Talk: Assignments (Mass Effect 2)

Deletion Proposal

I'm kind of on the fence with this one. On one hand I think splitting the page is a good idea because there is a lot of content. On the other, it makes more sense to have all of the information together in one spot. Then again, what happens when ME3 is released? If the game in turn has much more content, then on assignments page will be a little unwieldy. A precedent must be set and followed, which means all other pages that are split either have to be merged, or all single pages have to be split. —ArmeniusLOD 00:05, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

I'm against deleting. This page seems to me like a perfect candidate for being split. It's long enough to be an article of its own, and the information it contains is all game-specific. I disagree that "all of the information together in one spot" makes more sense. Personally, I go looking at the assignments page either for ME1 information or ME2 information, not both at the same time. I also think that all splits/merges should be evaluated case-by-case as mentioned in Forum:ME1 and ME2. There's no all-encompassing right way. As far as suggestive guidelines go, I like the two I mentioned: length and game-specificity. -- Karm1c 00:20, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

Do what we did with the walkthough section. Where you click on ME1, ME2, or DLC

Agreed. Information specific to one game or another should be split (like this page and guides) while general information in the ME universe (like characters and planets) shouldn't. —ArmeniusLOD 00:31, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

All I currently see are ME2 assignments which is exactly what I was looking for. If it has already been split then this discussion should be removed. 75.6.136.214 00:42, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Actually the Assignments page still has both, so I assume that the debate is still running. It is probably also worth pointing out that splitting this page also has deeper ramifications (e.g. {{QuickNavBar}}). That's not a reason, in and of itself, not to split but it does mean that anyone wanting to keep the split will need to think through how navigation will be handled. [Note also that talk page discussion is never removed, by convention. However, I suspect what you meant was that the banners should be removed.] --DRY 00:48, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Although I'm definitely agreeing with the need to split this page, it was (as DRY said) done without considering the various other pages and templates that will require editing to fully implement it, the aforementioned {{QuickNavBar}} being one such item. Still, the split had to be done eventually. I say we keep this, but leave the ME2 assignments on the Assignments page as well until the templates and pages that will need to link to this are edited. --Rycr 06:00, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Agree with the split, this makes finding ME2 assignments much easier (especially if people do not have the first game, they probably do not know which are in ME1 CsAtlantis 14:24, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that the section headings would be a bit of a give-away though. --DRY 17:53, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Yea kinda forgot about the headings being totally different in ME2 compared to ME1, the assignment page looks much better(and sorted) now though CsAtlantis 09:16, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

It seems we have consensus. Can we remove the deletion proposal from the article? -- Karm1c 17:35, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

I agree as well, multiple games under same title, too much information for one page, should be seperated by game but remain the same wiki...maybe change the name of the wiki to "Mass Effect Universe"

Unless and until someone volunteers to address the navigation issues, the split should not proceed. Rather, the page should be replaced with a redirect to Assignments#Mass Effect 2, which should, I think, make both sides happy. --DRY 19:46, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

New QuickNavBar (Mass Effect 2) works. I don't see a reason to delete all the content from this page, just to re-add it later. Rather than re-directing from here to Assignments, we can just leave the existing disambiguation that leads from Assignments to here. -- Karm1c 20:24, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the quick nav bar is only one aspect. You'll still need to come up with a plan for everything inbound which requires either disambiguation or outright redirection. There's also the issue of cross-navigation through places which are common to both (e.g. Clusters). It's not a small or simple job, which is why no-one has jumped at it. --DRY 20:51, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

There's fewer than a hundred links there. Considering how much time has to be spent on any given planet scanning from orbit or scaling mountains with the Mako, that's nothing. As for cross-navigation, can you elaborate on what sort of issues you expect to crop up and their relation to the Assignment split? --Geiger 03:46, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Nevertheless, no-one has tackled the problem as yet. "Cross-navigation", in this context, means navigating between content areas which are ME2 aware and those which are not. For example, consider navigating into Clusters using the Template:QuickNavBarME2 and then trying to navigate back to Assignments (Mass Effect 2) from the Template:QuickNavBar at the top of that page. For my part, I still think that a simple redirection to Assignments#Mass Effect 2 is preferable to the effort and dubious benefit of performing a split. The principle argument in favour of the split has thus far been that finding the relevant ME2 assignments is too difficult. Redirecting directly to that section should address that requirement without the need for any extra work. --DRY 04:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

I see two options for handling the navigation issues. Option 1: Place a simple disambiguation link at the top of Assignments, just as we've done on this article. Option 2: Changes the Assignments page into a full-fledged disambiguation page, a la Walkthroughs, and move all the ME 1 Assignments to an [[Assignments (Mass Effect 1)]] article. I echo Geiger's sentiment and don't mind putting in the work, we just need to decide how to move forward on this. -- Karm1c 12:03, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

I would advise against a disambiguation page: it creates unnecessary work to no advantage. One would need to change all inbound links — or else require two clicks for every cross reference, which is unlikely to be acceptable. It would also break any existing anchored references (links of the form Assignments#Mass Effect 2 — although I believe that there are very few of those, effort still needs to be expended to check.) (Note also in passing that site policy is to refer to the first episode simply as Mass Effect.) There is still the question of how (or whether) to retain the quick bar as a primary navigation element. At the moment, there is no obviously acceptable way for it to be seamless for cross-navigation in all contexts. It still seems like an awful lot of trouble compared to a simple redirect. There is, after all, no content here which is not already present on the existing Assignments page. --DRY 13:25, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

I favor deletion for one simple reason. The orange bar hurts my eyes! Why couldn't a less gaudy color have been chosen? Maybe a lighter shade, or maybe a blue, or green? Why bright freaking orange? SpartHawg948 12:26, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Proposed layout: How to structure the split

Here's what I think we should end up with:

• Assignments — Full disambiguation page.
• Assignments (Mass Effect) — Assignments from the first game.
• Assignments (Mass Effect 2) — Assignments from the second game.
• QuickNavBar — Linked to Assignments
• Delete QuickNavBarME2

Then we work through the existing 159 links to the Assignments page and make sure they link properly to one of the three Assignment pages. I imagine that most are general links and, not being game-specific, would be appropriately linked to the disambig already. We'd be well-positioned for future links, having the option to link to something specifically ME1, something specifically ME2, or something non-specific. We would also have a repeatable pattern for adding on ME3 (or beyond) content. Agree or Disagree? -- Karm1c 19:11, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) But why? I still haven't seen a cogent argument why splitting this is a good idea. It's a lot more work than simply nailing in a redirect and the existing scheme already scales to ME3: all that need be added is a new section. Absent a strong argument for a split, I must cast my lot as "Disagree". (Please note that the main reasons that I am not keen on a split are: 1) that I've been that one who had to clean up after the last two attempts; and 2) I strongly suspect that there will be discontent and reverts from those who have just finished deciding that they want everything else — planets, systems, clusters, etc. — on one page regardless of episode. Coming out of the recent planets wikipedia/worldtypes fiasco — which is still not entirely fixed — I'm not all that eager to press forward on big structural changes unless there's considerable community buy-in. I do appreciate the constructive dialogue, though, and I maintain an open mind to further debate.) --DRY 19:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Does this mean that, assuming we could reach consensus that we should split, the proposed changes would satisfy the navigation concerns? I understand that it's more work than simply adding a section and a new redirect. If we actually did it though, do you agree that it would be navigationally acceptable? Just looking for some common ground here. -- Karm1c 12:21, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I personally don't much care for disambiguation pages, but if the consensus is to use one, I would not (of course) dissent. For my part, I find disambiguation pages somewhat inelegant: they introduce an extra, content free page (and an extra click). I generally prefer an approach like {{DisambigMsg}}, but obviously that would not be appropriate here. Again, my apparent intransigence is born mostly of a desire not to have to go through a third (or, in the event of a revert war, a fourth) clean up of a partial attempt. A corollary of this is a desire to limit the scope of any change so that it would be simple to undo, should that become necessary. These are obviously not fundamental concerns, and relate primarily to the mechanics of any change. On the other hand, as I mentioned, the consensus which was reached for other elements appearing on the same navigation bar (clusters, etc.) was not to split, which would lead to a somewhat unfortunate loss of uniformity. I would also personally like to see a compelling argument for the split, but even absent that, I would obviously not attempt to hinder a consensus decision. --DRY 14:45, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Why should the article be split

Assignments should be split. Agree or Disagree? -- Karm1c 17:59, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Assignments are obviously game-specific. I agree with sentiment repeated more than a few times throughout these split discussions that ArmeniusLOD stated above as, "Information specific to one game or another should be split (like this page and guides) while general information in the ME universe (like characters and planets) shouldn't." This is good content organization as it keeps disparate information separate and offers a repeatable, expandable pattern for future content. With game-specific articles, we'd have a place for game-specific links, e.g. the Assignments page for ME1 can refer to the Missions page for ME1, while the Assignments page for ME2 could refer to the Missions page for ME2. We've already done this with the various Guides to good effect, and see no reason not to continue with that in this case. -- Karm1c 17:59, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Agree. I agvree that it should be split and disagree with deletion of this page. If there isn't a general policy statement clearly explaining the above sentiment ("Information specific to one game or another should be split (like this page and guides) while general information in the ME universe (like characters and planets) shouldn't.") such a policy statement should exist and it should be made clear. It seems obvious to me that game-specific content belongs under its own subject page. Badken 20:02, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Keep the split for those of us using it as a ME2 walkthrough

People looking for certain assignments pertaining to just Mass Effect 2 don't want to wade through the Mass Effect 1 assignments just because it's easier to stick them all in one area. Keep the split so as to keep them organized and set a precident for Mass Effect 3.

keep the split

The assignment section needs to be split between Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. The section becomes confusing, and therefore obsolete without this split. Please keep this page up.

New Policy

In the now 4 months after the release of ME2, this is currently the only page that is split. So after a trial period, this page will be turned into a redirect to take users directly to the ME2 assignments section of the Assignments article. Again because this was the only page that was split, vs. the 5+ that were under the discussion, 5+ vs. 1, and after many of the other ME2 specific pages have either been turned into redirects or deleted all together, this one is the last one. If you still enter this into the search bar, it will take you directly to the ME2 seciton of the article. Lancer1289 06:33, May 29, 2010 (UTC)