User talk:SpartHawg948

I hate the way images look when added to talk pages. They mess with the flow of the page, and generally look just plain unsightly. As such, I ask that editors please not post images on my talk page. If you have an image that supports your point, feel free to provide a link to that image, but please don't add the image itself. From this point on, any such posts will be summarily removed as soon as they are noticed, with no warning or explanation.

Cthulhu validity
Here's a quote from one of the cultists in "Call of Cthulhu":


 * "They were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape [...] but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them."


 * I have to say I can't see how this quote proves anything about how that function connects them to the Reapers. Even if it did it is a huge stretch. Lancer1289 20:07, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Sovereign's role was to manipulate entities into reawakening the hibernating Reapers at the edge of the galaxy. Likewise, Cthulhu had to manipulate humans into raising R'lyeh and subsequently awakening his brethren from their hibernation. This series is rife with inspiration from Lovecraft. Heck, another connection to the series in that very quote is "When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky". -- Shoggoth1890 20:15, January 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict - If you want to talk to Lancer, please do it on his talk page or yours, not mine) But that quote was contradicted in later works, was it not? For example, in The Dunwich Horror, it is stated that Cthulu is not one of the Old Ones, as was stated in the work you quote, but rather that "Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly". In other works, Cthulu's spawn are described actively fighting against the Old Ones in R'lyeh. Lovecraft's mythos is so convoluted and contradictory that statements like what you are adding really only apply if you selectively pick and choose bits of the mythos. If you take it in its entirety, they cease to have relevance. SpartHawg948 20:18, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * As for the "plunge from world to world through the sky" bit, I do have to call that one a real stretch. Not just a stretch, but a s-s-s-t-t-t-r-r-r-e-e-e-c-c-c-h-h-h. It has literally as much to do with Mass Effect as it does with any other sci-fi series employing FTL technology. FTL in Mass Effect has nothing whatsoever to do with the stars being right. That leaves plunging from world to world through the sky, which could refer to pretty much any sci-fi franchise. If I had to pick any sci-fi series/franchise that the quote about stars and plunging from world to world most closely resembled, it'd be Stargate, where the people actually literally go from world to world, instead of most series (like Mass Effect) where they go from star system to star system or cluster to cluster, and in which the positions of stars does have a definite impact on travel. SpartHawg948 21:17, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Apologies, posted there because I was trying to avoid cross-page talk. If it weren't for the sheer abundance of Lovecraft influence I'd agree that the between worlds bit was a stretch, so I was reticent about mentioning it. Inconsistencies in specifics of a franchise(not really a franchise I know) are not grounds to exclude any mention of said franchise. The unified canon is what matters. Star Wars is filled with inconsistencies, but it does not invalidate someone that mentions the accepted canon. Retcon sucks, yes, but it happens. -- Shoggoth1890 21:43, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * But in this case, since the source I provided comes after the source you provided, wouldn't that invalidate your position? I mean, the "ret" in retcon does stand for retroactive. That's the whole point of retcon. Material released more recently (such as The Dunwich Horror, which states that Cthulu is not one of the Old Ones) invalidating the older material (which you cite), becoming the new canon? As for a sheer abundance of Lovecraft influence, I can honestly say I haven't seen any abundance. Maybe one or two isolated bits and pieces, but certainly no more than the influences we see of other authors, such as Heinlein. SpartHawg948 22:02, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

No, the second example provides the conflict, but the retcon is from going back to explain away said conflict. The Dunwich Horror example, however, is referring to the type of being that Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath are. "Old Ones" are different than "Great Old Ones", source of much confusion for me initially as well. -- Shoggoth1890 22:15, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * But in Lovecraft's work, Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath are "Other Gods", not Old Ones. SpartHawg948 22:25, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

They are both. As stated previously, those were generic terms which to describe ancient entities, capitalized to emphasize the gravity of their being, and no more invalidates it than stating that the Ancients(Greeks) worshipped Zeus while the Ancients(Egyptians) worshipped Ra. The names being turned into proper names happened later, with "Old Ones" remaining ambiguous references to various races while "Great Old Ones" became a proper name for a particular race. -- Shoggoth1890 22:56, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah... I've seen literally nothing to support that contention. And your example would seem to further invalidate it. Zeus and Ra are two totally different deities, from two totally different pantheons. The Macedonians (generally considered quite distinct from the Ancient Greeks) did begin to associate the two gods during the reign of Alexander, but for the most part, Zeus and Ra are totally distinct. I'm telling you what I've seen and read, and this simply does not substantiate the claims you are making. The Other Gods such as Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath are vastly different from Cthulu and its ilk, and as such, the claim that "Great Cthulhu is Their cousin" really doesn't add up. On the other hand, it would make sense if referring to the Great Old Ones, who are fairly similar to Cthulu. This one seems to be coming down more to personal interpretations of vague and ill-defined literature, which does not make for good trivia. To be quite honest, I've long been of the opinion that the entire "Sovereign is similar to Cthulu" trivia item is bogus, but this seems even more so. SpartHawg948 23:23, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

You completely missed my point. Using a carpet term like Old Ones or Ancients means you cannot use them to refer to a specific people. The Greek being different from the Egyptians was exactly the point I was making, it was an analogy. -- Shoggoth1890 23:33, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm not following that analogy. You may want to clarify that one, or maybe not. I did make some other points though that were not addressed in your reply. I would very much like to see a response to them. SpartHawg948 23:40, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Old Ones was only capitalized to add gravitas to the phrase, as evidenced in its consistency in use for several types of beings. Consider instead old ones. Literally the ones that are old, i.e. ancients. I honestly do not know how to simplify the analogy more. -- Shoggoth1890 23:49, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * So that's a no, then, on addressing the rest of my post? I don't even know why I bother asking sometimes. It seems like too many people these days listen to Robert McNamara, and answer the question they wish they'd been asked, instead of the question they were actually asked. SpartHawg948 00:34, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that you are getting stuck and repeating yourself when I have made a valid point and I am sure you feel the same about me. Such is the way of man. Let's address one point at a time and not move on until it is addressed. In the post above this, what is one of the points you say I did not address? -- Shoggoth1890 04:35, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * The contention, made several times, that this issue is largely subjective, depending on ones own interpretation of the rather convoluted and contradictory mythos Lovecraft concocted. SpartHawg948 04:39, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Would you agree with the statement that, "when in doubt, refer to 'The Call of Cthulhu'", since it is 1.) From the creator of the character and 2.) Contains the most information on the character from said source? -- Shoggoth1890 04:49, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really. What we have here is a multi-volume series, with works by the original author and his (more or less) chosen successor. We also find contradictory elements within the works written solely by the original author. As I reply when asked similar questions dealing strictly with Mass Effect issues, it is not up to us to determine which items from different works in the series are more or less canon. We merely have to make the best of what we're given until the relevant authorities choose to make their views known, though I must confess I have no clue who the relevant authorities are in regards to the Cthulhu (spelled with two H's just for you!) mythos. Perhaps the estates of Mr. Lovecraft and/or Derleth, or possibly Arkham House? Please don't think I'm just trying to be contrarian here. As stated above, I take a nearly identical stance with canon issues and inconsistencies within the Mass Effect universe. SpartHawg948 04:58, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Heh, I appreciate the peace offering of the H. I've admittedly had issues with Derleth ever since being duped into buying his "posthumous collaborations" when I was first getting into Lovecraft. He did help bring HPL to the public, so it's a one-sided love-hate relationship between him and I. Would you agree with the more generalized statement(not referring to the Cthulu Mythos this time) that when there is a dispute in the canon of something, source material should be referenced? -- Shoggoth1890 05:10, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes... to an extent. (Don't want to talk myself into a corner here - referring to general site policies, not to this discussion in particular.) I do think that, for disputes of the nature you describe, source material certainly should be referenced. The only issue I have with this is with referencing canon sources in the disputed article. I don't think that is always necessary, so long as the source is provided, preferably on a talk page. The reason I make this equivocation is because we've had issues before with people citing sources (particularly the three Mass Effect novels) for every tiny little detail, and in a fictional universe, that leads to a whole lot of citations at the bottom of the page. SpartHawg948 05:20, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Do not worry, I'm not playing the "gotcha!" game. I always view slight concessions as a good sign and thus try to avoid discouraging them, and try to make sure I make them as well. Is the primary issue then that I did not cite "The Call of Cthulhu"? I am admittedly new to editing wikis, and have not learned all of the proper etiquette (couldn't find the 3 revert rule Lancer mentioned, is it an unspoken rule or did I look at the wrong page?) -- 71.74.72.212 05:43, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not worried about you playing "gotcha!" or anything. It's more about making sure I don't get myself into trouble later. I'm big on precedent and all that when making decisions, and it's never fun when someone doesn't like something I did and responds with 'but on your talk page, you said "___"', so I'm just trying to cover all my bases, playing "CYA". I can't really speak for what Lancer's issue was, though mine was more an issue of accuracy, compliance with site policy, and perhaps relevance.
 * Now, as to the "three-revert rule", I suppose we could clarify that some. There is actually nothing explicitly defining the three-revert rule or its use by the site admins. There is an item in the Community Guidelines which names "edit warring" as grounds for banning, and the admins use the "three revert rule" which is used by the folks at Wikipedia as the basis for determining what is and isn't an edit war. I suppose the Guidelines could use some clarification. I'll get right on it! :) SpartHawg948 05:55, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Oddly enough I feel placated despite our still extant disagreement. I do agree with you that the specifics of the article could be refined, but enough of a connection exists that it seems extreme to deny them entirely, so much so that it came off sounding like you were threatening to take away something as punishment. I apologize if that was incorrectly interpreted. Perhaps a mention that it is incredibly similar to the nature of Cthulhu as described in 'The Call of Cthulhu', as it seems we both agree that particular story does match, and the contention arises from continuity thereafter? -- Shoggoth1890 06:34, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. I do, as I've stated several times, feel that there is a decent case to be made for a connection between the Reapers as a whole and Cthulhu, since when talking about the Reapers as a whole we can factor in the Derelict Reaper. And frankly, the only way someone can deny the Cthulhu references in that case is if the person in question is either ignorant or just denying it out of spite. As such, I am perfectly happy keeping the Cthulhu trivia on the Reaper page. However, I just don't think that a valid case has been made as far as Sovereign and Cthulu. I still stand by my comments on the Sovereign talk page. A much better case needs to be made to keep that item. This is not me being contrary, or attempting to punish. I simply, after examining the issue more closely, don't see the merit of the trivia linking Sovereign to Cthulhu. 80% of it is just plain false. SpartHawg948 07:14, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

First the image issue: While true that the original editor's claim that they are "the same" is inaccurate, that does not mean there is no connection at all. Would you agree that the cephalopodic feature of Cthulhu is regarded as his most defining and most referenced physical characteristic, as opposed to the man-like and dragon-like elements? -- Shoggoth1890 03:57, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure. That said, it needs to be pointed out that Cthulhu was said to be reminiscent of an octopus. Sovereign clearly is not. It must also be pointed out that simple comparisons based on visuals or appearance are, per site policy, not grounds for valid trivia. SpartHawg948 05:46, January 23, 2011 (UTC)