Talk:Catalyst

Initial Understanding
Shouldn't this article include, at the beginning, a description of what the Catalyst is initially believed to be? Until the end the Catalyst is simply thought to be something required to activate the Crucible, however this article jumps straight into what it actually is. JakePT 02:39, March 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * You'd know more about it than me at this point. I just created an article based on an edit to the Crucible article to eliminate a redlink. -- Commdor (Talk) 02:52, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Origins of Catalyst
Is it really an AI? Was that explained? It seemed more like a godly figure of some kind to me. Who was the AI built by? --Oobilator 21:31, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not really explained. It's assumed to be the Reaper AI as it refers to the Reapers as 'we'.JakePT 05:39, March 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * That kind of confuses me. It's an AI, and it says it wipes out organic life every cycle to prevent the organics from making AI that cause chaos? Isn't that how it was vaguely explained? --Oobilator 21:31, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Bioware watched too much Battlestar Galactica.
 * Topics like this belong elsewhere as this isn't what talk pages are for. Lancer1289 12:01, March 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no reference to the catalyst being an AI. Neither in-game, nor any external "official" source. Stating it is an AI is an assumption, not cannon information. Hobarrera 17:40, March 31, 2012 (UTC)

Plot line question.
Wait. Was the Catalyst active during ME1? If its been observing for so long, why the do the Reapers need to leave behind one of their own to make sure everything's fine? Isn't that redundant? Furthermore; how did the Protheans thwart the cycle last time, if the Catalyst was right there? Wouldn't it have stopped them? 50.53.96.99 04:51, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Topics like this belong elsewhere as this isn't what talk pages are for. Lancer1289 12:01, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Where would they go? I thought Talk pages were for just that, talking about what the thing in question has to do with the ME Universe.--Oobilator 22:41, March 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * We reserve talk pages for discussing the maintenance of articles (is a statement in an article factual or speculation, how should the article be organized, etc.). The topic you've posted should go in the wiki's Forums, or you can start a user blog about it. -- Commdor (Talk) 22:45, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, got it. Thanks. Oobilator 22:56, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Initial description
The initial description said it was an AI and layed dormant inside the citadel. There are no references stating that it's an AI (one might even belive it's not, since it speaks of sythetics in third person), and it clearly states in-game that the citadel is only a part of it (so it clearly didn't lay dormant inside of the citadel; that makes no sense). I've edited the first paragraph accordingly.


 * As far as I know, the Prothean VI claimed the Catalyst to be the Citadel (during the attack on the Cerberus HQ). The Catalyst itself claims the Citadel to be a part of it. The Catalyst indeed speaks of the reapers in third person (the reapers and their cycle are the Catalysts solution to the problem that synthetics will always rebel against their creators.) I do not know, but I'm pretty sure that the Catalyst speaks of synthetics and organics in third person, so Catalyst origin stays unclear. Afaik there is no ingame information about its origin, but I must admit I dod not really read the codex. Nephertina 17:56, April 6, 2012 (UTC)

amount of options
I tried to update the information about the amount of options given to Shepard and noticed that this was undone several times. The amount of options Shepard is given by the Catalyst depends on your military effective strength (EMS). I do not actually know exact values (and right now I'm not in the mood to google), but I played a game with an EMS about 2.200 points or below and did not have any choice but one straight way. So please do not keep on telling people who might play Mass Effect 3 for the first time that you always will have three options to choose between, which is implied by "gives Shepard three options". You better say "up to three". Nephertina 13:36, April 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * This is because it doesn't belong in this type of article. Using words like "the player", "you", and guide like wording is inappropriate in main articles by site policy. Things like that belong in the guides themselves. Lancer1289 16:31, April 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * So you declare this wiki giving wrong information is ok? Nephertina 17:01, April 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * And where is this baseless accusation coming from? Lancer1289 17:03, April 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, stop! That kind of talk does not lead to anything useful. I appologize. I admit I do not understand all of your answer. What do you mean with "this kind of information"? Nephertina 17:32, April 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * I did not add the information about these three options, i just tried to correct wrong information into true. Claiming that "Shepard is given three options" and not telling that the amount of options depends on your EMS level (see Commander Shepard for further information) is simply wrong (my Renegade Shepard had just one way to go and no option but control the reapers as mentioned above, take that as an evidence). I do agree that information about the options and their amount do not belong to a database but to a guide or walkthrough. Nephertina 17:32, April 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * The wording was wrong, and the details some details are out of place. This wiki aims to tell the story about the game, and other relevant information, not help players find out how to achieve something. I've modified the article to say "up to three options".  How to obtain more or less options, belongs in a walkthough/guide.
 * Suggestion: move the whole content of "Discovery" into the quest related article and leave here a hint to it. Information about the discovery of the Catalyst (from my point of view): Shepard discovers the Catalyst at the very ending of Mass Effect 3 when hovered up to a formerly unknown place of the Citadel. - or sth. like that. Nephertina 13:57, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Discovery
Most of this content belong to a guide or walkthrough and some also appear at Commander Shepard. Redundant information may be contradictory and should be deleted. Any opinions? Nephertina 17:41, April 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * That subsection seems to need a minor rewrite to conform to some of this wiki's guidelines (I may be wrong though). The correct thing would be to move that information over to this article; if we had everything related to shepard in the shepard article, it'd be huge and unmaintainable. Hobarrera 07:00, April 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * So specific sections might be moved from Commander Shepard into the articles they belong to. As exmaple, you might move the Commander Shepard section to here, completely remove that from Commander Shepard and instead make a hint to it (just as: "Fate -> see Catalyst for further information" or sth. like that). Due to nearly anything through the whole 3 games belong in any case to Shepard, this would cut the article about her/him to a handable size. Nephertina 12:39, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

I removed the quest related stuff and left a hint to the quest it belongs to. Keep in mind this article is neither a walkthrough nor a guide. You may fill in quest related information into the quest article. Thanks. Nephertina 14:45, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

AI?
Just to make sure, the Catalyst is confirmed to be an artificial intelligence, right? I think Shepard refers to it as a machine during their conversation... I'm not going to mess with the opening paragraph, but I wanted to make sure the info there is correctOperativeKlause 18:27, April 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * It is also stated that Shepard always has three options to choose from at the very ending of ME3, even with low EMS, so why should we not claim the Catalyst to be an AI? There is no evidence that either the Catalyst is part of the reapers, as he tells Shepard that reapers are its solution to chaos. Furthermore it cannot be said that it is not a reaper due to CL talks of the reapers as "we" and not of "they". CL does not to be an organic as it tells Shepard to be the first organic life ever standing up where s/he meets CL. As far as I understand the dialog between Shepard and CL, I claim CL not to be organic. Nothing less, nothing more. Nephertina 19:07, April 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've addressed this in the section "Initial description" in this talk page. While there is no evidence that The Catalyst is not an AI, there is no evidence that it is either.  Assuming it *is* an AI is speculation. Hobarrera 07:02, April 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * It is a machine, though - that much is certain. It's identified as a machine by Shepard, and it inhabits an artificial construct (The Citadel). Wouldn't that make it an AI? OperativeKlause 21:27, April 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * It could be that the Catalyst was an organic entity who transferred his consciousness into the Citadel (like how the Virtual Aliens downloaded themselves into a supercomputer). That would mean it's not artificial. Is that speculation? Yes, but the point is we know so little about the Catalyst that we can't rule such possibilities out. As such, stating that the Catalyst is an AI is only an assumption, not a fact. -- Commdor (Talk) 22:02, April 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Given that unknown race of body-snatchers that has had brief mention, we can't know exactly what to call it. However, we do know that it is not organic at this time; it states as much in claiming that Shepard is the first organic to show up there. It also does not deny Shepard's accusation that it is a machine, but that is fairly shaky evidence in itself. It may be an AI, it may be a downloaded organic intelligence, or it may be something entirely different (life form comprised of pure energy?), but it is doubtlessly not an organic life form at this time. I do not believe that we should suggest in the intro, then, that it could be organic when it clearly is not. Gamemako 02:16, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Being of Light
I have evidence via a tweet from the Bioware Community Manager that the Catalyst is presumed to be a being of light. Observe https://twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/189420195968847873. Make of it what you will, but it's pretty conclusive to me.--AdmiralPedro1stFleet 01:25, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought the BoL was always a reference to the Reapers in the first place, being a product of the indoctrination process. And you know, it just occurred to me that the notion supports indoctrination theory, which makes me feel dirty. Perhaps it was always meant more literally, then? Gamemako 02:37, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I think that's jumping to the wrong conclusion--AdmiralPedro1stFleet 02:39, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Addendum: I believe it would be worth adding to the article with reference as a possibility or side-note; however, I do not believe we can simply say outright that the Catalyst is a BoL as we don't even know what a BoL is. The Catalyst may well be the only one, for that matter, and the BoLs may actually be just be a part of the Reapers. If further DLC or the ending DLC clarifies this, we may be able to say with more certainty (or even add a BoL page), but I just don't know at this time that it's grounds for much of a change. Gamemako 02:45, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. We wait till the ending DLC to see if I am right or not--AdmiralPedro1stFleet 03:01, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

In the renegade response to the catalyst, Shepard calls it a machine, and it doesnt correct him. Its a AI, VI, hallucination, -whatever. I never saw the Catalyst as the missing component, rather the guide to how to use the citadel/crucible. There needs to be some character to explain things (even if people think bioware did this badly). --awayorafk

Opinions are respected but not what talk pages are for unless the opinion is relevant to the structure or presentation of the article itself. Please take your opinion on what the Catalyst itself is to a forum or blog. Thank you--AdmiralPedro1stFleet 05:27, April 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Split apart the comments to correct odd display error. Pedro, I think he's just saying that it is in no way confirmed that the Catalyst is a BoL or that the BoL(s) are not simply another AI/VI/whatever. Again, I don't think there's going to be anything wrong with putting the well-sourced speculation in the article, just as long as we aren't passing it off as a direct, incontrovertible fact or excluding reasonable alternatives or non-exclusive information (e.g. that the Catalyst is an AI). Gamemako 05:41, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Update: I have added the information to the article in as neutral a fashion as I could muster -- I am still not pleased with it, however, and would like to make the language flow better and be more clear. It is certainly very relevant information, but I wouldn't call Merizan's word "dev confirmation" either, so it's left as speculation in the article. Gamemako 05:55, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Pictures
How many pictures are wanted for an article? I have all of the ending videos in HD so I could put some up if they are needed but I don't understand how many pictures are needed. I removed the pictures wanted tag because I thought someone had forgotten to remove the tag after adding a picture, but then User:Silverstrike claimed pictures are still wanted. Xelestial 21:39, May 19, 2012 (UTC)