Talk:Liara T'Soni

Trivia versus Mass Effect 2 information
I keep seeing ME2 facts in the Trivia section of articles. ME2 information is not trivia. If it's being added to articles, it should be under a separate heading and spoiler tagged. We have a shiny new tag for this:. --Tullis 05:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Weapon Skill
Is she really completely untrained in weapons? I thought she could use the pistol. But then it's true that she has no skill to enhance this weapon. What I'm wondering is this: is it better that she is told to use the pistol, or it doesn't make any difference since she is equally bad with all weapons?


 * She is trained in pistols but can't enhance them via talents... Sorta like Kaiden if you think about it. Jax Montag 08:40, January 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Except Kaidan's class skill provides a bonus to pistol skill, and a not insubstantial one (roughly equivalent to 3 or 4 points in Pistols IIRC, though without Marksman). ShadowRanger 13:22, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Formatting
thanks, tullis. this formating is pain in the ass. this wikia engine is really weird - got any advice on where i can read more about this stuff? i'd appreciate that. LLlaxmep 19:32, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * You could try the Wikia Help page, it's a good site with lots of helpful resources, and it is "straight from the horses mouth", as it were. SpartHawg948 19:36, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * See also Mass Effect Wiki Style Guide. I would also suggest, if you're using the rich text editor, that you turn that thing off. The standard editor doesn't have bells and whistles, but if you've done wiki editing before (and I know you have) it makes your life a lot easier. The rich text editor messes up page formatting something chronic. --Tullis 20:03, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * of course that rich text thingie is off for me - it's awful, and even if it did work properly i'd still prefer good ol' text'n'tags.
 * either way, thanks for the advice. i've been fooling around with liara page some more and i think i'm gettind used to the way wikia behaves. LLlaxmep 20:28, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Mass Effect 2 Miranda Video
http://masseffect.bioware.com/universe/characters/miranda/

Pause the video at 0:07. Does that look like Liara to anybody else? She's even wearing the same scientist outfit.--Aldrius 23:00, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

No It isn't her but good eye.-Cole

That bit about Liara on the Normandy - ME2 Spoilers
I think it's subjective to saves that are loaded. In the new N7 Development Diary, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlCleak2alo 3:11 to the end) Ashley is seen instead of Liara doing all the same things. It appears that whoever is on the Normandy as it explodes will be based on who is alive and who was your love interest. Say you are a FemShep then it would be Kaidan had you pursued and achieved a relationship with him.--Xaero Dumort 18:04, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

Deadly
Wow, Liara has changed since the last game. She's fierce. Like a tiger!


 * Cold. Like a divorcee.


 * Is it just me, or does she sound different in the second game? Also, why does she look so ill? Is it just because she is older?--Marshmallow2166 17:52, February 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * However they designed her in the second game, she does look pale, The lair of the shadow broker dlc seems to adress this as she has a darker blue complecxtion and darker blue eyes.--Gdubs 11:22, January 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * She sounds different. I thought is was cute when you walk in on her using her bully voice, and she briefly reverts to her regular voice when she notices you.--Karstedt 07:33, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Her Father on Illium?


Anybody notice that discussions with the Asari matriarch bartender revealed that she "even had a pureblood daughter" as the "father" and that it didn't work out well, given the apparent rarity of pureblood offspring and the age of the bartender (similar to Benezia) I wonder the likelihood that this could be Liara's father. Of course she made disparaging comments about Benezia speaking about how there are worse things for an Asari matriarch to do than be a bartender. Raitchison 16:11, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that "disparaging comment" was directed at Benezia, rather the Matriarch's and the Citadel fleet where the one she was refering to. she says "our ship were bare-assed" just after that line, so shes more talking about how the fleet wasn't ready for a real war. In fact, outside Liara, no one mentions Benezia. Its possible the Council covered up her involvement with Saren, as it would not be credible that he could take them by suprise like he did if they knew he already gathered powerful allies. Ironreaper 04:19, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Er, could be wrong but if her father was half-krogan and that visibly different (btw this character is the coolest damn side character ever in ME), that would make Liara a quarter-krogan... I'm no expert on Asari breeding, but I don't think Liara would be so proper if she had that much Krogan in her. I was all excited about Samara possibly being her father, until she mentioned that all her daughters are (obvious spoiler). Double-damn.Revdrkevind 17:04, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Liara also has more than a touch of badass in her, it just took Shepard to bring that out. I wouldn't discount the possibility of the bartender being Liara's dad... I just also wouldn't be surprised if it didn't turn out to be the case. You'd think one of them would mention it. Twilsemail 17:29, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Asari matriarch bartender is seen watching a picture of liara witch strongly sugests that they have a close conection NordicLord 21:56, September 8, 2010 (UTC)NordicLord
 * She's looking at a picture of "liara witch"?!? Liara is a WITCH!?!?!? When did that happen! And more importantly, BURN HER!!! :P SpartHawg948 23:16, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

She was born 2077, the year off the nuclear holocaust in the Fallout series.

Haha, true, but I honestly don't think Mass Effect has anything to do with Fallout. They're both two completely different, yet brilliant franchises. The Yoshiman 97 06:42, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed. And while it would be great to see a crossover between the franchises, the fact that Mass Effect is a BioWare franchise and Fallout is Bethesda does tend to kind of cast doubt on that ever happening, mores the pity. SpartHawg948 06:44, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I can see it now. After a devastating galaxy wide battle with the reapers, survivors must go underground to take shelter. 50 years later, Shepard III must journey forth from an underground bunker to find a new water filter before the habitat runs dry. He finds a wasteland of mutant husks and derelict space craft under the watchful eye of a reaper still harvesting the planet.--Karstedt 07:40, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Bioware would ever take the series in that direction. EVER. sorry The Yoshiman 97 02:34, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

Lair of the Shadow Broker that would seem to provide proof that Aethyta is Laira's "father." The video section of the Shadow Broker base provides a short video clip of Aethyta sitting, staring, and viewing a picture of an Asari who looks shockingly like Liara. I've attached an image of the moment. I think the Wiki pages for Liara and Aethyta should be touched up for this, but wonder what the best way to present the info is.RyuConnor 23:43, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably the way we've already handled it would work best. In addition, please don't attach images directly to the headlines, as it screws up the formatting. SpartHawg948 23:45, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sorry about the image. Was trying to fix that about the time you corrected it.  For the moment the articles in question make no mention of this present item.  Are you saying it's still not worth adding to their biography at this time?RyuConnor 23:51, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * What would we add to Liara's biography? That at some point in time, Matriarch Aethyta looked at a picture of her? Because that's literally all the new info we have from that video. Ditto for Aetheyta. Should we add a bit about how she once looked at a picture of another notable asari on Illium for a little bit? It's noted in the proper location (i.e. the Video Archive article), I don't see any need to note the picture viewing habits of Aethyta in her article, and certainly not in Liara's. SpartHawg948 23:53, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the story writers are trying to lead us to a conclusion. How straight a view we want to take is my question, which you've answered.  You don't find it compelling evidence and so no edits needs to be made to the primary article and thus this talk page has served a purpose to save us all some time. RyuConnor 23:57, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we do treat this as an encyclopedia, and the duty of an encyclopedia is not to interpret information and jump to conclusions, no matter how reasonable they may seem (to some). It's to present facts. And right now, the facts don't support the statement that Aethyta is Liara's other parent. The few facts we do know suggest that it's possible, but that's it. SpartHawg948 00:00, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * If the duty is to present FACTS, why does any mention of Aethyta pining at Liara's portrait get deleted? Surely it's a FACT, same as Aethyta having a pureblood daughter from a relationship that didn't work out, and Liara being a pureblood who doesn't know her "father". --Shadow User 23:17, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because some of those facts aren't strictly relevant. I must say though, your last comment is a bit disingenuous. You claim that the fact that Liara is a pureblood who doesn't know her father is not presented here. It is. And the fact that Aethyta has a pureblood daughter she doesn't know is presented in her article, as is a link to the article that details the fact that she is seen looking at an image of Liara. The fact that Aethyta has a pureblood daughter she doesn't know has no relevance to the Liara article, nor does the fact that Aethyta looks once at a picture of Liara, at least not without some knowledge of why this is. It's a one-off with no context that is as notable as any other random character mentioning her once. SpartHawg948 23:22, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * This strikes as a Chekov's Gun. If the writers are worth their salt well discus this one more time before the end. :). RyuConnor 00:30, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Umm....this discussion might be closed, but IMO the video in the DLC is all the evidence we're going to get, short of a straightforward dialogue with Liara or Aethyta inquiring about their relation. I think it will be fitting if the info is added to the trivia section in both articles....something along the lines of,"According to the latest DLC, it is possible that.....". Just my bit and two. IP no. 59.95.169.10 05:45, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * But it was possible even before the latest DLC. It's literally no more or less possible now. SpartHawg948 05:50, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * This won't be the last insight into Aethyta. "If in Act I you have a pistol hanging on the wall, then it must fire in the last act".  Mark my words, that picture frame will shoot someone. RyuConnor 06:43, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt that we'll hear more. And I'm looking forward to it. We just do need a bit more before we can add it. Right now all we really have is circumstantial evidence. SpartHawg948 06:49, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is hard evidence. Aethyta has a photo of Liara to which she secretly drinks. Liara is known to have an estranged Asari "father". Occam's Razor says Aethyta = Liara's father. There is no other reasonable explanation for Aethyta to have Liara's portrait, and for BioWare to put this video into LotSB. This has to be in the wiki, particularly because some players may have missed the reference.
 * It's circumstantial evidence. Hard evidence would be something that actually confirms that Aethyta is Liara's "father", not something that merely suggests it. Also, please note that Ockham's Razor (often misspelled, as it is here, as "Occam's Razor", despite the fact that it is intended to be named after its creator, William of Ockham) demands nothing, nor does it say anything. The common misconception is that Ockham's Razor states that "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one". This is not the case. Remember that Ockham conceived of the theory to demonstrate that belief in God is not logical, despite the fact that attributing things to divine will is often the "simplest explanation". Ockham's Razor actually states that the simplest theory that introduces the least assumptions is the best. In this case, IMO, this cannot be said of the theory that Aethyta is Liara's "father". SpartHawg948 20:02, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * First off, cut the patronizing tone. Second, the PREFERRED spelling is "Occam's razor" (see Webster's, Wikipedia etc.). Third, "simplest explanation" is a perfectly valid interpretation of "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity". Finally, in the present case, the SIMPLEST explanation to all the facts (Aethyta having an estranged pureblood daughter, Liara being a pureblood and estranged from her "father", Aethyta actually living in close proximity of Liara's whereabouts, and looking at a framed photo of Liara while drinking alone) is that Aethyta is Liara's father, period. Anything else, and you have to invent far-fetched explanations starting with WHY would A. have L. portrait and WHY BioWare thought it necessary to include this info in their Liara-focused DLC, which goes against the principle of Occam's razor. Oh and since you're here, maybe you could explain why the references to the FACT of A. watching L.'s portrait keep disappearing from both L. and A.'s wiki entries.
 * Yup. Because there is clearly nothing plausible about the possibility of two asari who live and work in close proximity to each other having any sort of relationship other than one being the parent of the other. Sorry guy, but it is speculation. And as such, it is not suitable for the article. Look - if it's so self-evident and obvious that Aethyta is Liara's other parent, then it should be a simple enough matter for you to cite conclusive proof, as opposed to circumstantial and subjective evidence. Can you do that? SpartHawg948 21:11, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * As a Matriarch, it is unlikely that Aethyta would be romantically interested in Liara. Focused on the Shadow broker, Liara even cut emotional ties to Shepard, so it is unlikely she would pursue a romantic relationship (with a Matriarch bartender, no less) at this point. Also, due to Asari customs and personal history, Liara wouldn't favor a relationship with another Asari. Finally, it is unlikely that even if there was something between them, the battle-scarred half-krogan Aethyta would be so affected as to pine in loneliness drinking to her "love"'s portrait. And, of course, neither A. nor L. mention such a "fling", although both talk about having a daughter and a "father" respectively. Unlikely times unlikely times unlikely = implausible. As to "conclusive proof", BioWare already did that with the video. At the very least, the reference to the video should be in L. and A's entries.
 * Wow. I say " Because there is clearly nothing plausible about the possibility of two asari who live and work in close proximity to each other having any sort of relationship other than one being the parent of the other." and you jump to the conclusion that the only other possible relationship they could have is romance? I was actually referring to the prospect of them being friends, colleagues, chums, associates, etc. Wow. Talk about out of left field... they have to either be parent and offspring, or else lovers? Weird... SpartHawg948 22:46, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Friends, colleagues, chums, associates" is even less plausible because, for starters, there would be no reason for Aethyta to spend her evenings drinking & looking at Liara's portrait (which implies deep emotional connection + strong regret). Second, if their relationship was of such shallow/inconsequential nature and had no relation to the story, there would be no reason for BioWare to show us this video. On the contrary, A. being L.'s "father" makes perfect sense from the story perspective and is the only theory that effortlessly fits into all the facts. The Wiki entry should have a reference to the video.--Shadow User 23:02, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * So you keep saying. Yet you can offer nothing other than subjective opinions of what seems more or less plausible to you. Come up with a real, objective reason. One that doesn't rely on what you think of it, but can stand on its own two feet. SpartHawg948 23:05, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * The objective reason is Aethyta shown to be drinking alone with Liara's portrait, coupled with prior knowledge of Aethyta and Liara's family history. If you can't see it, it's your problem. You have no substantial reason to delete the reference to the video, because it is not speculation and because it carries a vital piece of HARD DATA which is highly relevant to Liara's personal history. The reader can draw his own conclusions, but it is the Wiki's job to provide him with facts. A job which is seemingly being obstructed here.--Shadow User 23:26, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok. Here. I will give you a golden opportunity. The opportunity to end this right now, in your favor. All you have to do (and this shoud be easy) is back up one of your claims without speculation. You claim that the fact that we see Aethyta looking at a picture of Liara contains a "vital piece of HARD DATA which is highly relevant to Liara's personal history." Now, without resorting to speculation, what vital piece of hard date that is highly relevant to Liara's personal history is carried within the fact that we once see Aethyta looking at a picture of Liara. SpartHawg948 23:34, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * My claim is that the video provides a valuable insight into Liara's personal history by showing a deep emotional connection between Liara and Aethyta (FACT #1). We know that Liara has an Asari "father" whom she does not know personally (FACT #2). We also know that Aethyra has an estranged pureblood daughter from a failed relationship (FACT #3). #1 is important and relevant by itself; with 2 and 3, it becomes even more important and relevant. We already knew of a possible connection between Aethyta and Liara; now we are presented with objective evidence that there really is a connection, and a deeply personal one. If you don't want to make the final step, fine; but the readers deserve to know the FACTS, so that they can draw their own conclusions about what is probably the biggest mystery of Liara's past. And this info should't be tucked away in obscure entries or on discussion pages; it should be right here in Liara and Aethyta's entries. Dixi. --Shadow User 00:14, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * But again, as I point out below, it does not demonstrate "a deep emotional connection between Liara and Aethyta". If anything, it shows a one-way connection from Aethyta to Liara. In order to show a deep emotional connection between them, there would have to be some indication Liara is even aware of Aethyta. There is none. So much for fact #1. And after "Fact #1" is negated, the other two become circumstantial evidence that is already noted in the appropriate locations. Care to try again? Just a reminder, you need to show how the video itself (and what is shown in the video, nothing more) shows a vital piece of hard data highly relevant to Liara's personal history. No speculation, please. SpartHawg948 00:22, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * You keep forgetting that Liara does not know her "father". So the connection could only be one-way. You have failed to disprove me, and only strengthened my point. So, I call you on your "golden opportunity" to "end this right now". Let's see if you're a man of your word. --Shadow User 00:39, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) That isn't evidence, it's just more speculation. "We already knew of a possible connection between Aethyta and Liara", what connection was that? It is based solely on speculation and a few statements that can be applied to other asari, not just Liara. We have only circumstantial evidence and speculation, not concrete facts. Your “facts” are speculation in of themselves and again can you provide solid proof, i.e beyond a reasonable doubt that Aethyta is Liara’s father, based on the above statement no. We have no proof beyond what is already stated, which is the facts. People can read the Video Archive page and look at the archive itself and draw their own conclusions. Putting things in the articles that says what you want it to say would be biased information, and that is something we can’t support as it is nothing more or less than speculation. This information, no matter how it is presented is biased and speculation, and as such doesn’t belong in either Liara’s or Aeythta’s articles. You have no solid proof, just your interpretations, that not everyone may share. There are other possible explanations, and you just keep dismissing them. The information doesn’t belong in the article as it is speculation. Lancer1289 00:27, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * The INFORMATION (which I have enumerated as Facts #1-3) is not "speculation" but cold hard facts taken verbatim from the game. Whether or not this information proves conclusively that Aethyta is indeed Liara's "father" is for the reader to decide; but because of its importance, the information itself should be available in the character entries. The video proves that what was previously only a possible connection, is a very real, very strong, and apparently "one-way" connection between Aethyta and Liara, which meshes perfectly with what was previously known about their families. This should not be hidden away in obscure entries such as the Video Archive (you have to buy the DLC and find the video archive to even know to look for that entry). There is nothing biased in mentioning the video on Liara and Aethyta's pages, it's just a statement of fact. On the contrary, deleting such a reference, both with and without family history context, seems like a very biased thing to do when even the most basic facts are suppressed in order to promote a personal viewpoint. --Shadow User 00:57, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * "My claim is that the video provides a valuable insight into Liara's personal history by showing a deep emotional connection between Liara and Aethyta (FACT #1)" Ok. Show me where it says this verbatim in-game. Should be easy to do, right? If it's verbatim, I mean. SpartHawg948 00:58, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, please note that your "Fact #3" is also itself based on speculation, as opposed to what is stated in-game. You claim: "Aethyra has an estranged pureblood daughter from a failed relationship (FACT #3)" In actuality, Aethyta never mentions estrangement from the daughter, nor that the relationship failed. She says "even had a pureblood daughter. I was the father. Didn't work out." Can't find mention there of this supposed estrangement, or that she doesn't know her daughter, or anything like that. Odd... I thought your "facts" were lifted verbatim from the game? SpartHawg948 01:04, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * What, you've got nothing else to say but argue about semantics? A last resort, indeed! The relationship didn't work out = failed. Liara doesn't know her "father", Aethyta having a daughter didn't work out = estranged. Entire scene with Aethyta drinking alone looking at portrait of Liara = deep personal connection (cf. Shepard keeping Liara's portrait on his table if they had a relationship in ME1). You're out of arguments, and have been for the last 3 posts. Are you going to keep your bargain or not?--Shadow User 01:25, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not arguing semantics. It's pointing out that you are making up "facts" out of whole cloth! She never specifies what didn't work out, yet you presumptuously assume that it must be both the relationship with the mother and with the daughter! Nor does she EVER state that she does not know her daughter and/or vice versa, one of the central points upon which your entire argument is based! Pointing out fabrication of evidence is not synonymous with being "out of arguments". I always keep my bargains, but the other party has to live up to their end before they receive the payout, and you have not, plain and simple. SpartHawg948 01:29, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * My argument is based on the fact that LIARA DOES NOT KNOW HER "FATHER", not that Aethyta does not know her daughter (which would be stupid, since Aethyta obviously knows Liara). What you did just now was one of the least respected moves in debate - you invented a silly claim which I never made (that Aethyta doesn't know her daughter), attributed it to me (i.e. lied), and then proceeded to disprove it, claiming victory over an enemy that didn't exist in the first place. It's called "Strawman", you can look it up on Wikipedia. When someone resorts to a move like that, it usually means continuation of discussion is pointless, as every pretense of civility is shed and the opponent tries to "win" by any cost. What's amusing is that despite such tactics, you still insist that you keep your deals. Sorry, but with such attitude an "honorable" debate is impossible. Ciao.--Shadow User 02:33, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * And my argument was not that Aethyta does not know her daughter, but that there is no indication that Aethyta's daughter does not know her "father", or that she is estranged from Aethyta, as you claim she is. "estranged pureblood daughter", I believe you called Aethyta's daughter, when there is no evidence for this in-game. A piece of info presented as fact with no factual underpinning is "made up". As for strawmen, you would seem to be intimately familiar with them, as I point out below. After all, you claim that I argue that "seeing a person in a bar constitutes a relationship", when nothing of the sort ever happened. Practice what you preach. Don't harp on others for doing what you yourself have been doing. SpartHawg948 02:40, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed we need hard evidence, which this isn't. There are many explanations as to why Aethyta could have a picture of Liara, all of which seem to be quickly dismissed. Until we have hard evidence, we can't say anything nor will we. Suggestions aren't facts and a vague video isn't the hard evidence we require for proof. Lancer1289 20:44, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is nothing vague about this video. In fact, if memory serves, it uses the same photo as on Shepard's desk. It's clearly Liara, and in light of the other facts this is about as conclusive as it can get without actually saying it out loud. The Wiki entries for both Liara and Aethyta should at the very least have a reference to this video, so that the readers can decide for themselves whether this constitutes conclusive proof.
 * Really because there are many other conclusions that one could draw form the video, so again thanks for dismissing them all. We have no solid proof and until we do, we can't, and won't change anything. Also as for the picture, maybe BioWare didn't want to make a new one so they reused it. That is another equally logical conclusion. Since you are so evident to get it onto the article, find some facts that prove it. Until then, there will be no mention. Also why they keep disappearing, because it is a needless repeat of information, also somewhat biased IMO. Lancer1289 21:11, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * What other conclusions could you reasonably draw except this one, which falls in with what we already know about both Liara and Aethyta. And this piece of info is about as "needless" as the rest of the article (which also repeats known facts for the sake of universal knowledge). And the information about Aethyta drinking with Liara's portrait is just as important as anything else in the wiki, especially so since it very obviously hints at the identity of Liara's "father".
 * All right, this is officially getting weird. A reference to the video, without any positive statement about whether or not Aethyta is Liara's "father", gets deleted. Why? Someone doesn't want people to know about the existence of this video?

(edit conflict) Yes. That's right. You caught us! Good for you! We don't want anyone to know. That's why there isn't an article about the Video Archive, as that would mention it. That's why there isn't a screenshot on this very page in this very thread showing Aethyta looking at Liara. Look, the thing is: If there's proof that Aethyta is Liara's "father", then of course it would be mentioned in the article. But there isn't. And a trivia blurb stating that "In Lair of the Shadow Broker, Aethyta is shown drinking alone with a portrait of Liara on her table." is as relevant and as worthy of trivia as pointing out that, in Mass Effect 2 pre-LOTSB, Joker has dialogue about Liara. It's a random blurb that. in the absence of facts giving meaning, is completely useless here. SpartHawg948 22:54, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * A reference to the video is not "speculation", nor is it irrelevant to the article. There doesn't seem to be any reason for deleting it.--Shadow User 22:50, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

How is it relevant? What makes it more noteworthy than the fact that Joker comments on Liara in ME2? Devoid of any greater meaning or context (which would be speculation), a random blurb pointing out that Aethyta looks at a picture of Liara once is irrelevant. SpartHawg948 22:56, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * The previous edit DID provide context (noting that Aethyta was known to have a pureblood daughter, and the existence of Liara's father having already been mentioned in the wiki). That edit got deleted AS WELL. And providing context does not amount to "speculation", it is just grouping relevant facts together. As to the value of the underlying information (identity of Liara's father), it is obviously much higher than Joker's comments about Liara, and definitely worthy to be reflected in the wiki, at least in the form of a reference to the video. --Shadow User 23:17, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * So you're still trying to get around our speculation policy then. Putting a trivia note there is not relevant as it is a needless repeat of information and you are still speculating. We don't know that Aethyta is Liara's "father" and you keep saying that it is won't change that. You have yet to provide any solid evidence on the matter, and merely keep trying to use circumstantial evidence to bolster your claim. Please provide solid evidence to back up your claim and then we can look at that, like how you’ve been asked now several times to provide. As to noting that Aethyta is looking at a picture of Liara, while it was stated already, how is that relevant to the article? It isn’t because it’s irrelevant. Lancer1289 23:27, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not "trying to get around" anything (what's with the Gestapo talk, anyway?), I am just following the rules. As a trivia, this FACT is just as relevant as the other trivia, because it shows a deep interpersonal connection between Aethyta and Liara. Joined with the other FACTS about Liara and Aethyta family history, it becomes even more valuable because it OPENLY demonstrates a relationship between the two, as opposed to coincidental data we had previously, and thus reinforces this previous data. If you consider anything short of direct verbal admission to be "speculation", so be it; but it doesn't mean we should hide the FACTS from readers. Not everyone has bought the "Lair of the Shadow Broker" DLC; of those who have, not everyone saw this particular video; of those who saw the video, not everyone recognised Aethyta or recalled that she said to have a pureblood daughter from a failed relationship. All in all, not that many people would have all the facts. But a great many people are interested in the identity of Liara's "father". For them, this information would be interesting, and the Wiki should not deny it to them.--Shadow User 23:50, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

But it doesn't show "a deep and interpersonal connection between Aethyta and Liara". At absolute best, it shows a deep and personal one-way connection from Aethyta to Liara. No indication is given that the connection is two ways. And no, it does not openly demonstrate a relationship between the two. It shows Aethyta looking at a picture of Liara. Know what would openly demonstrate a relationship between the two? ANY INTERACTION BETWEEN THEM. You are really reading way too much into this. SpartHawg948 23:54, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course it's a one-way connection, Liara doesn't know her "father"! See, you're inadvertently supporting my point. As to their possible meeting and interaction, it may or may not have given evidence: Aethyta works near Liara's residence, which is likely not a coincidence, and it may be that she has decided not to reveal her identity to Liara yet. In case of a casual meeting (e.g. Shepard arrives in the bar with Liara in tow), Aethyta could pretend they were strangers. But alone in her office, she doesn't hide their relationship, nor the strong feelings of regret (or worry for the apparently kidnapped Liara) - and this is what BioWare decided to show us. --Shadow User 00:33, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Inadvertently supporting your point... please. I'm merely demonstrating that you are reading way too much into this, as evidenced by your claim that it "OPENLY demonstrates a relationship between the two". Right. Or the claim that "it shows a deep interpersonal connection between Aethyta and Liara". Sure. It shows no connection, or relationship, or anything of the sort. It shows Aethyta looking at a picture. Nothing more. Any further meaning you read into it is just that. SpartHawg948 00:40, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Now this is just denial. By your logic, seeing two persons having sex does not imply they're in a relationship - they're only having sex. If someone puts flowers on a grave and stands there crying, it doesn't mean any relationship to the deceased - it's merely a person who likes to cry on graves as a hobby. If someone has a framed picture of a person on his or her desk, this doesn't imply a close and personal relationship... well, BioWare disagrees. Shepard only gets Liara's portrait on his desk if he romanced Liara in ME1. The fact that BioWare shows us Aethyta having Liara's portrait on her desk implies a close and personal relationship. Deal with it. Now, this is the second time you've failed to disprove me, and was disproved in turn by a canon example. What about that "golden opportunity"? --Shadow User 01:11, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Of course two people having sex would demonstrate a relationship. The two people are together, and are interacting. I myself said that if we saw Liara and Aethyta interacting, that would definitely constitute a relationship of some sort. Stop twisting my words. Someone sitting alone at a table looking at a picture of someone else does not demonstrate that those two people have a relationship. Comparing this to two people having sex is ludicrous in the extreme. Ditto for comparing it to someone standing over the grave of another and weeping. Now, as to your "Shep and Liara's pic" analogy. I thought you already ruled out a Liara/Aethyta romance? Because that's what you seem to be implying by comparing Aethyta having Liara's pic to Shep having it if Liara was romanced in ME. I have not failed to disprove you, because you have failed to nullify the crux of my argument: There is no canon evidence of the relationship you insist exists between the two of them. And yes, my golden opportunity still stands. The burden is on you to make something of it. SpartHawg948 01:17, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've already made a lot of it, so far you've failed to disprove my arguments. You haven't even replied to my key posts. You keep making empty semantic sidetracks which are irrelevant to the discussion. And your logic here is absolutely outlandish. If Liara came to Aethyta's bar and bought a drink, that wouldn't mean she has any sort of relationship with the bartender. But if someone keeps a person's portrait on his or her desk, that's an obious sign of a deep and personal relationship. Do you keep a portrait of anyone on your desk? If not, do you carry a photo of someone in your wallet? If not, do you know any people who do? Are these portraits and photos of complete strangers, or of those with close and personal relationship to the bearer? Shepard keeping a picture of Liara on his desk is a case in point - this is how BioWare sees the significance of such portraits. No one would keep portraits of complete strangers on their desk, much less spend time alone looking at them and drinking. Such is only reasonably possible towards images of loved ones. Romantic partner, wife, child or parent are viable candidates. Or do they do it differently where you're from? --Shadow User 02:04, September 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * And just to remind you, since you seem to have forgotten, the golden opportunity wasn't predicated on you demonstrating a relationship between Liara and Aethyta (not that this matters, as you have thus far failed to even accomplish that). It required you to: "back up one of your claims without speculation. You claim that the fact that we see Aethyta looking at a picture of Liara contains a "vital piece of HARD DATA which is highly relevant to Liara's personal history. Now, without resorting to speculation, what vital piece of hard date that is highly relevant to Liara's personal history is carried within the fact that we once see Aethyta looking at a picture of Liara." SpartHawg948 01:21, September 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have laid out my case, using actual facts from the game. Your reasons for denying it were either openly refuted ("one-way connection"), pointlessly semantical ("verbatim", not even from my statement of position but from my discussion with Lancer), or manifestly illogical (seeing a person in a bar constitutes a relationship, but having a person's portrait on your desk and spending time looking at it and drinking does not imply one), despite opposing evidence provided by BioWare itself (Shepard keeping portrait of Liara). Still you show no inclination of admitting the slightest fallacy in your judgment. I believe this discussion shed good light on both your ability to defend your consistent deletion of relevant data from the Wiki entry, and your personal dedication to honoring your obligations. Anyone visiting this page will see it (unless, of course, you go so far as to delete your own posts). That is enough for me. --Shadow User 02:04, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Way to dodge the fact that I flat-out called you out on MAKING UP a key part of your case. Don't bother answering that point. Of course. Dismiss it as semantics, or claim that you disproved it. You MADE UP the bit about Aethyta and her daughter not knowing each other. But let's not dwell on your fabrications, which shed good light on your ability to honestly and straightforwardly argue a case. Anyone visiting this page will see that you have not even come close to touching upon the issue I asked you to address as the requirement for my golden opportunity. They will note your dishonest tactics and inability to make a case and answer simple points and questions. You have simply failed to make your case. Nothing more, nothing less. You make up arguments that you then allege I made (such as claiming that I stated that "seeing a person in a bar constitutes a relationship"), and you have displayed a glaring inability to consider anything other than your own preconceived notions. My offer stands. Demonstrate how a brief snippet of video showing Matriarch Aethyta looking at (not pining over, as we can't see her facial expressions, and she doesn't even move, negating body language interpretation) a picture of Liara that is sitting on her desk (see here at 1:48) in any way shows a "vital piece of HARD DATA which is highly relevant to Liara's personal history." Not Aethyta's history, which it would be if it's only an unknown one-way relationship, but Liara's personal history. And please, if you wish to continue arguing this, do so honestly from now on. No more making things up or twisting the words of others to suit your purposes, or inventing "facts" or arguments out of whole cloth. SpartHawg948 02:26, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * You've gone so far as to repeat your lie about what I said, and actually made a huge post of it. Amazing. I'll reply just because of the sheer effort you've made in disproving something I NEVER SAID. THAT'S RIGHT, ONCE AGAIN, I NEVER SAID AETHYTA DIDN'T KNOW HER DAUGHTER. Your huge rant above is based on a lie. And even in this case, when you've made such an obvious mistake (and insulted me repeatedly along the way), you'll never admit you're wrong. Come on, rant some more. The viewers will be pleased... perhaps. Myself, I'm outta here.--Shadow User 02:47, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Gotcha. It's cool for you to use strawman attacks, but not for others to make legitimate arguments that you mischaracterize as strawmen. If you'll note, I point out your own little example of a strawman. But you don't feel the need to comment on that, do you? Fair enough. Again, as stated above, my issue with your claim is that you made up the fact that Aethyta and her daughter are estranged. After all, while Liara doesn't know her father, nothing in-game indicates that this is the case with Aethyta's daughter. Nothing. Nada. As for you being "outta here", well, that's up to you, of course. You know where to find me if you want to make more strawmen and then accuse me of being the one doing it. SpartHawg948 02:56, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) And what does that prove, yes you get a picture of your ME romance on Shepard's desk, however you have just stretched the example to the point of breaking, and twisted Spart's words, and probably my own, by saying that a picture implies a personal relationship. People can have pictures of other people for any number of reason so thanks for again dismissing every other possibility apart from the one that agrees with your "evidence". Until you can demonstrate a canon relationship between Liara and Aethyta, this argument is going nowhere. You continue to use speculation to backup your arguments, and again speculation isn’t allowed for a good reason. You have yet again failed to provide any other evidence to back up your claims apart from speculation. Provide some hard evidence to back up your claims and please don’t provide more speculation, which is what you have been doing up to this point. Lancer1289 01:25, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Thanks for even more speculative info. How do you know that Liara was there first? Because Liara had to have gotten there somewhere between Redemption and ME2, a two year period. And you are also pinterperatt the devs meant. Do you know that this is what they meant? Becuase if yo do then pelase share where you got the information from.::He is not supporting your point becuase again there are ma ny other reasons that Aethyta could have a picture of Liara, and you seems to keep dodging those. You have also provided a copmletely specuative scenario athat if anything weakens your case because you can't support it. Again please find hard evidnce and not string together specualtion and call it fact because it isn't. Lancer1289 00:41, September 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I gave you the THREE FACTS. You choose to IGNORE THEM. Your mantric claims of "speculation" could only apply to the last logical step that stems out of the THREE FACTS, but you have no foot to stand on in denying the reference to the FACTS THEMSELVES in the character entries. Yet you insist on deleting even a simple reference to the video. I did not "dodge" anything, but directly disproved other possible scenarios, and neither you not SpartHawg had anything to object except spamming "you're wrong", "it's speculation", and "the portrait doesn't mean anything" when it very clearly does. To continue this "discussion" would be pointless. I contend myself with knowing that people visiting this page will have an opportunity to see and learn from it.--Shadow User 02:20, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

I think that pointing out that one of your three facts is speculation, and another is just plain MADE UP falls outside of your characterization of our arguments as "spamming "you're wrong", "it's speculation", and "the portrait doesn't mean anything". I mean, that's 2/3 of your facts right there, either speculation or just plain made up! And yes, at least people who visit this page will see that, and will hopefully learn that you can't win arguments by making things up and then citing them as evidence. SpartHawg948 02:30, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Aethyta's paternal relationship with Liara is as heavily implied as possible without slapping the player in the face with it. Even if you believe otherwise, the information should be presented on their individual wikis noting the possibility of such a connection. As obvious as it was, maybe some people didn't catch it; any possible connections really should be included in the entries so that readers can draw conclusions of their own. I have to say, I'm surprised that there's a half a book's worth of bickering over this subject -- just include it and be done with it.
 * And why should we include it? Because we do have that speculation policy that prevents that. All we have is a bunch of circumstantial evidence and Aethyta looking at a picture of Liara, so what does that prove. Could Aethyta have another reason for having a picture of Liara? Could Liara’s “father” not be Aethyta? Could there be any other possible explanations? Well I can answer all those in one word, yes. We have no solid evidence that Aethyta is Liara’s “father” so we can‘t include it because it isn’t obvious, it’s pure and utter speculation, and speculation isn’t allowed in articles.
 * The connection is just a bunch of circumstantial evidence that doesn’t go beyond reasonable doubt when there are so many other, equally reasonable explanations, that somehow keep getting dismissed. So again why does every other equally possible theory keep getting dismissed, oh that’s right, there can only be one possible explanation for this. We present this wiki as an encyclopedia, and as such no speculation, only facts, are allowed in articles. We leave the articles unbiased and present only facts to allow gamers and readers to draw their own conclusions, and you want us to go against our policy here about that. Because someone may have a different opinion about this than you, and putting that Aethyta is Liara’s “father” or even hinting at it, is putting bias in the article and preventing readers from drawing their own conclusions.
 * There was this “bickering” because the admins and other users are enforcing policy. Remember not everyone may share your view on this matter. We have policies here, and because we have only speculation, not hard facts, we can’t put anything in the articles because of our policies. So we won’t “include it and be done with it” because we have policies against doing just that. Also we aren’t going to list every possible connection because most, if not all, are based on speculation, not hard facts, which is what we need, especially for something like this. Also again why does every other possible, and reasonable connection, keep getting dismissed.
 * Also where are these individual wikis for Liara and Aethyta because I’d like to see them? Lancer1289 12:43, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, a pivotal part of any encyclopedia is relevance. Aethyta picture of Liara, the conversation of both characters from ME1 & ME2 respectively aren't conclusive evidence of a paternal connection even if one is strongly implied. So here's the point, dose that mean that these fact cant be added to there respective character wiki pages? We come to the point of relevance, because if it isn't you shouldn't add it. In Aethyta case, I believe  you can't add the video DLC: Lair of the shadow broker link as its just not relevant to Aethyta's story or background as a character. Unfortunately that includes the aforementioned video clip as again I believe it's not relevant. On that note I have a question weather on not it would be wrong to mention family background of even marital/relationship status(if this again is not already so)? I am aware that this can have no mention of Liara as no direction relation can be proved. In Liara's case if not already so if you could add a link to the DLC:L.O.S.B.? When I ask these questions I ask knowing that without good proof I can't mention the Photo with Liara, as again no "smoking Gun". I feel this leaves facts without any speculation but also keeps them relevant, and in this way not put theory or speculation into the readers head. Lastly,(Sparthawg948 & Lancer) your right the obvious answer is not always the right one but if the readers so desire information I don't think it should be hidden. In all of your post you have offered no way to post this info without compromising the integrity of site. I do understand the your argument for relevance and no speculation but there is relevancy for some of this info at least in the DLC content page.Tenabre --66.177.118.113 14:18, January 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yet again if you had bothered to read either article, then you would have noticed that both of those are already mentioned on their respective pages. It is mentioned that Aethyta’s relationship didn’t work out, and that Liara didn’t know her “father”, apart from it was another asari. It is right there in both articles, it isn’t hidden or anything. We aren’t keeping facts out of articles, like you claim we are. The text is there, plain as day. The same thing goes for other status like family and relationships, within the bounds of canon of course. We already have links, and information as appropriate in articles, which you would know if you had bothered to read either one, as it is clear you didn’t.
 * As to the links, that isn’t your call. It was a decision that was reached when the pack came out that if they had a dossier or video, then they get a link, regardless of it is relevant, which is your opinion not mine. Rather than repeating the information in the articles, it was decided to link them to prevent unnecessary duplication of information. They are there, and won’t be removed because you think they are irrelevant.
 * And I am really getting tired of this argument. Unless new information comes around, this will go nowhere quickly and will just end up being another long argument where absolutely nothing gets accomplished. Lancer1289 14:35, January 20, 2011 (

I apologize then. Let me say this, I know this site doesn't just belong to me it belongs to every fan of Mass Effect and I should certainly make myself more familiar it. and it my bad if came off self centered. But your right this argument will never die till ME3. Tenabre 15:15, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Quoting her mother
Just wanted to let you know, the quote wasn't "similar", it was exactly the same, wasn't it? 98.18.168.51 01:12, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I do believe it's similar, but that there are one or two words that are off. Pretty sure, anyways. SpartHawg948 02:50, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * What quote are we talking about anyway? The Yoshiman 97 02:57, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * The one where she's threatening the guy in her office on Illium and says something similar/identical to what Benezia said to Shepard on Noveria. The whole "have you ever seen an asari commando" bit. I'm pretty sure Benazia says an asari commando squad though, while Liara just says an asari commando. I could be wrong though. SpartHawg948 03:29, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, that. Well yeah, she definitely said that, really, exactly like her mom, and it's pretty obvious that it wasn't just mere coincidence by Bioware. It might be a lead of what Liara might soon become. Because really, they're basically in the same situation. Benezia tried to make Saren turn down a less destructive path, and tried to turn him. Eventually she died and it soon costed her life. Now here comes Liara, after her crazy adventure with Sovereign, who tries to destroy the Shadow Broker by acting as his 'informant'. I think it's really just a lead on Liara's part in Mass Effect 3, that she might become like her mother and might end up like her. I think the quote is really just a sign (crazy and somewhat stupid theory, I know). The Yoshiman 97 04:05, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know the quote isn't just coincidence, that it was intentional. I still think it's just similar, not exactly the same, but that's off recollection. I need to go back and verify one way or the other. I don't think Liara is going to become like her mother, I think she was just using an intimidating phrase she'd heard in the past (either from her mother or maybe from Shepard if she wasn't there on herself to hear it) to scare the crap out of some twerp. SpartHawg948 04:46, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, upon further review, I concede that I was mistaken. It was an exact quote. But as for it being a sign that she's going to end up like her mother, I think it's no more an indicator of that than saying that the hanar who plays Blasto's paraphrasing of Dirty Harry is an indicator he's going to become mayor of a town in California. It was just a snappy line that got the job done. SpartHawg948 04:53, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're probably right, but hey, it was all speculation. Just proves my excitement on what Bioware will do with Liara. I liked her better in the first game though.The Yoshiman 97 05:11, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * You and me both. Oh well. There's always #3! :) SpartHawg948 06:01, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

"Anger at Shadow Broker"
Is it mentioned anywhere about this broken dialogue option? When you talk with Liara on Illium (after doing her assignments) the abovementioned option appears. If you're like me, and run through the choices top-to-bottom, then this option disappears after the one above ("Liara's needs") is selected...and a small but VITAL piece of story info is gone for good. Bloody annoying, that. ComaDivine 02:22, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

"Possible Liara/Shadow Broker DLC?"
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this info. If not, then the mods can just delete it or something. I don't mind. :)

Credit for this find goes to user Troodon80 at CheatHappens.com. This is copied and pasted from his original post, so draw your own conclusions. I thought people might find it intriguing. ArchangelM127 05:15, April 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Someone also put the files together on youtube (for those who prefer to hear and not have their eyes bleed) ;D TheFedExPope 07:18, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

Now, some of you may have done the same research I have and come up short just like I did, but I kept going and found some interesting files in the Install Dir. I have extracted them and typed out the script for them; read below:

first is the name of the extracted file; I used afcextr.exe and ww2ogg, so you can actually go and look yourself if you don't believe me.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.001 - Male Shepard: I know you are looking for the shadow broker, cerberus gave me data on where to find him, inerested?

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.002 - Male Shepard: Liara - The Shadow Broker is dead that should be enough.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.003 - Liara: I don't even have access to all of it yet, I could use your help hacking some of the security points around Illium, that

might unlock new data.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.004 - Female Shepard: I know you are looking for the shadow broker, cerberus gave me data on where to find him, inerested?

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.005 - Female Shepard: Liara - The Shadow Broker is dead that should be enough.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.006 - Liara: I can't, shepard, you know that, I need to stay here and sort through the shadow broker's data, it's too improtant for me

to just leave.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.007 - Liara: No, Not while his trusted agents can still strike back, they were working with the collectors, shepard, they have to pay.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.008 - Liara: Taking down the Observer will tie-up most of the last loose ends the shadow broker left behind.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.009 - Liara: I found one interesting thing though, one of the shadow brokers top agents survived our attack, it's someone called the

observer.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.010 - Liara: You know where... yes! absolutly, I can leave now.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.011 - Liara: This should help me unlock some of the shadow brokers data, I'll let you know if I find anything useful.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.012 - Liara: Now, I sift through all the information I can get my hands on, and find out what the shadow broker knew about the

collectors... and how to kill them.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.013 - Liara: And if we hit the wrong target, hopefuly the real observer is too busy running to think about avenging the shadow broker.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.014 - Liara: I think she's the shadow broker agent we'll need to worry about.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.060 - Male Shepard: How's your new project comming along? anything I should be aware of?

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.061 - Female Shepard: How's your new project comming along? anything I should be aware of?

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.153 - Liara: I just hope I can use that knowledge well and that it can help you in the comming battles.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.154 - Liara: It's overwhelming, but i can see the attraction too, i've always treasured knowledge and the shadow broker had more

than anyone.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.153 - Liara: I can't believe how much information the shadow broker has, it's going to take years to go through it all.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.156 - Liara: They were quite literally after your body, that's all i've found so far, i'll keep looking.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.157 - Liara: Few humans have been through what you have, the collectors wanted to study you for genetic abnormalities.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.158 - Liara: Suprisingly, killing Saren didn't matter to them, they were intrigued by your exposure to the prothean beacon and your

exposure to the thorian on Feros.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.159 - Liara: I can shed some light on why the collectors wanted you however.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.160 - Liara: I don't have much new information, there's so much to go through, it could take years.

twrhub_main_contact_d_S_INT.160 - Liara: We can talk freely, i think, most shadow broker agents now report to me, knowingly, or unknowingly.

twrhub_liara_norm_intro_d_S_INT.002 - Liara: Hello again... Shadow Broker.

I have also found all of the audio files for Zaeed and Kasumi, yes; KASUMI, the as-of-yet-unreleased DLC char.

so from what you've read above, will this be a Liara/Shadow Broker DLC?

Now some people are saying that releasing a Liara/Shadow Broker DLC doesn't really fit BioWare's MO; because it's central to the plot, but is it?

because, I have found this file: twrhub_liara_dlc_lead_in_d_S_INT.afc

There's nothing in it... yet.

If other people would like to help me out and find any more information, I would be greatful...

so far I have gone through the first 12,000 audio files of about 49,000. I don't have good internet so any research anybody else can offer would be nice.

I remember reading somewhere a while ago that some DLC would be coming out based on the Redemption series of comics. Presumably based on what you've found it'll be about Liara and the Shadow Broker. By the way, some of that dialogue relates to the in-game portion of Liara's mission (the Observer and the hacking points on Illium). Bronzey 07:12, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I remember some of it from the existing game. I decided to just copy and paste the original post rather than get into the mess of picking and choosing. ^^ 70.58.23.76 21:44, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Most of the above mentioned files are not readily available in-game, the files that relate to the "Observer" is after you have aparently finished the "Shadow Broker" mission, refering to "The only loose end remaining" or "to busy running to avenge the shadow broker".

Also at the end of "Mass Effect: Redemption" #4 - it says "To be continued -- in Mass Effect 2".Troodon80 13:01, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Romance Section, Bad Info?
The person who added in the romance section, regarding Sheperd's first meeting with Liara (if Sheperd and Liara were romantically involved in ME1) in Mass Effect 2 on Illium, seems to be injecting the storyline from the Mass Effect comic book, into actual gameplay dialogue. In no way does Liara say to Sheperd that she feels guilty for giving her body to Cerberus for any purpose. In fact, nothing of the sort is even mentioned. I think the person who published that should either provide some evidence that this actual dialogue is there (I have played ME2 5 times through and not seen this dialogue), or remove this since it isn't in the game.
 * Really, because in the 3 walkthoughs I have romanced Liara, so far, she admits it. However you have to talk to her more becuase she doesn't admit it right away. Usually after you complete her two side missions if you press the issue then she will admit that she felt guilty. You just have to press the issue. Lancer1289 00:14, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah the infinate wonders of Youtube. Here is the video that proves Liara felt guilty. Lancer1289 00:19, May 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's spelled "infinite". Anyway, I stand corrected, but not to the initial information. If you read (and I went exactly by this), the info provided states Liara revealed this after kissing her on the initial meet, not after completing her side quest. So, someone needs to edit that.
 * I stand corrected on the article, the correct information is alreay detalied on the first line on the second paragraph of the ME2 romance section of the article. I got one piece of info wrong, in my comment, so what needs to be fixed. And I really don't care if I misspelled something. Lancer1289 01:00, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * But it isn't detailed at all, the article still alludes to this info being reveal after the kiss, this is misleading.. I now wonder if this is revealed whether or not Sheperd had a romance, since it seems by completing Liara's side quest, she may very well still reveal this info.
 * How is it misleading, Liara greets Shepard, if romanced in ME, with a kiss and then reveales the information. So I fail to see how this is misleading becuase it's the truth. Lancer1289 01:54, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I wanted to do a follow up here (leaving the rest behind). Romance in this particular situation, is not a needed criteria for the revelation regarding Shepard's body being given to Cerberus after Liara took him/her from the Shadow Broker. The video link you provided doesn't even show Shepard meeting Liara right off when they first see each other, so you cannot tell from that video if there was a romance or not. The video only plays from the point of the revelation of how Shepard's body was given to Cerberus, which is after Shepard completes the whole of the side quest for Liara, which is after their initial meet on Illium. I mentioned before, that I wondered if a romance was needed. The only way it is all revealed, is if Shepard completes Liara's side quest on Illium. So, as I mentioned before, aside from discovering no need for romance, one *has* to do the side quest to get this information. It is not simply revealed right after greeting Liara (as you indicate) for the first time on Illium, romancing or not.--Tommy6860 10:04, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * It comes across as if this info is revealed right after kissing her, not after having completed her side quest. Now do you understand?

Yup. We just had a discussion about that the other day. And, if you want to be technical (and I do so love being technical) perhaps you could explain to us what ME1 is? After all, there are three games. There is Mass Effect (abbreviated as ME), Mass Effect Galaxy (not really abbreviated since it's rarely referenced), and Mass Effect 2 (or ME2). I would assume that ME1 stands for Mass Effect 1, which does not exist. Not to be a jerk, but it's always a good idea to make sure your own ducks are in a row before getting nitpicky about things like the other persons spelling. Or, as the Book of Matthew puts it: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." :) SpartHawg948 01:25, May 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * It is widely used across the net when referring to the two MEs in discussions, that many use ME1 as the first game when also referencing ME2; I was only trying to shorten the words and I suspect most already know the acronyms. There's nothing technical about spelling words. If you're that daft that you need to have an explanation to what ME1 stands for (though interesting that you already acknowledged it), then that is on you.

Wow. I was being a little nitpicky, but there is no need to respond in that manner. I was merely pointing out that using ME1 is not techically correct, as it is an abbreviated form of a name that does not exist (as there is no 1 in Mass Effect). I am fully aware of what it means, but perhaps you should become aware of site policy regarding language and banning. Rude or insulting language (such as calling another user daft) is not tolerated, and can result in a ban. Disagree without being disagreeable. It's really not that hard. SpartHawg948 01:44, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know the policy, and you need to understand technicalities in the English language as referenced here. I did not make an attack on you. Using "daft" as a description for you wasn't an offense since you acknowledged one thing, while acting that you didn't know it.. I do not understand your comment on "language", did I use bad language, you didn't say? The ending of your previous comment was condescending and I didn't need a bible lesson. As far as calling ME1 what I did against your wishes, maybe you should start calling all of those (as an example) kings of England just Edward, though there have been eight of them. Do we simply refer to the first now as just Edward. Now, do you understand? If this all still seems as an offense to you, then report it.
 * If you know the policy then why aren't you following it. You used daft in an insulting manner towards someone else just becuase he made a joke. We use the offical titles here, i.e. Mass Effect (ME); Mass Effect Galaxy (MEG); and Mass Effect 2 (ME2); and if you don't like it or our polices then leave. Also apparently disagreeing without being disagreeable is apparenlty impossible Spart. Lancer1289 02:03, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)But I didn't act like I didn't know it. I made it clear that I knew it. I was posing a question I knew the answer to already, as I was attempting to point out that ME1 may be commonly used, but is incorrect. As for not understanding the comment about language, I was merely referring to the language policy, which spells out the policy on not using rude or insulting language. Let's see... what else? I wasn't trying to give a 'bible[sic] lesson', merely using a quote I felt appropriate. The argument that you were simply trying to shorten things by using ME1 seems a bit odd, as ME is actually shorter than ME1, and the Edward argument seems a bit disingenuous, as the I is added to differentiate from the six who came later, as opposed to an abbreviation where each word in the title is reduced to a letter. In this case it's quite easy to differentiate ME from ME2. Finally, who would I need to report you to? SpartHawg948 02:05, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe he was refereing to the Wikia Team Spart. Lancer1289 02:07, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

No, he probably meant the admins. I guess my ego is just so big that I automatically assume everyone know I am an admin, or that they look at my user page, which has a statement to that effect. I was asking the question in jest, but we see from this thread where such frivolous comments have gotten us. SpartHawg948 02:11, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed Spart, and to add to this one, how many others can we reference here. Or are there too many to count at this point? Lancer1289 02:14, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Has the administration here become less draconian since this whole thing? Holy crap! 24.49.9.115 11:53, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * You know there is no need for this kind of language or insults here. Lancer1289 17:12, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying that the admins here seem to be very uptight and inquisitive here. 24.49.9.115 23:59, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * And put your comments in a more appropriate place as this talk page isn't the proper place or forum for that. Lancer1289 00:02, February 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * This is exactly what I'm talking about; when it's something personal, it's serious business, but stuff like "punching Liara" (see below) it gets ignored.

Punch Liara
Anyone else hoping to be able to punch Liara later on?

I have never liked the character of Liara, so decking her wouldn't be a bad thing :P

No. Garrus, on the other hand, is fair game. :D

Why would you do such a thing? I would only ever punch Liara's clit.
 * People can we please keep comments appropriate? Is that so hard to ask? We really have no need for things like that. Lancer1289 22:32, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

Be aware for the bug!
I was on the moon with Tali and Liara when I first encountered this thing. Liara was hit by a Rocket drone thing, and she died, Beyond the textures of the wall. I thought it can be solved if i go out from the bunker. After I went outside: She disappeared from everywhere! No equiping, No team screen (where you manage the level up) nowhere. I gone back to the mentioned bunker but she was nowhere. Only re-loading an earlier save game helped. I didn't try to go back to the Normandy. I Don't know if it could happen with anyother character, but i think You could mention it somewhere.
 * I have seen this many times with all the squadmates so it does occur and is mentioned somewhere, just can't remember where off-hand. It most often happenes with Garrus with me, but again I have seen it with all six. Also I have had it happend twice and was left with no squadmates, very frusterating. Lancer1289 17:18, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Shadow Broker DLC choice
I hope there's an option to pick sides between the Shadow Broker and Liara in the upcoming DLC; personally I wanna use this on the latter. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if you get a call from the actual Shadow Broker after the mission, if it is an actual individual and not a group of individuals who claim that title whenever they make deals. Pyro721 00:03, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Trivia

I suposse this information can be posted as trivia, i came to realize that if you use certain conversation option in the mission on therum you can quote of Henry Morton Stanley when first meting with David Livingstone, but in this case it is: Dr. T´soni i presume instead of Doctor Livingstone i presume as is stated here http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Livingstone

Eyebrows
Is Liara the only Asari with eyebrows or did I miss someone? Though they look painted if you ask me... Anyway, shouldn't that go on the trivia section? Oh nevermind, Benezia also has "eyebrows"... Coincidence?. Squall117 20:27, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * More like familial relation, I'd say. And Batha also has them. And Nelyna and Rana Thanoptis don't quite have the same eyebrows, but they do have something going on in that region. SpartHawg948 21:18, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh I didn't know about Batha cause I've only played the PC games, and Nelyna/Rana have the more common "Asari tattoo" thing which could be more like real Asari eyebrows. But what I wanted to say was that I think it should be pointed out in their trivia section that they are the only three Asari known to have human-like eyebrows, I just thought I should ask before making an undesired edit. Squall117 21:38, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * If it was just Liara and Benezia, then maybe it'd be trivia. But you also have another completely unrelated asari who has them, so I really don't see this as being triva material. Especially since you yourself said that, far from being 'human-like eyenbrows', they look painted on. So no, I don't really see why it would need to be added to the trivia section. SpartHawg948 21:43, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * While there is a point to ignore it because of Batha. The interesting thing here (for me at least) is the interest of these three Asari to mimic a human trait, because as far as I know humans are the only species in ME which are known to have eyebrows or even hair (don't know about Quarians or Volus). By the way for me Trivia is "useless but nice" information. Like this. Squall117 22:23, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * But are they mimicking a human trait? I've seen no evidence of this. Perhaps if it was just two young asari in their Maiden stages, then maybe. But Benezia is an asari matriarch, and from what we know of them, they're hardly the type to jump on the bandwagon for brand new fads, which this would be, seeing as the asari have known about humans for only about 40 years or so. So I'd rather leave assumptions and other such speculative material out. As for what trivia is, for the site, "Trivia is classified as information players may not have been aware of and is impactful or interesting." This, to me, seems to be not at all impactful, and not interesting once speculation is removed. More trivial than trivia. SpartHawg948 22:30, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I admit it may not be interesting to everyone (specially as "interesting" is something kinda subjective) but the fact that they are mimicking human eyebrows is more than speculation, since such thing is only seen in humans. I mean, they both have perfect eyebrows unlike Rana or Nelyna who have "some tattoo over their eyes". Squall117 00:18, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, without any evidence other than your own opinion and observations, it is speculation to assume that they are attempting to mimick human eyebrows. If there is no solid evidence, it's speculation. And the only 'evidence' that they are mimicking humans is your statement that they are doing so, which doesn't cut it. SpartHawg948 00:26, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hehe good point... Still, I believe it worthy of being pointed out =P Squall117 01:17, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * And why would it be noteworthy? It clearly isn't unique to Benezia and Liara, as Spart demonistrated. If it was, then maybe it would be trivia, otherwise it really isn't noteworthy in my opinion. Lancer1289 01:33, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok have it our way.

Daughter of A Matriarch
Liara doesn't say that people have high expectations of her because her mother is Benezia, matriarch extraordinaire, but because she is a matriarch. Since every asari becomes a matriarch at a certain age (afaIk) that shouldn't really put the benchmark any higher for their daughters, right? So either this is a simple slip of the tongue (or a simplification) or, if you really really want it to, a break with canon. Just saying. 85.178.224.26 11:56, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Um no she doesn't say that. Liara says that a lot is expected of her because she is Benezia's, a matriarch, daughter, not that she is one. Asari don't become matriarchs until they are probably around 700-800 years of age, and in the final states of their lives. However since Benezia was a powerful voice among the asari, then much would be expected of Liara, just like much is expected of the children/relatives of modern politicians, royalty, etc. So it isn't breaking canon as it says exactly what is supported by in the facts and the Codex. Lancer1289 17:00, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Umm i think he was saying benezia was a matriarch not liara lancer.--Legionwrex 02:40, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Acutally from the way his sentence is structured, the she in "but because she is a matriarch", refers to Liara and not Benezia. Which is the whole canon thing he mentions. Lancer1289 02:51, September 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to admit, I figured the original must have meant to contrast "matriarch extraordinaire" with "[mere] matriarch", since it's obvious that Liara isn't a matriarch; but yes, the use of "she" is ambiguous.  And the reference to canon is confusing, too. Either way, Lancer's explanation is fair enough, i.e., Benezia is a famous matriarch, and so all eyes would be on Liara.  And yet: Liara might mean that she is not only the daughter of a matriarch, but that she was born to a matriarch, i.e., Aethyta is her mother--NO! wait, nonsense, I mean--Benezia was already a matriarch when she bore Liara.  Matriarchs having newborns might be fairly rare (anyway, Samara has been chasing Morinth for 400 years or so, which means she was not a matriarch when she had her children; and she as well as some other asari speak as though one tries to "settle down" and have a family in their middle stage. Whereas Shiala said, I think, that she's been following Matriarch Benezia for over 200 years = much longer than Liara has been alive).  Sooooo, Liara's mom was not only well respected, but was a matriarch even at Liara's birth, i.e., Liara was raised by a woman who had already reached the age of "wisdom" (or what have you).  AnotherRho 04:02, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

New Relationship
Someone added a line that says you can start a romance with her in LotSB. Is this true? Or is this a case of someone interpreting 'signals' in a way that could get them in a lot of trouble in the future?JakePT 11:40, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually it isn't true. You can continue the relationship if you had one from ME, but you can't start a new one with Liara. I'll be removing that. Believe me I tried to get this last night, and nothing worked. Lancer1289 14:35, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Liara ME2 DLC questions
Been trying to get answers to these questions everywhere with no luck. If anyone has already played through and is willing to answer its appreciated.

1. If I have a relationship with someone else in ME2, thats gone all the way is there a convo path that allows me to continue with Liara? If so, does this involve leaving the new person?

2. If I do the DLC early, and continue with Liara right away, does this mean i cannot pursue anyone on the normandy in this game?

3. When they say continue what does that even mean. Is it just a one time scene post the DLC ending, or must i continue to visit liara and get new convo's each time like all the other options?

I know that even after dumping your new ME2 LI to get back with Liara, she knows that you've dated an ME2 LI. In my playthrough, I dumped Miranda just to see if Liara knows, and she does. I was still able to get back with Liara at the end though. Freakium 00:27, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Do you have to dump new LI to get back with her?

Short answer, yes. If you haven't, then Liara wishes both of you will be happy together. Freakium 00:07, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Paramour Achievement
I was wondering, will i get Paramour Achievement if i'm loyal to Liara in Mass Effect 2 (i mean Romance)?


 * No. I had not yet gotten the Paramour achievement in ME2, but I did continue the romance with Liara in LotSB, and the achievement did not unlock. You do, however, still get the 'Catching Up' achievement. Rikoshi 05:12, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Liara's Character
Ok is it just me, or does anyone else feel Bioware has violated Liara's character completely, I mean comon she spends two years trying to kill him and suddenly wants to BE him...I dont believe it. If I was Shepard I would have made her choose, her position as the SB or me, after the way she strung Shepard along in ME 2 including abandoning her when she was most needed the least she owes Shep is a definite decision. Plus she would be rather un useful in the fight against the Reapers as the Broker, Shepard needs fighters, and love, not spies, I hope Liara will realize that before Shepard grows tired of dealing with her BS

Bioware if your listening (I know you are), please make her a perm squadmate in ME3, please revive the best of the romances in ME, please let them have a happy ending after all thats been done to Liara
 * No, I don't think it violated her character at all. I mean, she did kill the guy she set out to kill. She got her payback. And becoming the new Shadow Broker seems perfectly in-character for her. She wants to know. She yearns for knowledge, it's her passion. This was made abundantly clear in the first game. Even though she was barely past childhood by the standards of her people, she was already an accomplished archaeologist who was surprisingly on-the-money with her theories. Becoming the new Shadow Broker seems like merely a continuation of her quest to learn as much as she can. And just because she assumed the mantle of Shadow Broker doesn't mean she's going to become like the previous Shadow Broker. She even says that she has a mission (helping defeat the Reapers) which will help keep her honest. Shepard most certainly does need good, detailed information to fight the Reapers. The worst thing you can do is stumble into a fight blindly, without any intel about what you're facing. It's common sense. Wars are won and lost on the basis of intel. In fact, that's pretty much the motto of the salarian military right there. So no, this does not in any way seem to violate her character.


 * And BioWare, if you're listening, awesome job! Liara as the Shadow Broker is a great plot twist! And while I'm all for happy endings, sometimes dramatic or bittersweet or sad endings just work better from a plot standpoint. If it comes down to a sad ending or a deus ex machina artificially contrived happy ending (example - Surprise! Thane's supposedly terminal illness that was the main pivot for his entire development as a character in ME2 is suddenly cured! Yay! Rainbows and saccharine happy endings!), I'll take the sad but fulfilling ending every time. SpartHawg948 23:13, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Violated? Hell no. If anything, it made me consider editing a ME savegame and give ME2 another run so that I can start a romance with her :P. Seriously, every squadmate in ME got so much better in ME2 (well, except Ashley I guess). If I would a give a Most Improved Player award, Garrus just got some stiff competition. It seemed to me like Liara was a "teenage" bookworm with the desire to better understand the galaxy. The Shadow Broker's network is the perfect means to achieve that. And with a bit of badassness to go along.. I am nothing but impressed. Prismvg 23:28, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

No, they did not do an "awesome" job with Liara. Sparthawg, your free to your opinion whatever it may be, I agree that sad endings can be good sometimes but this just isnt one of them, and I am afraid I must disagree on many things here my friend. Liara DID get violated, she has become someone else entirely, she is but a mere shadow of herself, I hope Liara will come to her senses and disolve the Shadow Brokers network as thats just not where she belongs, and because of that I am certain she will come full circle eventually, I know she'll choose Shepard over the Broker position if pushed to choose one.

In my opinion Shepard and Liara will get back together after Liara dissolves the group, sometimes a happy ending is a good one after all. You are free to disagree which I know most will, but thats just my opinion after all, take it how you will


 * Wow. So, I'm free to have my opinion, just as long as that opinion isn't that BioWare did an awesome job. I can understand if you had said "I have to disagree with you on BioWare doing an awesome job", but instead you just called my opinion wrong and then informed me I'm free to have my own opinion. Ummm... thanks? SpartHawg948 02:34, September 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact that Liara character has changed over the course of the games, just makes the Mass Effect story better. Character development is essential to any story and shaping a character to fit the story you want to tell, just ruins the story and the characters in it. I personally thought that this story development was superb and it actually gives me hope for the next Mass Effect story. If only all the stories in Mass effect were as good as this one... --silverstrike 03:30, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. A character needs to develop. They can't just stay the same. There have to be challenges, and trials, and ideally things that they do that you really aren't too sure about. If everything is all nice and cozy and fits with preconceived notions of ideas, it's boring. SpartHawg948 03:33, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

No sparthawg that was not my intention, I apologise if I came across the wrong way, what I was trying to say was that while you have your own opinion and I respect that I merely disagree with it, again I apologise if I was misunderstood, I do have a tendency to use the wrong words on occasion. But on another matter I do console my irritated thoughts over the course of her "development" with hopes that they will pair up again someday

again, apologies
 * Yeah, it was the "No, they did not do an "awesome" job with Liara" part that got my proverbial goat. Because obviously, I was expressing my opinion that BioWare did an awesome job with Liara and the DLC in general (and I am of this opinion, feeling that Liara becoming the new Broker is a natural evolution of the character we know and love, and taking into account that BioWare did say that the second installment [i.e. ME2] was going to be much darker than the first game), but then you responded that no, they didn't do an "awesome" job, and I think it was the quotes, which to me implied that you were calling my opinion wrong. It was just a misunderstanding, water under the bridge. But yeah, they did say that ME2 would be much darker, and Liara wasn't exempt from this, especially in light of all she went through not just when Shepard died, but soon thereafter with Feron. SpartHawg948 05:29, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Well now, you are suprisingly understanding, thats an uncommon trait in people these days most people would be ignorant morons and keep taking offense, but not you, you were kind enough to accept my error and wave it away, and I again thank you for understanding.

I guess I'm mainly irritated because I didnt expect them to go this far with it, I guess I just expected Shep and Liara to always be there for each other, like in one fic I read if I recall the author described Liara as the "calm eye to the storm that was Shepard" or something like that. Plus I dont understand her reasoning, unless I'm mistaken it was hinted in 2 that they couldnt be together because of the broker but now that he's gone she still persists in independance...forgive me for dragging it out but you can see how I came to the conclusions I did, yes?
 * I do see how you came to those conclusions, yes. But the thing is, Shep and Liara were always there for each other... right up until Shepard died and Liara had to spend the next two years adjusting to Shepard being dead. She had to go on without him, and to learn to rely on herself. This becomes clear when talking to her after fighting Tela Vasir when she bitterly comments (provided you use the paragon redirect) that, just like the first time they met, Shepard swoops in to pull Liara out of a mess. She's become used to doing things on her own because Shepard was dead, and then, all of a sudden Shepard isn't dead anymore. You can't reasonably expect things to instantly go back to how they were. It's going to take time, and even then, things might never be the same as before. She's been through a lot, and it really shows. SpartHawg948 05:42, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, these things take time, they always have I'm afraid. I just want to see the two of them together after the fact you know?, as much as they have been through, together and seperate I feel like they deserve one another and I'm hoping thats how it happens, what with all she went through to get him/her back


 * There's so much I disagree with you on this. Would it be nice to see them together? Sure it would, does that make a good story? Not necessarily. Bad fanfiction? Almost certainly. I also fail to see how Liara became a 'shadow' of herself. I might have agreed with you pre-Lair but apart from being maybe a little more determined and self-assured, she's the same character. Frankly it seems like your idea of the character is to be Shepard's partner, as opposed to, you know, an actual well rounded character with motives and desires other than banging the hero. JakePT 06:58, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Not at all, I want her to be her own character, and independant but I also like the idea of them together I dont deny that, everyone has a favorite pairing and this just happens to be mine, she isnt the same character she was in ME1, none of them are, and I realise she is well rounded and her own person, I just wish she hadnt changed so much. Like I said to SpartHawg, your entitled to your own opinion whether or not anyone agrees, and I look forward to the viewpoints of you and others here, gives me someone to examine ideas with

A question
I've been trying to figure this out over the past few days, but I can't seem to get satisfactory info. Is Liara made an available ME2 squadmate after the LotSB DLC or not? An answer would be greatly appreciated. Arbington 02:36, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. She is only a squad member for one mission and one mission only, the LOTSB mission. SpartHawg948 02:37, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah. Very well then. Thanks for the answer. Arbington 02:38, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

New Changes
New additions to the romance section need to be reworked. They refer to statements made by Shepard and Liara as canon when the statement is merely one of several optional lines (ie final line says Shepard says "Shepard teases that she's asking for a big promise, and tells her that she should make an offer. Liara responds that she's open to suggestion, then gasps" This is one of two responses and thus should not be treated as canon.) Im not sure how to fix it myself to ensure the section does not contradict anything else people got, but i will look into it.--Ironreaper 05:11, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Liara's "father"
Would it be illogical to assume that Matriarch Aetheyta is Liara's 'father'? The Matriarch claims to have had a pureblood daughter that she supposedly lost contact with, and in Lair of the Shadow Broker a video of her looking at a photo of Liara can be found. Is this proof enough for a spot in the article?


 * Nope, the evidence is inconclusive (at least you bothered to ask first unlike oh so many others). While all the dots appear to connect, we need something direct. The threshold for inclusion would basically be a character or document (which we have a reasonable expectation is trustworthy) explicitly stating that Liara is Aethyta's daughter. -- Commdor (Talk) 09:53, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Inconclusive indeed and it's nice that it was asked before it was done. Unfortunately we don't have solid enough evidence, see the Talk:Matriarch Aethyta page for more, but there are also many other possible explanations for why Aethyta has a picture of Liara. Basically we need something much more solid that we do now, which is vague and can lead to multiple explanations. Commdor provides a great example of what we need, and what we still lack. We need solid proof and currently it falls under speculation. Lancer1289 12:28, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

While in my opinion this most definatly proves Aethyta has a connection to Liara in some way or another, and that it at least deserves a mention on the page, we should probably wait for Bioware to outright state it. I still think the page should at least mention the picture, if not the connection that it implies, just that we wait til Liara/Aethya says "That bartender/Liara is my father/pureblood daughter.", but thats just my opinion.
 * And the page does contain a link to the page mentioning the picture. Just like Miranda's page contains a link to the page mentioning her sterility, Mordin's contains a link to the one describing his injury, Anderson's contains a link to the one mentioning his possible involvement with Cerberus, and so on. SpartHawg948 19:02, February 13, 2011 (UTC)

Death, Most Likely
If the player chooses the "happily ever after" option, Shepard jokes about eventually settling down and having "little blue children".

If the player chooses the "death, most likely" option, what does Shepard say and how does Liara respond? Anyone got a youtube video link of this?


 * Please try to sign your posts with four tildes (~). I haven't been able to find any footage of this (every single one of the You Tube videos pick the little blue children line), but I did find this on a forum: "Instead of 'Happily ever after' I picked 'Death, most likely'. Then she gets all hopeless and I told her 'We are here now', which activated the romance scene." Bronzey 11:06, September 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n6OKfN3Qn0#t=8m28s Graptor 13:03, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ahhh. Really interesting - thanks for the link. That answers the original question very well. Bronzey 13:07, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Third joining with Liara
in ME1 I know that once when you talk to Liara on the ship she will ask you about having nightmares caused by the beacon and then join with Shepard in an attempt to alleviate them, but I've only been able to get this dialogue option once and I can't seem to get it again. What do you need to do to have this conversation?

Hoplite
http://meforums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=635140&forum=125 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKJkZq4zqb8&feature=related Go check it yourself Lancer. I wouldn't add it without proof. The first link shows the armors including the Hoplite. The second shows Liara wearing the armor in the opening cutscenes of Mass Effect 2.--AdmiralPedro1stFleet 21:54, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * And I state again this is trivia how exactly? Answer that question first. Your words stated "nearly identical" and given the vast amount of armor changes between ME and ME2, visuals are not enough in this case. There are no devs on that post so "nearly identical" = speculation.
 * Also along that lines, what is this game called Mass Effect 1? Was there a game released that we missed? Becuase if we did I'd like to konw about it. Lancer1289 22:01, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

All right all right I get it. The similarity is there but if you don't want it in the trivia that's fine.--AdmiralPedro1stFleet 17:08, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

Profile Picture
Liara's appearance as of Lair of the Shadow Broker has changed. I think it would be prudent for the profile picture to reflect her current appearance. HelterSkelter 02:28, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming you mean the one at the top of the article. If that is the case then the answer is no. The reason being it is a massive spolier for ME2, and the same applies to Garrus' and Tali's articles as well. We have reverted edits to their character templates on many occasions. Those pictures won't change either for the same reasons. If you ment something else, then please say so. Lancer1289 02:34, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * That is what I meant. But...a spoiler? How explain what it would spoil? Absolutely nothing, besides her character model being updated.HelterSkelter 03:56, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes because her appearance, as you noted, has changed. Here's another question, should we replace Garrus' uppermost picture? Of course not because of the cybernetics from ME2. Or Tali's? Also no because her suit physically changes. Both of those are also spoilers for ME2, just like it would be for Liara. Here's another reason, because any good physical capture of her face would not be consistent with ME backgrounds, also hinting at another spoiler. And another, probably the most basic reason, because it is above the ME2 spoiler tag. No information, pictures, or anything else from Mass Effect 2 can be above that tag. That is the reason why Garrus' and Tali's pictures haven't changed, because they are from ME, and putting an ME2 picture there is one massive spoiler. Lancer1289 04:08, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * You are not providing any reason why it's a spoiler. Her character model has been updated. Her being in ME2 is not, in any way, shape, or form a spoiler. Garrus' face has changed because of events in the game. Tali looks essentially the same, and updating her character picture is unnecessary. Liara's model was simply updated--it is now, canonically, how she always appeared. The player is supposed to disregard any other appearance she had. It is similar to how Isabela from Dragon Age II has changed appearances. The picture we currently have is inaccurate with the lore. HelterSkelter 04:13, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I just gave you a very valid reason why it is a spoiler. The fact she is even in ME2 and with a picture is already one. Taking standards from one Wiki and applying them to another rarely works and is frustrating when it comes up. Standards and guidelines rarely transfer from one Wiki to another. You would say that we have to update this one while ignoring two other ones, that doesn't make any sense. The Manual of Style on perspective basically states that the opening paragraph to an article should contain basic knowledge information with no spoilers. Putting a picture of ME2 is a spoiler for players who haven't played it yet. We don't update Kaidan, Ashley's, Anderson, or Udina as I'm certain they all appear in ME2 at some point. Also what about Bailey, doesn’t he appear in a comic set after ME2. So by your logic we should have a comic image there instead of the one from the game. That doesn't make sense as it is a spoiler for Inquisition.
 * Canonically or inaccuracy doesn’t have one thing to do with it. Does she appear in ME or should we ignore all of that? See the MoS again on Perspective. The image at the top of the article is reflective of their first appearance in whichever game or comic, where we can get pictures, they appear in. Containing no spoilers and pictures from an updated appearance are to be put under the appropriate spoiler tag. An updated image should go where it belongs, under the appropriate spoiler tag and this is done because of the perspective issue. Putting an updated picture is a spoiler no matter how you cut it. Lancer1289 04:25, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * If Liara having an updated character model is a spoiler, I should insist that the "Contents" not mention ME2. It should certainly not say "Romance" "Weapon Proficiencies", or anything like that. Those are at the top of the page, and, by default, always open. Not to mention that the ME2 team openly markets Liara being in ME2. Her presence is not a spoiler. This type of stringent spoiler precautions mean many things--for instance, nothing unmarked as a spoiler should ever mention the Suicide Mission. Liara has a new face. By the Mass Effect teams' standards it is how she always appeared. The article should reflect that. HelterSkelter 04:54, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for applying more standards from other places that don't exist here. We have our own standards and our standards are that the opening picture reflect their appearance as they first appear. Liara, Ashley, Kaidan, Anderson, Udina, Garrus, Tali, Wrex, and a few others have pictures that reflect their first appearance, and we aren't going to change them or this one. The table of contents is something that cannot be helped and we have no choice but to deal with it so that point is entirely mute because it is a function of the wiki. We can take it out, but that hampers navigation, so it is again something we have to put up with. Also note that by default the ToC is closed, but open for registered users. It is not how she always appeared, she appeared differently in ME than ME2, and the article should reflect that. You keep applying standards from other places that don't apply here. I don't see you arguing for any other article, and I would say no on that too by the standards that have been established here. Lancer1289 05:08, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

I am not applying standards from other places--I am saying that you're simply being stubborn and hardheaded if you think that changing a character model constitutes a spoiler. Guess what? The top of the page has several spoilers. One does not need to even scroll down to see that Liara is in ME2. So changing her profile picture is not a spoiler. Liara looks different now. As if that's how she's always looked. Ashley, Kaidan, Udina, Tali, and Wrex simply are progressing through time, and don't look that much different. Garrus' face get blown up is a spoiler, and keeping his old picture makes sense--and even if we use a pre-blast picture, what's the point? He looks no different. But here's what you're not getting, or at least refusing to understand: Liara has a different appearance now because that's how she always looked. Her face has not changed over time. Her model has been updated. If they rereleased ME1, that's how she would look. HelterSkelter 16:41, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes you are, quote "By the Mass Effect teams' standards", which isn't our standards. You are arguing against policy about changing pictures to reflect their first appearance. I already gave you reasons about the ToC so again that point is mute so please stop pointing to it for the reasons I have already given. Liara's appearance does change from ME to ME2 and putting a picture from ME2 there is a spoiler and we aren't going to change it per our policy. Nor will we change any other ones. It is odd that you argue for this one alone while ignoring other ones which are of a similar case. The bottom line is we aren't changing the picture for reasons I will not repeat. Lancer1289 17:38, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see--I assume you meant another wiki. Yes, I was comparing this to what BioWare intended because this is a wiki to reflect BioWare's game, is it not? What ones am I not arguing against? I've explained--multiple times--why Liara is a separate, unique case. Wrex didn't suddenly turn blue. Liara's appearance has altered. I cannot see how this is a spoiler; I have not seen how you've said it is a spoiler, but how the Contents page isn't. HelterSkelter 17:48, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok where's your source that this is what BioWare intended? Maybe the fact she looks different is because two years have passed and some things changed? So they changed her appearance to reflect two years of difference between ME and ME2, and perhaps what she went through in those two years? I will not repeat my reasons for the ToC as you can read them above as they are sitting there plain as day. I have also given reasons why it is a spoiler which can also read above because they are also sitting there. You have not explained why Liara is a unique case as it is no different from Ashley or Kaidan, who also could appear and their appearance hasn’t changed much either. Policy is policy which you can also read above and that will not change. Lancer1289 17:54, February 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * "Maybe the fact she looks different is because two years have passed and some things changed? So they changed her appearance to reflect two years of difference between ME and ME2, and perhaps what she went through in those two years?" That can't possibly be it, since the model touch up is done for the Shadow Broker DLC, and not between ME1 and ME2.  You may disagree, but it seems clear to me they used the same or a very similar model from ME1 because she's a minor character in ME2 without much screen time.  They touched her model up for the DLC because it very badly needed it.  In that sense, using the updated image is in not a plot spoiler, but rather just a better, clearer image.  If one agrees with this line of logic, using an updated picture in no way contradicts the perspective section from the manual of style page.  After all the perspective section makes no mention of images, instead puts a general rule about avoiding plot spoilers to someone that had never played Mass Effect.  If someone had not played Mass Effect at all, then a DLC-image of Liara would be no more of a spoiler than a ME1 image of Liara.  Lastly, you mention singling out Liara for this update treatment.  The answer is simple, no other character has gotten a significant appearance update.  Its possible I missed something in Anderson, Joker, Chakwas, or Udina, but Liara's model seems to be the only one to get a significant update.  If another returning character had gotten a new higher detail (non-spoiler) face update, then would dare to speak for Helter Skelter in saying we both would support an updated image for that character as well.  Slothen 10:31, February 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * So we again argue against policy about an ME image at the top for a reason. The pictures at the top of articles are to reflect their first appearance, which for Liara was ME, not ME2 which is why there is a picture there from ME. An image from ME2 belongs in the ME2 section, not at the top as it is a spoiler for the reasons I listed above and will not repeat again. So what if someone hasn't played ME, it doesn't matter as ME was the first game in the series and because Liara is a major character in it, a picture from ME is not only called for, but more appropriate. Updating the picture goes against policy about spoilers, this does include perspective as she appears differently in ME and ME2 so yes that is a spoiler, and would also be inconsistent with other character pages with images at the top. Lancer1289 14:46, February 7, 2011 (UTC)

Liara in ME2 PS3 new game
I've recently puchased a PS3 copy of Mass Effect 2, and was surprised to see Liara as the "previous romantic interest" who appears in the Normandy crash at the start (this was on a brand-new FemShep). When I played on the Xbox previously, a new FemShep had Kaiden assigned as the default romantic interest.

Anyone else experienced this, or have an explanation? Nighteyes428 19:36, February 19, 2011 (UTC)

Liara appears if and only if you had a romance with her, regardless of gender. Otherwise, it's the surviving human squad member, regardless of if you had a romance or not. Furthermore, the surviving squad member, by default, is the opposite gender of Shepard. Since you started with a default FemShep, Kaiden was shown on the Normandy, however, I'm pretty sure it was not as a romance. Tanooki1432 19:38, February 19, 2011 (UTC)

After restarting the game (having now downloaded the Cerberus Pack), I think that Liara might be shown on default as you choose who survived Virmire in the Genesis comic AFTER the opening scene. Nighteyes428 13:32, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

ME3 Liara Skills revealed in E3 demo
In the E3 live broadcast, Liara's skills in ME3 have been revealed as being:


 * Singularity
 * Stasis
 * Throw
 * Lift
 * Biotic Traning

Source: http://live-event.ea.com/e3/chat/mass-effect at 10:06

--87.56.170.17 12:41, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Again that was confirmed by Hudson to be a simplified version of the final game and again consider that we are over 9 months from release, so a lot can change in that time period. Lancer1289 14:33, June 9, 2011 (UTC)

A little bit of confusion
This sentence is in the Mass Effect 2, Romance section: During the Shadow Broker mission, Shepard has an opportunity to try and confront Liara about their relationship before boarding the Shadow Broker's ship, telling Liara that they resent how Liara has used them to help find the Shadow Broker.

What is trying to be said here? The Yoshiman 04:44, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

According to Portal 2 developers "they" is an acceptable gender neutral term. But if we have such great reservations about it, then here is a possible replacement: During the Shadow Broker mission, Shepard has an opportunity to try and confront Liara about their relationship before boarding the Shadow Broker's ship, expressing resentment at Liara's past treatment of the Commander. --Ironreaper 05:12, June 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * The revised sentence "...expressing resentment at Liara's past treatment" is not as specific as compared to "...how Liara has used them to help find the Shadow Broker". Not terribly hard to fix though. Just a minor wording to "...expressing resentment of Liara using the Commander to help find the Shadow Broker." should suffice. — Teugene (Talk) 06:37, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

Does a relationship with Garrus jeopardise any future relations with Liara in ME3?
Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask this, but if i go ahead with relationship with Garrus, will I not be able to a romance with Liara in ME3? (for 'cheating' on her)


 * It is not known at this time whether or not that may be the case. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 15:26, June 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Your fine with the question, but we do know from BioWare that cheating on your Love Interest from Mass Effect with someone from Mass Effect 2, will have consequences in ME3. Lancer1289 16:37, June 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * But to which extent, is still unknown. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 17:00, June 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes but your answer made it seem like we knew nothing, when we do know something. Lancer1289 17:47, June 24, 2011 (UTC)

Overload ability
I gave Liara maxed out Electronics skills, including the Overload skill, of course. My problem is that this skill is nowhere to be found in the squad menu and therefore not usable in combat. Has anyone else this problem, or does someone know how to fix this? Reloads of any kind didn't work.
 * To quote from the article: "There is a bug affecting Liara's character on all platforms (PC, Xbox 360) that remains unpatched as of PC version 1.02. If you unlock all of Liara's biotic talents, it will cause the tech ability Overload to be unavailable for the player to use in the HUD screen/Power Wheel. The only way Liara can then use Overload is if the Squad Power Usage option is set to Active." It says this just below her list of powers. Tali&#39;s no.1 fan 14:27, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Damn... I've read this page at least half a dozen times, but this part seems to have always escaped my view. Thanks for the answer.

Shadow broker DLC romance
Reminds me heavily of Dragon age: origins's witch hunt DLC good ending. Only this time, the ending doesnt stink so badly. Guess Bioware learned from its mistakes.
 * Comments like this belong in blogs or in the forums, as this isn't remotely what talk pages are for. Lancer1289 16:03, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

Role in ME3.
I earlier put it about meeting Liara on Mars, but it got taken down. Can i have a clarification please? Gorvar 16:13, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because most of the information that will be added to those sections will come from the game once it is released. If we get a massive amount of story with a source, then that will probably get added, but to have just one extra sentence, it really doesn’t work as well as people think. Lancer1289 16:17, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Okay thank you. Sorry for the little mess-up there ^^ Gorvar 16:32, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * If we had more information about what Liara was doing apart from "the Alliance hired her to study Prothean artifacts", then I'd be all for it, but sadly that's all we have, or at least all I've see. And stretching that out to more than one sentence would just look sloppy. Lancer1289 16:36, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Liara and armor
In Mass Effect 1, where she's a squad member, Liara can wear armor for humans, right? There isn't "asari" armor? I'm pretty sure of this, but I just wanted to make sure.

Giftedgoodnatured 01:46, February 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's correct. -- Commdor (Talk) 01:48, February 21, 2012 (UTC)