Talk:Weapon Damage Formula

In order to get accurate results i had to access game runtime data. The general purpose windows debugger(windbg) was my starting point. Windbg its a powerfull application(its purpose its debugging windows applications not hacking games)and while i have little doubt that in the hands of a proffessional it would have been enough i needed more help.. So i searched for a more specialized tool for the task at hand ( mainly finding/displaing/editing memory locations for variables such as Armor hit points, shield hit points, hit points and such.

"MHS is a utility for searching, viewing, and modifying the RAM of other processes, and for disassembling and debugging other processes. MHS sports the fastest and most efficient searches available, an advanced, colorful, and easy-to-use real-time Hex Editor, a Debugger with unique features, a Disassembler, and an extensive scripting language (L. Spiro Script) yielding unlimited potential. The array of tools offered in MHS can make hacking any game easy." Quote from the application help file introduction.

Having 0 experience with MHS(memory hacking sofware :) ) and Mass Effect 2 internal workings intial progress was slow. I can now find the memory locations for shield, armor and health of an YMIR mech in under a minute because now i know they are floats and their starting values (2150/2150/500). Address for shep shields, ammo in gun and so on ...

So i load a map, kill the lesser enemies, damage the YMIR to find out his addresses and then i'm ready for testing. I choosed YMIR becase the procedure i was first using to find the address consited in damaging it a bit checking witch memory values decreased, damaging some more and so on.. Initial number of search results can be very high but MHS has tools to automatise the process(finding unknown values). YMIR's had high enough hitpoint not to die while i was reducing the number of hits to 1.

Level scaling doesn't alter monsters hitpoints (YMIR will have 2150 shields all the time) but the damage you do to them. Must be some multiplier that i would calculate based on how much damage a melee hit would do to them. (For example at Shep lvl 2 a 125 melee hit does 69.62 damage meaning all damage is multiplied by 0.56 ( 69.62/125 ) at that lvl.

- testing with carniflex and revenant the damage was not consistent. Could random be involved? that would really end attempts(debbuging the code to find the actual damage formula is way beyond my ability). But when i tried the viper damage was repetable with many zecimals. So i remembered something about sniper rifles not getting damage bonus for range. Next tests would be done with sniper rifles.

- new game was perfect to establish baseline. 0 skills, 0 damage from equip, 0 research. So a shot from Mantis vs shield should do exacly mantis base damage. Measured value(new game mantis shot vs shield) = 146,536 damage. 146.536 * (125/ 69.62) = 263.1 (Base Damage of mantis in weapons table BINGO).

After that i simply started to add various bonuses and see what worked ...Peddroelm 10:17, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

"The formula you've listed looks reasonable but is not exactly the intended damage formula, however I can't say with a high degree of confidence that the damage at retail was exactly what I intended.

- Christina"

Wow, that would look almost valid if you weren't the only one to have edited the page. *eyeroll* Bastian964 00:58, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

I've asked Christina Norman (the bioware dev) in an email to review the formula. That what she answered but unfortunatly she did not edit this page she replied to the email. So i copy pasted from the email ...Peddroelm 04:31, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * And we have just your word on that, which isn't enough. I tend to agree with Commdor here, and I also question the validity of that statment. I agree with Bastian964 that since you were the only one who edited this page, you could have just wrote that. Lancer1289 04:34, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Send me an email from the wiki and i will forward back the email from Christina ..it can be edited i know but its the best I can do .. If more proof is necesary i guess i'll have to send her another email asking her nicely to validate my claims on this page - but there is no guaranty she'll oblige ...Peddroelm 05:31, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Send me an email from the wiki and i will forward back the email from Christina ..it can be edited i know but its the best I can do .. If more proof is necesary i guess i'll have to send her another email asking her nicely to validate my claims on this page - but there is no guaranty she'll oblige ...Peddroelm 05:31, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Deletion
Like it says in the deletion template, I just don't see why a page entirely about weapon damage calculations should be here. The game does these calculations automatically and much, much faster than anyone playing the game could, and I can't envision a situation where having these calculations available will help players at all. Maybe it could all be split up and added to the appropriate weapon articles, but I feel a subject of such obscurity and limited usefulness like this doesn't deserve it's own article. -- Commdor (Talk) 02:05, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

You might ask yourself what drove me to dig so deep and find those formulas. I was trying to compare squadmate effectivness (this is from an older email i've send to somebody asking about enemies stats

(" I intend to use the standard unupgraded melee attack (125 damage point vs everything) to measure stats(shield//armor//health of various enemies) (rounded) around the 125 value ... Is there a level scalling ? Will see (i'll test against YMIR at lvl 2 and at lvl 30) ...Using those stats i hope to be able to calculate the weapon singleshot(snipers, pistols) damage formula taking into account factors such as class passive damage bonus, ammo powers, various research, miranda.... Would be nice to be able to calculate what skill levels , upgrades and ammo powers u need to be able to one shot standard mooks without cloak or Adrenaline rush. How many head shots will a max level Legion need to drop Harbinger .. How much of the geth are shields and how much is health ?... How much barrier damage would a full clip of a maxed out tempest do ...? How many mantis shots would Zaeed need on Horizon (3/5,AP,headshot sniper upgrades) to drop a scion with squad incendiary ammo ? Can Legion ever dream of one shoting standard mooks ? .... Power and weapon combinations to "insta" drop guardian and assasin barriers .. And so on and so on .. :) . .. In order to compare their effectiviness with powers and weapons: damage formulas would be required. (power damage is simple to calculate / single shot weapon considering all research bonuses is not figuring NPC rate on fire vs their cast rate would have to come latter.. ) Another factor for figuring their effectiviness is of course various enemy HP(at different Shepard levels) (would the area version of this power take down protections in one shot ? would you need the heavy version ?). Hit point values at this point will also help me figure out weapon singleshot damage formula.). How do you choose between diffrent pieces of equipment to wear ? "

Of course knowing the weapon damage formulas is just half of the deal. Enemies stats also must be known in order to make those kinds of calculations. What i know so far about Mass effect 2 level scaling is that is a function of Shepard level, curent difficulty level and current game progress. Enemies stats do not change during the game - level scaling is acomplished by reducing the damage they take ( all attacks will do less and less damage and you need upgrades, skills and equipment to keep up).

LVL 2 YMIR freedom progress (no research)(insanity) :

Base Health 500

Base Shields&Armor 2150

Damage From un upgrated melee attack(125) to either health/shield/armor: 69.620239. So each form of attack(weapons, melee, heavy weapons, powers) will have its damage reduced by 69.620239/125 =0.556961

Or the equivalent scaled up YMIR stats are

ScaledHealth 897.73 ScaledShields&Armor 3860.22

LVL 4 YMIR recruit convict

Base Health 500

Base Shields&Armor 2150

Damage From un upgrated melee attack(125) to either health/shield/armor: 63.291016. So each form of attack(weapons, melee, heavy weapons, powers) will have its damage reduced by 63.291016/125 =0.50632..

Or the equivalent scaled up YMIR stats are

ScaledHealth 987.5 ScaledShields&Armor 4246.26

LVL 30 YMIR save the crates normal game(no NG+)

Base Health 500

Base Shields&Armor 2000 ( the YMIRs on this map have diffrent base stats they could be diffrent monsters ..should test this map on a new game at low lvl)

Damage From double upgrated melee attack(125*1.25*1.25) to either health/shield/armor: 59.335. So each form of attack(weapons, melee, heavy weapons, powers) will have its damage reduced by 59.335/(125*1.25*1.25) =0.3037952

Or the equivalent scaled up YMIR stats are

ScaledHealth 1645.85 ScaledShields&Armor 6583.38

LVL 30 YMIR NG + freedom progress

Base Health 500

Base Shields&Armor 2150

Damage From un upgrated melee attack(125) to either health/shield/armor: 43.67. So each form of attack(weapons, melee, heavy weapons, powers) will have its damage reduced by 43.67/125 =0.34936

Or the equivalent scaled up YMIR stats are

ScaledHealth 1431.19 ScaledShields&Armor 6154.11

I was hoping since this game is made with the unreal engine some tools would exist to dump the base enemies stats from the game resurce files, only work remaining to be done beeing to figuring up the formulas for level scaling....

Peddroelm 06:54, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Lancer and Commdor on this one. This page seems (to me at least) overly long, and overly technical. I couldn't care less about this sort of stuff, I play the game to play the game, not to formulate what does how much damage, when, and when used by whom. As for the whole, 'google searches for this will bring people here' line of reasoning, this site is already #5 on google when you search for Mass Effect, and #3 when you search for Mass Effect 2, behind only the official BioWare page and the wikipedia page. If people are looking up anything about Mass Effect online, they find us, regardless. So yeah, I have to vote in favor of deletion. This would be good stuff for the forum, but I don't think it needs an article here. SpartHawg948 07:46, June 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * ". If people are looking up anything about Mass Effect online, they find us, regardless. So yeah, I have to vote in favor of deletion" so by invalidating one of my arguments you invalidate all ? :( Peddroelm 08:12, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I never said any such thing. Please don't put words in my mouth. SpartHawg948 08:18, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Even though I stated above, I throw my vote here too. This article is overly long, technical, and I also could care less about this stuff. We are an encyclopedia of the ME universe, not an excel spreadsheet of damage indicatators. I agree that this article needs to go as well. Maybe the forums are a good place, but not a main article. Lancer1289 07:52, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * " ..I couldn't care less about this sort of stuff // I also could care less about this stuff .."  this wiki is not only for you two people. Some people outhere might care about this sort of stuff - why deny them the chance without them having any say so ?  And i still think this wiki would be the best place to present it. We are an encyclopedia of the ME universe:  "A comprehensive reference work containing articles on a wide range of subjects or on numerous aspects of a particular field". I would think this covers the weapon damage formula too, even if say 80% of the game players  "couldn't care less about this sort of stuff" ..
 * " article is overly long, technical" it deals with technical stuff .. Help me(find someone willing to) find a better way to pesent this information ...Peddroelm 08:12, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * And this wiki is also not just for you. When things come up for deletion, people get to vote. And when they vote, they often express why they feel the way they do. You can argue the logic, but please don't try and belittle people for feeling the way they do, along the lines of 'this wiki isn't just for you'. If there are others out there who want this to stay, they have a week to say so here. We take into consideration differing views without just dismissing them, saying 'this wiki isn't just for you'. As for your second point, I already did when I recommended putting it in the Forum, a more appropriate venue for this stuff. SpartHawg948 08:18, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * " article is overly long, technical" it deals with technical stuff .. Help me(find someone willing to) find a better way to pesent this information ...Peddroelm 08:12, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * And this wiki is also not just for you. When things come up for deletion, people get to vote. And when they vote, they often express why they feel the way they do. You can argue the logic, but please don't try and belittle people for feeling the way they do, along the lines of 'this wiki isn't just for you'. If there are others out there who want this to stay, they have a week to say so here. We take into consideration differing views without just dismissing them, saying 'this wiki isn't just for you'. As for your second point, I already did when I recommended putting it in the Forum, a more appropriate venue for this stuff. SpartHawg948 08:18, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * And this wiki is also not just for you. When things come up for deletion, people get to vote. And when they vote, they often express why they feel the way they do. You can argue the logic, but please don't try and belittle people for feeling the way they do, along the lines of 'this wiki isn't just for you'. If there are others out there who want this to stay, they have a week to say so here. We take into consideration differing views without just dismissing them, saying 'this wiki isn't just for you'. As for your second point, I already did when I recommended putting it in the Forum, a more appropriate venue for this stuff. SpartHawg948 08:18, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

more arguments for keeping the page
1. Ex :

On the Zaeed page it is said that his +50% Mercenary commander to damage brings his Assault rifle damage on par with Shepard's. Because they way of the damage formula operates this affirmation is false in over 90% of situations. The NPC weapon damage nerf is global while the bonus damage from skills is additive with other damage bonuses. I could go that page and edit and start an "edit war" or i could just point the original poster towards the damage formula page, let him do the math and hopefully alter the statement himself.

There are other such innacurate informations on this wiki (mainly the upgated DPS comparison page). Again people will not concede to change their hard work without a referenceable page(idealy backed up by a bioware dev) showing how diffrent weapon upgrades influence the overal damage of the weapon ..

2. I would harzard to guess that the hosting resurces this page consumes (HDD space) are ridiculosly small - irrelevant. As long as this page indexed by google brings people serching for weapon damage formulas to this wiki (and hopefully even get some of them intrested enough to contribute, or just check the content on other pages) and not to some forum where this data will end up if removed from wiki, it has served it purpose ...

Its content might not seem intresting to you (one man, i'm sure there are more that share your opinion on this subject) but consider this (anoher quote from one of my emails)

"I have more of an RPG background(Baldur's Gate,Fallout series, Might and Magic ) and Turn Based Strategy (stats, numbers :) ) and was initially pissed at bioware for hiding all the numbers in this game. My first post on this forums was about it (this gun upgrades that gun - but in testing them they proved to be diffrent animals, like comparing apples to oranges - and all you had to work on was this gun upgrates that gun .. If at least they would have allowed you to actually test weapons in that huge armory... "

there might be more people out there intrested about those "numbers" and how they work, even thow i would grant you this: they might not be from the intended "game target audience". Why not help make the game more fun for a broader audience ? The extra data would not be forced on those you have no need for it but it would be accessible for those who want it ...

And with this i rest my case so to speak :) ..Peddroelm 07:42, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

even more "desperate :)" arguments to keeping the page
I don't belive it is right for people to vote out information from the wiki just because they don't find it intresting.

A better criteria would be if there are at least some people intrested - the information should stay. If you go ahead and censor it before it gets a chance to reach out its intended target (people whoa re intrested on this kind of stuff) it down't seem fair

Yes its overly long and technical :  it deals with technical stuff -  you could help me cosmetize but the heart of the article will always remain technical..

You are saing this wiki doen't not to cover all aspects of Mass effect 2 ? (including technical stuff )  but only lore ? Peddroelm 08:22, June 12, 2010 (UTC)