Mass Relay Connections Clarity[]
I recently edited the Mass Relay Connections section of the cluster pages in a couple of ways, which was my mistake. I am new to wiki editing and am just trying to help improve the wiki as a database for everyone. As it stands I think that specific section is extremely misleading to readers.
The first issue I see is the implication that the in-game relay connections mean more than they actually do. They are not a direct connection between two relays, but that is what many readers may think when looking at the wiki. According to the lore the Local Cluster is only connected to the Arcturus Stream, from which there are multiple relays connecting elsewhere. In ME1 however the Arcturus Stream doesn't exist, so the Local Cluster is instead depicted linking directly to the Exodus Cluster. Then in ME2 they removed the Exodus Cluster so the Local Cluster connects directly to the Serpent Nebula instead. (The same thing happens in reverse with the Annos Basin dividing the connection between the Horse Head Nebula and the Serpent Nebula in ME3.) The games are only showing connections that exist between in-game clusters, and are therefore not always a direct connection. I believe this needs to be made clear in some manner or else the wiki risks spreading misinformation.
The second issue I see is with not including subscripts indicating what games each of the connections appear in. The current system requires unnecessary cross-referencing, when instead it could simply be indicated for every entry allowing for quick and easy understanding. For example, look at the page for the Argos Rho. The connection to the Horsehead Nebula exists in both ME1 and ME3, while the connection to the Shadow Sea is only in ME3. The second fact is clear from the subscript, but to actually figure out the first from the wiki you would need to check the top of the page to see what games the Argos Rho appears in. From there you would have to keep in mind that you didn't see ME2 and then assume that no subscript means every game it appears in, leaving ME1 and ME3. It is also worth noting that ME3's galaxy map depicts a few connections from ME2 through clusters they did not carry over into ME3, namely the Omega Nebula and Hawking Eta. This means that some of the connections listed on the Omega Nebula page actually appear in ME3 and should have a subscript indicating such, despite the cluster not being present in the game itself. (The depicted route to the Ninmah Cluster is the clearest example of this.)
Lastly, I went through the games and recorded all the connections to fill in the ones missing or incomplete on the wiki. If there are no complaints I can add those back in when I get time irrespective of the above changes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ecolection (talk · contr).
no you will not do any further changes without talking it out in the proper channels first and holding a vote, which is here or in a project page. this is classified as a major change.
there are multiple issues to your revisions. firstly, making a blanket change without prior warning or precedence. that is a big no around here, though we are already talking it out so this is moot. secondly, the clusters only appear in one or two games. a cluster qualifies for the mass relay connections section if it is accessible in the same game as the article cluster. that rules out the shortcuts in ME3. omega nebula is only accessible in ME2 so all connections there are in ME2. no superscript means you can see the connection between the two no matter what game you're in as long as they're there. it's as easy as that, no need to overcomplicate it.
third, all lore notes can be explained away in the trivia section since most cluster articles are sparse enough as is. mass relay connections are there for gameplay purposes (and joyriding across the wiki). an explainer on every page is not the way to do it as it distracts from its purpose - targeted revisions on clusters of issue (like the local cluster as you said) is the way to do it, not a blanket statement on every section where it may not be relevant at all. T̴̴͕̲̞̳̖̼̱͒͛̎͒ͫ̃ͧeͩ̈̽̈҉͓̝̰̼̦̫̤̀͠m̫̪̪̯̻͎̫̅̇̓̇͌̚p̸̙̝̓̓͌ͨ͆ͣͥ̂̕o͒̽͐̽͏̞̬̻͕͔͕͚̰͍͠͞ṙ̢̞͚͈̹̰ͨ̓ͭ̈́̌ạ̢̧̪̹̺̺̣̹̲͂͆̏ͪͨ͒ͭř̹͈͜͠y̷͍̻̜̹̼̾̽̈́e̵̹̼̟̦͚͐̈́͌͘d͉̲̣̻͉̱͗̅ḭ̷̻̆͋̆̓̔͝t̨͍̦̫̗͂̅̍̋̆ͩ͝ộ̫̟̬̳̝̲̾ͫ̒̿ͮ̑̚rͯ̎ͨͭ̄̿̽͛҉̠̫̱̠̘̘̲́ͅ7̩̻ͤͩͨ͝͡8̜̣̙͇̻ͨ͛͛̆͒̆̽̒͐͜͡ ͥ̍̉̃̇ͥ̓ͨ͏̕҉̥̹͓̗̤̠̖̤ (talk) 20:38, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
As I said I’m new to wiki editing entirely and was just looking to help out, so I’m glad for the opportunity to better understand how to go about things. I appreciate your patience with me.
As to the topic of relay connections I think I now understand that we are approaching it with very different ideas of what the section is used for. I think it has a purpose for delivering information about the lore (and I think many readers will assume that to be its purpose). As I understand it, you are viewing it to be a section that simply describes the in-game phenomena. If nothing else comes from this discussion, at the very least I would say that the pages do not make that clear. (Perhaps renaming the section to something that would emphasize the gameplay focus, such as Galaxy Map Connections, would help with this?)
I still don’t understand not including the Omega Nebula’s connections in ME3 though. After all, they visually appear on the galaxy map of that game, just as they would if you could visit the system. And it isn’t very helpful for joyriding across the wiki when the Ninmah Cluster simply says, none. In such cases wouldn’t it be better to include the connections but make a trivia note on how the connection exists on the galaxy map even though the cluster cannot be visited in that game?
The reason I think a disclaimer would be relevant to every page once again stems from me looking at it from the lore perspective, which tells us we can’t trust any of those connections to represent a direct one because we know not all of them do.
Isn’t the inclusion of lore how you keep such pages from being sparse? And I think that there is value in having a lore-based section devoted to the topic of relay connections, it is what drew me to the section in the first place after all.
On the other hand, I must admit I don’t know what gameplay purpose the section could have? In-game the Relay Connections are simply a visual in the galaxy map, they don’t serve any purpose at all. The player can travel to any cluster from any cluster, even passing through clusters they don’t have access to. Because of this I would have said the in-game relay connections are only there for the sake of the lore in the first place. [[User:Ecolection|Ecolection]] ([[User talk:Ecolection|talk]]) (talk) 02:40, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- i was the one who proposed the addition of the mass relay connections in the first place so i should know more than anyone what it should and should not be. now, cluster/system/planet/moon/etc pages are mostly built from a gameplay perspective: what their in-universe descriptions say, statistical data, so on and so forth. for the most part they do correlate with what the lore says. in case not, then it's noted in a separate section: the trivia section. that is the standard procedure. we don't do commentaries in the middle of articles.
- in terms of clusters, the section is there to denote what places your normandy can actually fly into. it's trivially provable just by playing the games. in ME2 some clusters are omitted because they aren't relevant to your mission in the first place. in ME3 some clusters are omitted and you're just flying past them on the way to other destinations because reaper invasion. while we can be reasonably certain we're flying through omega nebula in 3 even if it only exists as a waypoint, we can't be 100% sure because it isn't accessible in the game in the first place. someone can say "alternate relay" in a nearby cluster and boom we're in speculation territory, and we have very low tolerance for it. remember, space is really vast and don't let the galaxy map size fool you into thinking otherwise. tl;dr we aren't actually 100% sure a cluster is connected to another cluster unless the games explicitly connect them (or novels and other material, though to my knowledge there isn't anything exclusive to them).
- tl;dr tl;dr: we only stick to things that are directly provable.
- as i said, this can be addressed in a case by case basis.
- ninmah cluster: i'm reasonably certain it actually connects to hawking eta in 3 - exists in roughly the same region of space if you overlay the galaxy maps - but without explicit proof best that's possible is a trivia note saying so.
- local cluster / arcturus stream / exodus cluster: the exodus cluster actually notes the discrepancy, though it would be better moved to trivia. probably by me to set an example once my schedule frees up.
- omega nebula: same deal as ninmah cluster. trivia note saying while it isn't accessible in 3 it is *probably* used as a waypoint because again we can't actually prove it
- anything else
- galaxy map connections rename: now that's a thought. i'll think about it. other people also have to concur though, not just me T̴̴͕̲̞̳̖̼̱͒͛̎͒ͫ̃ͧeͩ̈̽̈҉͓̝̰̼̦̫̤̀͠m̫̪̪̯̻͎̫̅̇̓̇͌̚p̸̙̝̓̓͌ͨ͆ͣͥ̂̕o͒̽͐̽͏̞̬̻͕͔͕͚̰͍͠͞ṙ̢̞͚͈̹̰ͨ̓ͭ̈́̌ạ̢̧̪̹̺̺̣̹̲͂͆̏ͪͨ͒ͭř̹͈͜͠y̷͍̻̜̹̼̾̽̈́e̵̹̼̟̦͚͐̈́͌͘d͉̲̣̻͉̱͗̅ḭ̷̻̆͋̆̓̔͝t̨͍̦̫̗͂̅̍̋̆ͩ͝ộ̫̟̬̳̝̲̾ͫ̒̿ͮ̑̚rͯ̎ͨͭ̄̿̽͛҉̠̫̱̠̘̘̲́ͅ7̩̻ͤͩͨ͝͡8̜̣̙͇̻ͨ͛͛̆͒̆̽̒͐͜͡ ͥ̍̉̃̇ͥ̓ͨ͏̕҉̥̹͓̗̤̠̖̤ (talk) 05:45, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- I think both of you offer compelling arguments, but for the moment I would side with Temporaryeditor on moving the aforementioned remarks to Trivia. But some clarification or rename on the galaxy map connections' part would be useful so as to let readers fully understand the implications of such information.--Loadingue (talk) 08:52, 7 February 2023 (UTC)