe the "Kelly gets liquefied" ending occurs as a result of choosing to stay and prepare, then completing at least one mission/assignment before going through the relay? 70.230.202.240 20:11, February 10, 2010 (UTC)columnFive
 * Right. If it's something that gives you the Mission Complete screen, then Kelly and the others will die. For instance, if while mining you'd come across an anomaly planet and chose to land and investigate, you would lose Kelly. Vund223 22:12, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Section order
Am I the only one who thinks the Romance section should be before the Death section? Otherwise here on this work computer, on 1280x1024 resolution, I see a gruesome picture of her death at the lower right corner of the screen before my eyes even catch the spoiler warning. I mean, everybody should know she's a "romance option", but not everyone may know she dies. I just mean the bigger spoiler should be further down on the page. -DarkJeff 15:25, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. I always have found it a bit strange that you read about how she dies before you read about how to romance her. Vund223 15:33, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. -DarkJeff 16:38, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Not saving Kelly
I am on my 3rd run through - Insanity now. I've tried doing Legion's loyalty mission directly after recruiting him, and going straight on the suicide mission thereafter (without scanning, or landing, on any planets). Kelly gets liquified. I think you have to go straight on the suicide mission as soon as the opportunity presents itself. EDIT: If the crew has been taken by the Collectors and you do Legion's loyalty mission, Kelly is liquified. If you do Legion's loyalty mission before the crew has been adbucted by the Collectors, then she is saved. I think it was just in the timing - loaded a save and I really can't see what I did differently but this time I was able to complete Legion's loyalty mission before abduction and it worked. FlatspinZA 02:14, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Really? I've been doing Legion's quest after Abduction, and it was never Kelly. Only Lilith from Horizon. --69.40.27.58 15:11, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Simple tip to avoid that.

DO NOT DO THE REAPER IFF MISSION.

I never do it until i have completed all side missions and all loyalty quests.

( I always lose Miranda's loyalty but on casual its simple to still lose none of my team if the others r all loyal and u use them properly. )

Only do the IFF mission when your ready for the suicide run..

Varren Scale Itch and Lilith
Is it true that Kelly brought the Varren Scale itch onboard the normandy? The STD Mordin was talking about..

Also, how can you save Lilith?
 * To the first question, I haven't seen anything to indicate that's true. And to the second, I don't believe it's possible to save Lilith, considering that if you arrive on time, she dies, and if you arrive too late, she's probably already dead. Sorry, Lilith appears to be doomed no matter what. Vund223 17:34, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you wait long enough so that the entire crew dies, except for Dr. Chakwas, you'll save some colonists. I don't remember if one of them was Lilith. &mdash;Seburo 17:41, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. I based it off the assumption that the processing queue is the same no matter what you do. When you arrive in time to save the crew, it's currently Lilith's turn, with the Normandy crew on deck, starting with Kelly and ending with Dr. Chakwas. When you arrive too late, it's already moved through the queue, so that Kelly (and others, including Lilith, who was in line in front of the crew) are being/have been processed. Just my thought process. Vund223 17:51, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Kelly et al saved despite delay
I've read here and elsewhere that if you do any missions other than Legion's loyalty mission, Kelly and the rest of the crew will die. However, I did loads of stuff, including 'Illium: Liara: The Observer' and 'N7: Imminent Ship Crash' after recruiting Legion, and I found everyone alive and got them back to the ship.


 * It is possible to delay the installation of the Reaper IFF that trigers the endgame timer. If you manage to get Legion's loyalty mission before accessing the galaxy map again, then the instalation is delayed. Unknown how long though. Lancer1289 March 4, 2010 14:55 (UTC)


 * I seem to remember that a consensus was reached somewhere that finishing Legion's loyalty quest is what triggers the abduction. I may be wrong though, and I can't remember what article that was discussed on. Vund223 15:45, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

To clarify: I did the above two missions after the IFF was fitted and the crew was abducted and yet they all still survived. Am I the only one this has happened to?


 * Ah, so you did stuff after everyone was taken. Well, based on discussions on other related topics, you're not the only one, but reports of successful rescues despite delaying are rare. Vund223 18:05, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Sad face
I messed up my ordering and got her killed on my second play through D: One of my favourite characters. Laexio 08:14, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Choices that matters
I've found something interesting: what really matters talking to Kelly is when she express fear and you say you'll protect her (after Grunt and Jack missions), when she express feelings about you (after the Collector ship) and when you praise her (the second time you talk to her and after Samara mission). I think the decisive talk is after Thane's mission, when you say that bad boys is not your thing.

I always did the steps mentioned in the walktrough, but reply that "dangerous men fits me", after doing Thane's mission. When I changed this line, I've received the e-mail from Kelly.

Also I discovered that doesn't matter if you are in a romance with someone, I was playing as a female Shepard and dating Garrus, I still received the e-mail after the Collector base. And you don't need always reply nice to her, in the first time I said that she was naive, Cerberus is shit and other things, I still got her message in the end. Brfritos 01:53, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

I love how
Certain lines of text that's been in articles for months are left untouched, even after having been visited by moderators on more than one occasion, and yet aren't rolled back to when I make an edit to it. Instead, it gets completely deleted. LOL

Shadowdragon00000
 * You have to realize that there are only three of us. Three admins (not sure why people keep referring to us as moderators, we're administrators, but I digress...) for 1,701 articles. We can't be in all places at all times seeing everything and all edits. You have to expect that sometimes, there will be little inaccuracies and bits of speculative nonsense that we miss, and oft times, it takes a further edit to said areas before an admin happens to notice and take care of it. These things happen when you have 567 articles for every one admin (and that only counts regular articles. It's much more when you factor in the forum, talk pages, and user and user talk pages, of which we have some limited oversight). SpartHawg948 07:12, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh-huh.
 * Uh-huh.


 * As an example, you deleted the header of the picture that said "Kelly being liquefied into a paste" just because you dislike me, and you know it. And don't chalk this one up to speculation, because it was even disclosed in the game that the people were being liquefied into a paste.
 * GG, GG
 * Shadowdragon00000
 * No, as I stated, it's because 'paste' is an inaccurate descriptor. Look at the definitions for the word paste, and find me one that accurately describes the substance that Miss Chambers was 'liquefied' into. Your ego may dictate you seeing this as a me vs you thing, but it isn't. I'm applying the same standard I do with any other editor here. Sorry, but contrary to what your mommy told you, you aren't special. At least not in my book. I treat everyone equally under the rules this site is governed by. SpartHawg948 07:19, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know it may be hard for a dog of the military, but use your brain.
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si_P8BypaUk
 * Chakwas said it herself, people were processed into a raw genetic paste at 1:45.
 * Who's the one with the ego?
 * Shadowdragon00000
 * A dog of the military? I am no Military Working Dog, sir, and I'd remind you of the policy against insulting other users. Dev statements on this very site confirm that dialogue from characters who have no real way of knowing (ie, based off cursory observation, such as Chakwas' comment, as she hadn't had any contact with the substance or chance to study it, she was merely making a quick visual observation) is unreliable, and shouldn't be taken as hard evidence, especially when it jives with fact, such as the fact that no definition of 'paste' meshes with what we see happen to Chambers. SpartHawg948 07:25, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * "and I'd remind you of the policy against insulting other users."
 * Says the one who dealt the first blow, LOL!
 * Shadowdragon00000
 * "So you don't want the link that would settle this matter? Odd. Well, insults and jibes aside, this is now an edit war, which is a bannable offense. I don't think I'm tough anything, just stating facts"
 * Then, if it's not a matter of you vs me, and you actually care enough ( which I doubt you do ), then take your sweet and precious time to remove all the other portions in other articles that mention how the humans were rendered down into a genetic paste.
 * Shadowdragon00000
 * A couple of things- 1) Dealt the first blow? How, pray tell? I did make a comment about you not being special, but making a statement supporting the idea of equal treatment under the law is hardly an insult. Or was there something else? If so, please let me know so I can make amends. 2) Which other articles mention the paste bit? I'll happily make the edits myself. I'm fine with them noting that people are liquified into what Chakwas refers to as a paste (as long as it's noted that this conclusion was reached via a cursory examination on her part), but it should not be stated as an empirical fact, you are correct on that point. SpartHawg948 07:35, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then, if it's not a matter of you vs me, and you actually care enough ( which I doubt you do ), then take your sweet and precious time to remove all the other portions in other articles that mention how the humans were rendered down into a genetic paste.
 * Shadowdragon00000
 * A couple of things- 1) Dealt the first blow? How, pray tell? I did make a comment about you not being special, but making a statement supporting the idea of equal treatment under the law is hardly an insult. Or was there something else? If so, please let me know so I can make amends. 2) Which other articles mention the paste bit? I'll happily make the edits myself. I'm fine with them noting that people are liquified into what Chakwas refers to as a paste (as long as it's noted that this conclusion was reached via a cursory examination on her part), but it should not be stated as an empirical fact, you are correct on that point. SpartHawg948 07:35, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * A couple of things- 1) Dealt the first blow? How, pray tell? I did make a comment about you not being special, but making a statement supporting the idea of equal treatment under the law is hardly an insult. Or was there something else? If so, please let me know so I can make amends. 2) Which other articles mention the paste bit? I'll happily make the edits myself. I'm fine with them noting that people are liquified into what Chakwas refers to as a paste (as long as it's noted that this conclusion was reached via a cursory examination on her part), but it should not be stated as an empirical fact, you are correct on that point. SpartHawg948 07:35, May 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * You need to calm down Shadow. It's not a big deal. SpartHawg uses the same rules with everyone as he does with you. It's not a You vs. Him thing. He's just trying to uphold th rules. --Effectofthemassvariety 07:48, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's very much a "him vs me" thing, especially when all he does is single me out. Whatever, I'm done with this Wiki. It's obvious that I'm not welcome here. 70.114.235.219 14:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * And you are? This is the first time that your IP has contributed, so it's doubtful I've singled you out. Regardless, (assuming that this is Shadowdragonsomezeroes) I have not treated you any differently than I do other users. In fact, there are other users who could make the case that they received it worse than you have and then (and here's the big difference) were able to knock the chip off their shoulders and become productive members that I work side by side with. The only thing holding you back is you. Don't believe me? Ask ralok how well we used to get along vs how well we get along now. The only thing that changed was that he was willing to stop playing the me vs you games and grow up. And that made all the difference from problem user to productive editor. It's all about attitude, and you are the only one who can change that. SpartHawg948 16:38, May 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ugh! I honestly think he's beyond help. He listens to no logic or reasoning at all. It's obvious that this "rivalry" is very one sided, considering he refuses to even imagine that your anything less than a sadistic admin who wants him gone.--Effectofthemassvariety 16:46, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Ah the things you miss while you sleep. From what I can read, I completly agree with Spart and Effectofthemassvariety, Shadowdragon can't seem to argue his point. Oh well, I would have had some more things to say, but I fell asleep. Oh well. Lancer1289 17:25, May 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't argue my point? I didn't know that someone ignoring me after being asked to present supporting evidence is a failure on my behalf. Point is, I -have- argued my point numerous times. It's pretty obvious that someone doesn't want me here when he or she doesn't take the time to address factual evidence brought here by someone other than himself. Shadowdragon00000 22:00, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Really because all I saw was you aruging for speculation, and being dismissed by several users. Your edits were pure speculation becuase we know she is liquified into a paste, but you were arguing for a biometal. We know that it is a paste but nothing else about it. You seem to think that Spart was gunning for you, but he is quite fair and objective. Lancer1289 22:05, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, what we were discussing was humans being liquefied into genetic paste, which Spart claims that the term "paste" was too vague to be posted on the wiki. Both you and I agree that Lilith/Kelly was rendered down into paste, but Spart does not. Regardless, that's a moot point and far from the basis that this issue arised. The issue arised when it became obvious that it's easier for Spart to threaten me with the ban hammer, claiming that I'm a villain, than it is for him to read the supporting evidence I have brought to the table ( in regards to both speculative and non-speculative postings, all of which were removed ). A prime example ( gee, how many times to I have to say this for someone to get the hint ) is the Theory/Fact table on my talk page, which Spart asked I present to him, but blatantly ignored by failure to address the information brought to him. As another example, he denies Kelly to be an exotic dancer ( even after being handed the facts ), despite it being blaringly obvious that she is. Should I go on? Shadowdragon00000 22:23, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Spart says on your talk page that Chakwas says it a paste and from the history, if you had added that, he would have been fine with it as long as you said it was from Chakwas's POV. Also where does it say Kelly is an exotic dancer, yes her outift is like that after the romance, but no where does it mention she is an exotic dancer. Also you were the first one to throw around an insult, calling Spart a military dog. Spart never throws the first blow, and this time, like every other, the person arguing with Spart throws the first name and then, every time without fail, they say Spart called them a name first. SO he as every right to "treaten with the ban hammer" becuase insulting other users is against policy. This argument about name calling comes up every time, and as I already said, without fail, the person arguing throws the first name, then says that "the power hungary admin", did. You throw the first name, so get your facts staright. Lancer1289 22:35, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, if you read his comments, Spart said that "paste" is an inaccurate observation made by a single character within the game, which was his justification behind removing the "Liquefied into a paste" line from the very picture I uploaded. Second, the outfit that Kelly wore is the same outfit that the exotic dancers in Chora's Den and Omega wear, which is further supported by the fact that they're dancing on poles, looking for tips, showing off their body in a manner that some women members of your crew object to, and have even made comments towards being mistaken for prostitutes/strippers. Furthermore, if you want to look at throwing insults, then you should take the time to familiarize yourself with Sparts condescending attitude and statement towards me, which is where I delt the second blow. Yes, he may not have thrown an obvious insult at me, but that doesn't mean that he hasn't offended me with his comments towards me. The fact that he doesn't even read what I'm bothering to bring to him doesn't help my image of him either. Shadowdragon00000 22:50, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Really, All I see is Spart talking, and then you calling him a "millitary dog" before after he says jsut two things. And visual comparisons are not the basis for a comparison. I do not know how many times I have shot down, or for that matter everyone else, trivia and other things based on a visual comparion. It isn't enough and Spart as a solid base for that one, you don't. Lancer1289 23:46, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Shadow Dragon. Please. Stop. It's good that you want to edit here on this wiki and make contributions, but you just gotta listen to the rules. All the facts point against you, and what you wanted in the article "paste", I believe, was already included! If you wanna edit here, great. Do your best. But if all you're gonna do is start flame wars against other users who has been around much longer than you have, have much more authority, and are by far more experienced users, then it actually would be best if you leave. All internet fights do is make you look like an ass. Please, just stop, follow the rules, and be a good user. If you can't do those simple things, then I don't know what you should do. The Yoshiman 97 00:18, May 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, "paste" was what Spart insisted be removed without clarification that it was an "observational quality" made by Chakwas, which I find to be quite silly. Also, I find it increasingly difficult to edit here when everything I say gets shot down instead of being refined into something that Spart would be considered acceptable...Shadowdragon00000 00:44, May 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * IT WAS AN OBSERVATION!!! Besides, wasn't this issue settled already. didn't you get what you wanted Shadow? Ugh! I honestly think that no matter what any of us say to him he just won't quit, and take it gracefully.--Effectofthemassvariety 00:55, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because he can't take it gracefully becuase everyone else has it out for him. ALso I think he just likes to argue, see his talk page, especially read over the section where you already commented Effectof about Reaper speculation. (Sorry your user name is long). Lancer1289 00:59, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sometimes I regret making it so long. I gotta think of an effective nickname. Maybe "Mass" or something like that... but I digress. I honestly think that that is the only reason. He's too stubborn to admit that he isn't always right. Also, he honestly thinks that Spart wants him gone, when Spart himself has warned him numerous times. If he is just out to get Shadow, why didn't he just ban him after the edit war? Hmm, I wonder...--Effectofthemassvariety 01:06, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * How about Effect? Anyway usually Spart would have alreay banned him for edit waring by now, but he just wants to get his point across. However Shadow just wants to argue and by now he isn't making any sence. He has a history of arguing and maybe a ban would get him to listen, or at least think about it for a while. Lancer1289 01:10, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Besides, if it were Mass, everyone would be confused. The only thing a ban would do is get him off the wiki, which is what we all want, right? MUAHAHAHAHAHA!! Kidding. I doubt that even a ban would get his attention, it'd just reinforce every egotistical thought that he is being persecuted. But, then again, who cares. He's already so self-assured.--Effectofthemassvariety 01:17, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed a ban would just confirm his suspisions but yes is is very self-assured that he is right even though he is wrong, even though he won't admit it. Lancer1289 01:28, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * You guys say that I'm wrong, yet nothing is brought to the front to counter what I bring to the table. Instead, brick walls are thrown up in refusal to accept any supporting statements. Your argument would be valid if you actually had anything to counter with other than "you're wrong" comments and condescending statements. If you want to look credible, then take the time to contribute to the discussion. Shadowdragon00000 01:33, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * SAnd you just reinforced our point. You got paste into the article, with some modification. But every other argument you have breought to the table is nothing but specualtion, and in that case the burden of proof if on you to provide some evidence. THere are a lot of other possible explanations for every other argument and your refusal to accept these other theories makes you arrogant. Keelly is not an exotic dancer, there are other explanations for the orange liquid, there are other explanations for the steam in the collector base, and finally you just like to argue every point. You think that you are always right and everyone else is wrong. Most of what you added was nothing but unfounded speculation. You need to come down a few steps and reexamine your argument before you start talking about things you are wrong about, and the only evidence that you provide is even more specualtion. Lancer1289 01:40, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

If you're so convinced that it's only speculation, then how could I be right or wrong if there hasn't been any official disclosure on it? Shadowdragon00000 01:45, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess my point-by-point rundown of his arguments doesn't count. It must have been nothing but refusing to accept what he said, throwing up brick walls, and being condescending and just saying he's wrong. Especially the part where I pointed out that 2 of his 4 theories are based on circular logic, which as we all know, doesn't fly. That's called bad, bad, really bad, horribly bad science. But hey, if he doesn't acknowledge it, then in his own world, it doesn't exist. To answer the question I know you are all wondering, I'd like to avoid a ban, as it would just reinforce bad behavior and nutty conspiracy theories, and as he hasn't blatantly violated any rules since being warned by me. Being argumentative and refusing to see reason isn't bannable, no matter how annoying it may be. SpartHawg948 01:47, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * If there hasn't been any official disclosure on it, then it is considered wrong until it is proven right.--Effectofthemassvariety 01:50, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I am wondering what he is talking about at this point, because his last post didn't make any sence. Also unless there is something official, it is specualtion and wrong. That's the rule, don't like it, leave. Lancer1289 01:52, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

I think the compromise has been arrived at here. The current caption says "Kelly being liquefied into what Chakwas describes as paste" which is as good as it gets. The game does not say anywhere about that substance. In a truly scientific tradition, a single statement is still speculation (or, to put it mildly, a speculative theory) unless experimented upon. Then the statement becomes a scientific theory. But only after that data are corroborated by other experiments, we can say that it's a fact. Take dark energy and dark matter for example. As for now, they are only mathematical model (i.e. speculation). They must exist if the current model of the universe is to hold. But, being unobservable (thus "dark"), one has yet to PROVE that dark energy and dark matter really exist. The current strongest candidate for that proof is neutrino. But we would have to wait several years for a confirmation. So, IMHO, what Chakwas says is NOT a fact. It's just a statement. And must be treated as such. I don't blame Shadow for his defending his edit, though. The scientific community itself often presents speculations as scientific theories, inflated egos and self promotions are everywhere... but I digress (I like this phrase). The bottom line is: let's stick to the canon of the game. If it is canon, it's fact. If it isn't, it may be a speculation, or it may be incorrect. Braveangel 08:30, May 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * The word "paste" means nothing more than a thick or vicious liquid, which could consist of many different kinds of mixture such as doughs, plastics, metals, and even organic elements. It's used to describe a characteristic of compounds, primarily thick and smooth substances. Chakwas used the word as a descriptive characteristic, not as a scientific observation. Shadowdragon00000 10:45, May 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * By the way, I changed the caption for both images as I felt it was too wordy as a caption. I shifted the whole "paste" thing into the article. Teugene 10:59, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

I took a long hard look into this, then I realize where the problem lies. It's the source of what we call "canon". Because in the world of fictions, canons are facts. Our problem lies largely in how we define what's canon. Spart, Effect, and Lancer: can you explain why Chakwas' statement is less "fact" than Jack's statement that she has crashed a space station onto a moon? Chakwas' statement is not acceptable as facts because she's the only one that says so. We have no evidence that Chakwas can not make an acurate observation. So, Sprat's statement that Chakwas' observation is inacurate is also a speculation. We simply do not have the means to measure Chakwas' accuracy of her account. That is also the case with Jack's statement. There is no other evidence that she has in fact crashed that space station. Yet, this is represented as a fact in Jack's page. As far as we know, characters in-game have been known to lie, misdirect or otherwise supply false info. TIM is the most famous of this kind of scoundrels. Warden Kuril brags of his principal in running the Purgatory, yet events show that this is not the case. How do we know that Jack doesn't just make it up? If we want full consistency, "upholding the rules", we should also present Jack's case as "Jack admits that she has once crashed a space station." Not just "Jack has crashed a space station."

On the other hand, loosen up, Shadow. We do this for fun. Inconsistencies are everywhere. And some decisions are made by consensus. So, you're idea, no matter how logic, can be voted down. Now, this is a fact of life. There are some pages here that I can break using the rules themselves. But what's the point? I simply have more important things to do. So, when compromises are made, even when it's not up to my standards, I let go. Let's play together and let everyone have some fun. Braveangel 12:21, May 14, 2010 (UTC) (And by the way, it's VISCOUS, not VICIOUS :D)
 * Very well- here's the explanation. The dev comments I have referred to deal with comments made by characters about things that they haven't personally experienced or have factual, first-hand knowledge of. In Chakwas' case, she took a quick look at the substance that people were being liquefied into, and called it an organic paste. She didn't actually know the nature of the material, it's composition (as there may very well have been additives, etc), it's intended use, it's chemical breakdown, it's viscosity, etc. She was just making a quick observation, let's call it an educated guess. As far as Jack, again, the dev comment warns against taking comments made by characters about things they don't have any real way of knowing at face value. It doesn't say anything about not believing comments made about first-hand experiences simply due to lack of supporting evidence. On the one hand, Chakwas makes an educated guess that people are being liquefied into 'organic paste' without knowing for sure. On the other hand, Jack says she crashed a space station into a moon. Hardly analogous situations, and only one of which would be suspect under the devconfirmed 'characters sometimes say inaccurate things due to lack of information' clause, as firsthand experience has never been shown to be suspect. SpartHawg948 19:04, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Generally speaking, the word "paste" is a characteristic; it's used to describe something. It's fairly easy to tell if something is pasty or not just by looking at it, so much in fact that it's almost a visual quality ( as well as tangible quality ). If you open a can of thick tomato sauce and pour it, you can see that it's pasty. You can take thermal compound and apply it ( to whatever ) and see that it's pasty. Using the word "paste" to describe the viscosity of the object or substance in question is the same as saying "blue is a cool color while red is a warm color". In short, characteristic qualities ( such as being paste-like ) doesn't need to be scientifically measured to be proven as fact. As far as "genetic" paste goes, the "genetic" portion of that statement could be chalked up to speculation based off Chakwas' observation alone since, as you just said, we have no way of confirming that ( at least on a visual level ). Shadowdragon00000 01:22, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, by your own admission, the phrase 'genetic paste' is speculative? That's what I've been saying all along. The paste bit is still subjective, as a substance can appear pasty to one, but not to another unless it's really, indisputably paste (the definition of paste you describe is, more fully, a thick and viscous substance that still has the ability to flow and does not retain its shape when released from a container, and Chakwas was not able to discern whether all these characteristics were present), but I'll admit, the paste bit may have been acceptable on its own, although it is still open to some debate, but the nature of the paste is undoubtedly speculation. Saying it's an organic paste, or a bio-metallic paste, or anything of that nature is speculation on the part of the Doctor. This is why the article is phrased the way it is now, and why (hopefully) we'll all be moving on past this. SpartHawg948 01:46, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

By my own admission, "genetic" could be viewed as speculation ( despite the human reaper giving off organic signatures ), but not necessarily the whole phrase. Though I don't believe that a physical trait ( such as being thick/pasty ) could even be subject to speculation, since it's either thick/pasty, or it's not. Shadowdragon00000 02:16, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * But again, what comprises thick and pasty? It's subjective. It's not like there are visual guides out there with nice illustrations and diagrams and whatnot going 'this is pasty, this is not. While this substance may appear thick and viscous, it isn't pasty', and so forth. It's subjective. Open to interpretation and opinion, which is one of the many reasons that this sort of dialogue is less than ideal as far as authentication is concerned. SpartHawg948 03:04, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is a suggestion, how about we just put it back to "Kelly being liquified" like it was before this argument. Because if we are going to argue about whether it is a paste or not, then how about we just remove it all together. If we are going to argue about whether it is paste or not, and its defination, then why don't we just remove it? Lancer1289 03:10, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or here is anohter suggestion, how about we just leave it as it is. I didn't see the change. Also as another suggestion, how about removing the thumbnail altogether? Just throwing ideas around here. Lancer1289 03:12, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

@Spart - Generally, if the liquid isn't runny like water, then most people refer to it as being thick or pasty. Like I said before, a tomato sauce is pasty ( there's even brands out there that market it as tomato paste ), as is thermal compund ( aka - thermal paste ). These are relevant examples to the dictionary link you sent me earlier on in our argument, which defines it as a a semi-solid substance that's creamy, and soft enough to flow slowly while being unable to retain it's shape. @Lancer - Or we could leave the thumbnail intact with the description that was used earlier as a means of compromise between those who agree and disagree with said physical trait. Shadowdragon00000 03:14, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or, and I know this will sound crazy: we could leave it just the way it is. A thumbnail with a caption saying that Kelly 'suffers a gruesome death'. What part of that isn't true? She's clearly suffering, clearly dying, and the process is pretty gruesome. I know, the status quo is pretty crazy, but just a suggestion, one that keeps it 100% accurate and speculation-free. SpartHawg948 03:21, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed with the current caption. It is accurate, contains no speculation, and is actually better than the original. Again the only reason I suggested the original text is becuase I didn't notice the change. Again leaving it as it is is probably the best solution. Lancer1289 03:26, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Yup. Spart has shown what's cannon. But we can make compromises. And the current wording is as good a compromise as it goes. IMHO. --Braveangel 03:47, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * In case anyone missed my earlier explanation, I changed the caption because it was way too wordy, but the paste description has been merged in the article instead. Hopefully that would make everyone happy. Teugene 08:11, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

No objections here! I like it. SpartHawg948 08:14, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Wait a minute, if there are only 3 admins, whose the Bureaucrat? Mau5killer 08:18, May 15, 2010 (UTC)Mau5killer
 * There is a Bureaucrat who started the site, and was the one who made me an admin, but he hasn't contributed in ages (he has three edits this year, one last year, and none for 2008, and only 153 edits total) and hasn't responded the last couple of times I've tried to reach him via email and whatnot. For anything above the capacity of an admin to accomplish, we contact wikia staff, usually JoePlay. SpartHawg948 09:13, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

"What part of that isn't true? She's clearly suffering, clearly dying, and the process is pretty gruesome". Her suffering is an observational quality that could be chalked up to speculation. We don't actually know if she's in pain or not. For all we know, she could merely be crying out in fear and shock more than anything else. Shadowdragon00000 09:31, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * In that case, clearly the only acceptable alternative is to remove the caption entirely, and remove the thumbnail. Thanks for suggesting it, Shadowdragonsomezeroes. SpartHawg948 09:33, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Or we could just leave it at "Kelly being liquefied" or "Kelly being liquefied into what Chakwas described as paste", like how it was before it was changed to the "Kelly suffering a gruesome death" caption. Shadowdragon00000 09:39, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, as Lancer addressed above (or maybe it was in the edit summary, although I think it was here), the 'Kelly being liquefied into what Chakwas'... was pretty damn long for a thumbnail caption, and the caption has already been removed. Personally, I was all for Teugene's compromise, but I guess you weren't, so whatever. So much for compromise. SpartHawg948 09:43, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Then we could leave it at "Kelly being liquefied". Or is that too long and too speculative as well? Also, yes I'm for compromise. I'm just pointing out the obvious flaw in your statement, which is more of a speculative observation than using thick or paste to describe the viscosity of the liquid. Shadowdragon00000 09:45, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no objections to that caption, although it may also be a bit too speculative. Because, really the only source we have for the liquefied bit is Chakwas, right? And if the bit about it not being painful is speculative, then this must be as well. It really looks more like she's being immolated, or dissolved. So maybe it is too speculative. (Hey, if you want to argue that painful is speculative, as 'she could merely be crying out in fear and shock', then I'm going to argue something equally ludicrous here! After all, I'm just pointing out the obvious flaw in your statement here.) SpartHawg948 09:51, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that Chakwas knows how to identify the difference between a solid and non-solid substance. And you can verify that the person was ultimately turned into a liquid by shooting the H-Reaper's injection tubes. Now you're just being spiteful, Spart. Also, in regards to the "immolated", if you play the 360 version then neither Kelly nor Lilith end up looking like tomato sauce in human shape, they just get glossy and wet looking. Shadowdragon00000 09:58, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * 'Ultimately' being the operative word. At what point, however? And, just as Doctor Chakwas is sure to know how to identify the differences between solid and liquid matter, most people surely know how to tell the difference between someone crying out in pain, and just crying out of fear and shock. It's no more spiteful than your similarly inane objection to the compromise Teugene proposed. SpartHawg948 09:58, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Have you ever broken an arm? I have, and so has my brother. Neither of us cried out because of pain, because frankly, it didn't hurt. We cried out because of shock. Just because a person is screaming doesn't automatically mean that they're in pain. Shadowdragon00000 10:00, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * But it's fairly easy to spot the difference between a pained cry and a shocked cry. As a, what was it you called me, a 'dog of the military', I can speak from fairly voluminous experience on this one. SpartHawg948 10:02, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

So, are we going to continue to argue over this? Or are we going to repost the factual caption of "Kelly being liquefied", which has yet to be shot down by anyone? Shadowdragon00000 10:05, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I did shoot it down, actually, and you have yet to respond to it other than by calling me mean. However, the article does state that Kelly was 'dissolved', which (given the presence of what appears to be fluid moving through the tank) would appear to be more accurate than liquefied, I could live with that. SpartHawg948 10:07, May 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sheeesssh Shadowdragonzeros, "Kelly suffers a gruesome death." is speculation??? When I word it as such, I'm not implying she's in pain. To quote "suffers":


 * 1. To undergo or sustain (something painful, injurious, or unpleasant): "Ordinary men have always had to suffer the history their leaders were making" (Herbert J. Muller).
 * 2. To experience; undergo: suffer a change in staff.
 * 3. To endure or bear;


 * And "gruesome", which as you described as "shocking":


 * Causing horror and repugnance; frightful and shocking.


 * Isn't that clear enough and non-speculative from the caption I inserted? Or do you want me to word it as such "Kelly undergoes a shocking death" or "Kelly experiencing a dissolving death" - which simply means the same thing? And frankly speaking, all this nonsense is wearing my patience thin. Teugene 10:36, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

I never shot down your caption, per-se, I was commenting on Spart's description of Kelly's death. Though if you wanted to get technical, what one considers as being gruesome may be different from a different person. And depending on what version of the game you play, Kelly either turns all bloody ( for lack of a better word ) or she doesn't. See http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/File:Kelly_Melt_-_360.jpg And who's to say the scene in the PC version is more ( or less ) cannon than the 360 version? Regardless, since Spart removed your caption, I'd see that as an absolute decision. IMO, it's best to leave it at the caption he decided, for various reasons. Shadowdragon00000 10:53, May 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * As I play the PC version, I'm not aware of the "non-gruesome" version of the XBox and the omission could be for technical reasons. Anyhow, whatever the description may be (and I'm fine with either) and hopefully it is final now, could this extra long discussion finally come to a conclusion?
 * P/S: How do you take a screenshot from an XBOX in the first place? Teugene 11:09, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

TV tuners for PCs generally have composite connections. Some higher end models have HDMI connections. Most of which have screenshot and video recording features. Shadowdragon00000 11:11, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Ah the things you miss when you go to sleep, and then sleep for 12 hours. I missed this whole conversation after Braveangel's last post so here is me trying to catch up. I actually never said that it was long for a thumbnail caption, actually I don't know who said it, but what I suggested was to chop it down a little. Well in context I guess you could interpret it as I said it was too long. Anyway I like the current caption because it seems to be a good compromise and it works because it does have some info from the article. Hopefully this will be the last post on this subject, because my patience is wearing very thin at this overly long discussion. Lancer1289 18:45, May 15, 2010 (UTC)(spellling mistakes Lancer1289 19:33, May 15, 2010 (UTC))