Talk:Morality Guide (Mass Effect 2)

This article is under construction and will take a while to be finished. It is intended to be precise, so please don't add assumed or unconfirmed triggers.--Karstedt 05:53, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Class Talent Bonuses
Just wondering... are these scores taking into account the bonus your class talent gives you? Matt 2108 03:48, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Class bonuses give bonuses to your overall paragon and renegade scores. The effects are noticeable when allocating ranks. They do not affect the rate at which they're acquired. I've played the game across multiple classes, and the paragon and renegade points are always the same, as in the screen always shows a +2 Paragon or whatever, whether as a soldier or as infiltrator. &mdash;Seburo 08:15, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup, the number of points shown is always the same regardless of if your bonus is 0% or 100%. In reality, I imagine you are actually getting (stated number)*(100+bonus)% points. Nialia 03:49, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Morality points before load screen
There's quite a few places where you have a conversation with someone that gives morality points right before a load screen, and you never get to see how many points you got (except that your Paragon or Renegade bar in the Squad screen goes up slightly). Any idea how to get info for these situations? Nialia 10:13, February 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm no expert, but perhaps there's a utility to examine savegames for the paragon/renegade levels (in numbers?), in which case we could compare the levels from a savegame before and after the load screen. It would be time-consuming work, but possible. Apart from this, and again I'm no expert, but surely there is a place in the ME2 game files that contains the coding for renegade or paragon points, although it may be difficult to access. If all this fails, manual examination of the bar and an estimation based on the usual points given (i.e. 2 or 5 points) is probably our best chance. Bronzey 08:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * You have to edit the Coalesced.ini file and add keybinds to "setparagon 0" and "setrenegade 0". Then you can save before the conversation, use the keybind and after the conversation you can use the keybind again and it will show how many points were deducted to set you to 0. There are two editor out there that can modify this file without making it cause a crash. You can get them here and here. You can also just go for the pre-made cheat ready file here.--Karstedt 10:40, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's fantastic! I don't have the PC version myself, but perhaps somebody could do this for the occasions where loading screens disrupt normal viewing of Paragon/Renegade points earned. It would be very time consuming, though extremely useful. Bronzey 12:02, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that's good to know. Just got it working in game, so I might look at adding info for those conversations at some point in the future. Nialia 12:15, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Drink Kiosk near Conrad Verner
When buying drinks from the Drink Kiosk near Conrad, the notification icon shows a paragon or renegade symbol, which seems to depend on how you treated Conrad. I'm not sure if there are any side effects as a result of this. Nialia 23:48, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Simultaneous Paragon/Renegade points; and 'undeclared points'
I'm just curious about something I noticed in my first game, where I aimed to be solely paragon where at all possible. I was going along fine until about mid-game (on the second tier of Dossiers), where I noticed my renegade bar had climbed to approximately 10% even though I'd had no notification of receiving any Renegade points. I'm sure I didn't miss the notifications, so my only thought is that I was receiving points behind the scenes without any declaration. Also, in some situations after a long conversation or mission I would receive a large number of paragon points (say 11) and a smaller number of Renegade points (say 2 or 5), even though I hadn't chosen any renegade options in dialogue. My only conclusion is that either some options are bugged and give both paragon or renegade points; or some dialogue choices deliberately give both paragon and renegade points. Has anybody else noticed this, or am I going crazy? Bronzey 12:09, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you look at the guide, you'll see several places where Paragon / Renegade points are unavoidable. For example, when completing Mordin or Samara's Dossier missions you can't avoid getting 5 paragon and 5 renegade points. Also note you will only see those points if you choose to "Stay behind" instead of going directly to the Normady and not seeing the notification due to the load screen. In fact, its quite likely that all Dossier missions reward a base 5 paragon and 5 renegade points, but you don't see most of the updates because of the load screen. Additionally, a lot of side missions give you base paragon or renegade points (that are only avoidable by not completing the mission), depending on the type of quest... This annoys me a bit too, but oh well. I guess they just wanted to ensure everyone had a decent pool of Paragon and Renegade points by default. Nialia 12:20, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks for the reply. I assumed something like this was the case; where renegade/paragon points were 'unavoidable' in a completed game. Still, with this handy morality guide I can attempt to minimise my depravity and evilness :) Bronzey 12:30, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Redundancy
I think most of us noticed that Paragon options is usually the one on the top half of the choices, and Renegade on the bottom half. The only time it isn't is if all the choices are just asking questions rather than choosing a reply. Having said that, the points allocated to a certain reply is always the same. For example if you take a look at the replies in "Omega: The Professor: Missing Assistant" part of this article, the points are the same for the same replies regardless of which branch you take. --Lord0din69 22:21, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Better to be complete than to omit information and have confusion or doubt about what might happen. The morality guide could be shortened a lot by just saying pick the top response in all conversations to get paragon points and the bottom response to get renegade points, but I think people would find that a lot less useful. &mdash;Seburo 23:21, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * While ME1 could be a lot more obscure about which option would lead to paragon.renegade points. ME is definitely more streamlined in respect of "top answer gives you pp, bottom answer gives you rp'. There are still plenty of situations that may or may not give you anything. So like Seburo said, better to be complete.--Karstedt 22:47, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood. I didn't say to omit the points or branch, I said to omit the redundant information. Again, giving the example from "Omega: The Professor: Missing Assistant" the choice of "Nobody needs to die." gives you +5 no matter which branch of the conversation you pick. If you pick it first or later doesn't matter, it'll give you +5 points still. Simply the points should be listed separately from the possible conversation branches. --Lord0din69 00:04, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * That is done because choosing certain conversation paths can result in being unable to choose others. I can't tell by looking at that one, but there may be a conversation option that will lead to you not having the choice to say "Nobody needs to die" or bypass the the options that come before it. So it's important to list some things redundantly because they may only be reachable through certain conversation paths. Generally though, if a conversation point is unavoidable, it would be listed separated with a "+" and come after any conversation options it would otherwise skip.--Karstedt 03:34, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Again, I did not say to remove the conversation branches. I was referring to the points that is listed next to the same choices. I thought I made this clear on the second reply. For example "Nobody needs to die." is listed 3 times and they all have +5 points. Lets say hypothetically that someone found out it was not +5 points but instead +2 points. They would have to edit all three quotes. What if they only edit 1 out of the 3 redundant data listed. Not only would it be a hassle to correct errors but also leads to inconsistency. It's not that big of an issue, but you can imagine it can scale up to something worst. --Lord0din69 00:31, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there's every more than 3 lines of redundancy, and its rare that someone would enter the wrong value as long as they've run through the conversation options enough times, so I don't think that's much of an issue. On the other hand, I have to admit there are some areas which could be (and probably should be) written a little more succinctly. The "Missing Assistant" section (which I wrote a bit lazily), for example, could become:
 * 5 Paragon for Charming "Nobody needs to die."
 * 5 Renegade for Intimidating "Kill him, and you're next."
 * 5 Renegade for selecting "[Signal henchman.]"
 * Saying "He's not my friend.", or 2 Paragon for saying "Everybody stay calm."
 * 5 Paragon for Charming "Nobody needs to die."
 * 2 Paragon for saying "Let's talk this out."
 * 5 Renegade for Intimidating "Kill him, and you're next."
 * 5 Renegade for selecting "[Signal henchman.]" Nialia 07:58, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

There should be a better way to do this rather than using bullets. A state diagram would be ideal to map out the conversation paths to full detail. Another approach is just a table read top down. It'll be easier to read and maintain but won't display the dead end paths. --Lord0din69 22:04, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

Ignoring special actions in cutscenes
You know those heroic/ruthless mouse actions during cutscenes? Well for some of them if you just skip them they will open up a path to more dialog and possible points, usually for the opposite action that appeared up in the cutscene. For example the one where you encounter Mouse on the Citadel the first time. If you avoid beating him up you are allowed more Paragon dialog later. However, this is not always the case for all special actions. For example, the scene at Tuchanka while on the mission Mordin: Old Blood, skipping the ruthless action of blowing up a gas tank when a Blood Pact Krogan is yapping away will not open up any extra dialog.

tldr; So in short, don't always be too hasty in using those special actions.--Lord0din69 22:31, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's why the guide lists what happens when interrupts are not used. &mdash;Seburo 23:21, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Some Missing Numbers
Really appreciate this guide and the work done on it so far so I decided to add my two cents

Dossier: The Professor


 * Convincing the Guard to let you in gives 5 of either depending on the choice

Doctor Chakwas


 * After sharing the Ice Brandy and returning you get 2 Paragon for saying you'll save humanity and 2 Renegade for saying you'll get revenge. Didnt check what you get for saying your thoughts are your own.

Etarn Tiron (Vendor on the Citadel)


 * Similar to Deleia so perhaps that is why it was left out (5 Par for endorsment, 5 Renegade for Intimidating)

Al-Jilani Interview


 * 2 Paragon for either of the top two and 2 Renegade for the bottome one. 5 Renegade for interrupt and intimidate option if interrupt not used, 5 Paragon for Charm option if interrupt not used

The debrief with TIM after freedoms progress i believe gives 5 points for 3 further responses and 2 points for another beyond what is listed so far. I picked the listed paragon option, then told TIM its good to play nice, asked him what he wasnt telling me, if it was and order and agreed with him and i recieved a total of 17 paragon points and 2 renegade points. I believe the renegade points is for saying agreed as that was in the lower part of the wheel.

Also noticed a mystery renegade bonus on the Archangel mission somewhere between zapping cathka and returning to the Normandy.

Anyways hope this helps. Im using Gibbeds save editor to check my Paragon/Renegade scores along with following the Morality guide.

-Cheers

DaGawdfadda 05:07, February 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * You can check your paragon/renegade points in game if you want. You have to map "setparagon 0" and "setrenegade 0" using one of the methods I described higher up in this discussion under "Morality points before load screen". Using either of those commands will display the number of points it took to reduce you to 0, giving you the number you had. Just make sure to save before using it, because lack of a proper console won't let you reverse it. Much easier than going back and forth between programs though.--Karstedt 22:55, February 24, 2010 (UTC):


 * Thanks for the tip. I've avoided messing around with the "console" in ME2 exactly because there isnt a proper one. As mentioned in a past post there are post mission paragon/renegade points. Its confirmed for all missions up to Horizon so I think its safe to assume it applies to the rest as well. Speaking of Horizon. Your discussion with Kaiden has points associated with it. I went with a Paragon route saying "Its good to see you" "I've moved on" "Cerberus is not the enemy" "I'm not a traitor" "You're too emotional" "Join me". After this when you talk to Kelly she will ask how the meeting went. Saying "Fine" ends the the topic. Saying either "It went well" or "I miss him" leads Kelly to ask if you have strong feelings for Kaiden. If you say "Are you jeleouse" ends the topic, "No" you get 2 Renegade points, if you say "That is history" or "Yes" leads Kelly to say its hard to get over people at which points saying "Thank You" gets 2 Paragon or "No It's easy" gets 2 Renegade. I assume this only applies to a female or if its Williams who is encountered on Horizon if its a male. Also on Warlord you get 2 Paragon points for saying "Will he help" upon returning to find Okeer dead right before you depart on the shuttle. I suppose you get 2 Renegade points for saying "Is he worth the trouble?". Zaeeds Loyalty mission at the end after Zaeed is hit by debris. 2 Paragon each for "Are you hurt?" "I Dont want you on my ship" or 2 Renegade each for "You deserved that" "How can I trust you". Now if you use the Charm option you pick up an additional 7 Paragon points whereas if you say "On one condtion" you only get 2 Paragon points. The third conversation with Jack is confirmed for female as well except after asking any two of tattoos, relationships, or friends and then saying talk to you later Jack asks you why and you get 2 Paragon for saying "I find you fascinating". I supposed you get 2 Renegade for the alternate. On the Citadel there are 5 Paragon/Renegade points up for grabs when doing the Krogan Sushi quest. 5 Para for "There are no fish" 5 Renegade for lying. The merchant points are also available from Marab and Kian. Crime in progress you get 5 Paragon for completing the quest and 5 Paragon for the Interrupt. --DaGawdfadda 09:10, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

ME Bonus
By my calculations an imported ME character gets a bonus of 56% of their final Paragon/Renegade bars, where the bars are rounded up to their nearest milestone. For example: 19 points for 10%, 48 for 25%, 95 for 50%, 136 for 75%, and 190 for 100%. I haven't fully tested this theory, but I can confirm that I received 136 points of Paragon for a bar that was between 50% and 75% full. --ArmeniusLOD 21:03, February 25, 2010 (UTC)\

I had 629 Paragon and got 190 on import. That's how I figure 190 is the max. You'd have to check actual numbers and not percentages to find out the exact formula, as 100% is only 324/440 and you can get more than 600. Although, if 19/48/95/136/190 are the only possible import values, then it probably is based on the bar and not number.--Karstedt 12:49, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Dossier Missions Layout
The dossier missions should probably be changed so their layout is consistent with the Loyalty Missions, etc, unless there is some good reason for them being the way they are atm?

ie:

5. Dossier Missions

____5.1 The Professor

________5.1.1 Omega : The Professor: Missing Assistant

____5.2 Archangel

________5.2.1 Omega: Archangel: Datapad Recovered

____5.3 The Convict

...

6. Loyalty Missions

... Nialia 08:07, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Harkin:

2 Renegade: Ouch

+

2 Paragon: Be Reasonable

+

5 Paragon Interrupt

If Interrupt not used


 * 2 Paragon: That wasn’t necessary


 * 2 Renegade: Quit Complaining

In Cab

2 Paragon: You Okay?


 * 2 Paragon: I don’t Know




 * 2 Paragon: Give me a chance




 * 2 Paragon: Do you really believe that

2 Renegade: He’s not worth it


 * 2 Paragon: You sure about this


 * 2 Paragon: Give me a chance




 * 2 Paragon: Do you really believe that


 * 2 Renegade: You bet

Sidonis

2 Paragon: [Warn Sidonis]


 * 5 Paragon Interrupt


 * 2 Paragon: [Keep Talking]


 * 15 Paragon: Don’t do it


 * 2 Paragon: You’re Lucky


 * 2 Renegade: Leave


 * 15 Renegade: [Let Garrus Shoot]


 * 15 Renegade: I can’t help you


 * 15 Renegade: [Let Garrus Shoot]

2 Renegade: [Move to the Side]


 * 2 Paragon: [Warn Sidonss]


 * 5 Paragon Interrupt


 * 2 Paragon: [Keep Talking]


 * 15 Paragon: Don’t do it


 * 2 Paragon: You’re Lucky


 * 15 Renegade: [Let Garrus Shoot]


 * 15 Renegade: I can’t help you


 * 15 Renegade: [Let Garrus Shoot]


 * 15 Renegade: [Let Garrus Shoot]

If Sidonis is Alive

2 Paragon: It’s for the best

+

2 Paragon: I understand

+

2 Paragon: Trust Your Heart

If Sidonis is Dead

2 Renegade: You done with this

Hope this is helpful

DaGawdfadda 11:18, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Garrus Loyalty
Harkin:

2 Renegade: Ouch

+

2 Paragon: Be Reasonable

+

5 Paragon Interrupt

If Interrupt not used


 * 2 Paragon: That wasn’t necessary


 * 2 Renegade: Quit Complaining

In Cab

2 Paragon: You Okay?


 * 2 Paragon: I don’t Know




 * 2 Paragon: Give me a chance




 * 2 Paragon: Do you really believe that

2 Renegade: He’s not worth it


 * 2 Paragon: You sure about this


 * 2 Paragon: Give me a chance




 * 2 Paragon: Do you really believe that


 * 2 Renegade: You bet

Sidonis

2 Paragon: [Warn Sidonis]


 * 5 Paragon Interrupt


 * 2 Paragon: [Keep Talking]


 * 15 Paragon: Don’t do it


 * 2 Paragon: You’re Lucky


 * 2 Renegade: Leave


 * 15 Renegade: [Let Garrus Shoot]


 * 15 Renegade: I can’t help you


 * 15 Renegade: [Let Garrus Shoot]

2 Renegade: [Move to the Side]


 * 2 Paragon: [Warn Sidonss]


 * 5 Paragon Interrupt


 * 2 Paragon: [Keep Talking]


 * 15 Paragon: Don’t do it


 * 2 Paragon: You’re Lucky


 * 15 Renegade: [Let Garrus Shoot]


 * 15 Renegade: I can’t help you


 * 15 Renegade: [Let Garrus Shoot]


 * 15 Renegade: [Let Garrus Shoot]

If Sidonis is Alive

2 Paragon: It’s for the best

+

2 Paragon: I understand

+

2 Paragon: Trust Your Heart

If Sidonis is Dead

2 Renegade: You done with this

Hope this is helpful

DaGawdfadda 11:19, March 6, 2010 (UTC)