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Better looking ME2 squad mate section Edit

You guys should combine Morinth and Samara's pictures and put "Morinth/Samara" underneath with links to each other's page, so that you get 3 even rows instead of what you have right now with Zaeed at the bottom. Also, it would make sense since Morinth and Samara take the same spot. -- Random guy just trying to help 19 March 2010

But they aren't the same person. They are two very distinct individuals, and as such, it makes sense to acknowledge them as such. Doing anything else would make no sense at all. When it comes to issues of accuracy vs aesthetics, accuracy wins out every time. I'd rather be spot on with the info and have the visual appeal suffer a bit than have it look great but not be wholly accurate. SpartHawg948 08:42, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Awww well it's not entirely for aesthetics, Morinth and Samara occupy the same spot in your squad, whatever, I'm done it was worth a try

Well, given that the way you proposed is less accurate than the current version, it would seem to be entirely for aesthetics. They occupy the same slot on your squad, but again, they are two vastly different individuals, with different personalities, talents, etc, and if you check the official site, they are listed separately (well, sort of... Morinth, as well as Legion, is listed as ???). For these reasons, they have separate spaces. SpartHawg948 08:59, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

Nope...that other classified character is Garrus. They don't want to reveal who Archangel is. I still think my idea has merit but I won't push it anymore

You are correct about the Garrus thing (well, probably. Given that it's ??? we can't know for sure...) But at the end of the day, they are two different characters with, as mentioned above, very different personalities, very different talents, etc. And separate characters don't get lumped together just because they look alike and because you can only have one or the other, not both. Accuracy comes first and foremost, and as they are two very different characters, it's more accurate to depict them as such. SpartHawg948 21:00, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

I said I'd let it go, I mean I don't even know how I should be formatting this so I'm screwing up the page, but I get the feeling you aren't understanding me...I'm not saying put Morinth and Samara in the same article or something, just put them in the same picture with their names still separated and linking to the pages they have now...ok, I'm done

No, I understand completely. Instead of two separate spots/images, one for Samara and one for Morinth, with a grand total of 13 spots in 3 rows of 4 with Zaeed all by himself at the bottom, you want to merge Samara and Morinth into one block, which will be halved, one half showing Morinth and the other half Samara, both names being listed below, with the net result that there will now be only 12 spots in 3 nice, neat rows of 4. You made this abundantly clear. And I am saying that, as two vastly different characters (who, I will acknowledge, do occupy the same spot in your squad depending on which you choose) the most accurate way to depict the squad members section is to give them each their own separate block, which is how it is done now. Aesthetics be damned! I care about accuracy! :P SpartHawg948 09:05, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Character List Edits Edit

I'm organizing the list into factions, with a section dedicated entirely to the crew of the Normandy. I thought doing it like this as opposed to just alphabetical order would make it seem more like an encyclopedia (like it's supposed to be) rather than an index (which it's not). I'm not completely done, as I haven't beaten the game yet and half of the characters are unidentifiable to me (not to mention I need to cut my freakin' nails before I keep working on this), so feel free to make edits. Just remember, it should be split up by faction, like Systems Alliance and Geth Revolutionaries and other stuff like that. There should also be short, succinct character descriptions under each of the character names.

So yeah! Any complaints, problems, issues, or murderous flames, you know who I am, and I'll even leave my signature behind just so you can spam it with death threats.

--Yamamoto114 07:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

While I agree with you completely about being an encyclopedia, it is useful when gathering information to keep lists while that information is being sorted. I added a link to this article for an alphabetical list. --avfanatic (talk) 14:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Good thinking. I'll get to work further on sorting it out and making additions. Once I finish the game. XD Again, feel free to help out! --Yamamoto114 07:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(deceased) tag Edit

When editing this post, I noticed that Corporal Jenkins had the (deceased) tag next to his name. Now, while it's not much of a spoiler that Corporal Jenkins dies in the first few minutes of the game, you can talk to him before the first mission. Since he's not dead at the beginning of the game, I would think the (deceased) tag would be inappropriate for him.

On the other hand, Private Bhatia is, for all we know, dead before the mission even starts, and only referenced to by other people, posthumously. This is why I applied the tag to her.

KensterFox 04:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

pics Edit

Can someone with a capture card record some ingame characters so we can post them here? thanks. oh and if you do, be sure to deactivate the subtitles. Dutchduc

I personally think it would be better encourage the removal of pre-production screenshots and replacement with screenshots from the actual game of characters, as in some pre-pro shits they are not represented as-seen in the final game. I am particularly thinking of the shot of Garrus, Ashley and Liara on the Normandy used in this section. Anyone agree/disagree? --LeathamGrant 19:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

They're actually there because they were the best shots I had available at the time. We don't have any comm-room-conference shots, though, those might look nice here. (Unfortunately I have no means of taking screenshots as my PC version does not work on my computer, so I'm grateful for any screenshots people are kind enough to donate.) --Tullis 19:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I'll have a dig through my extensive collection. I understand the shot is nice because it shows the crew members in a scene on the Normandy, so I'll try and see if I can find something of a similar ilk --LeathamGrant 19:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Quotes Edit

I'm adding some quotes to the top of squadmate pages... there's some great lines in Mass Effect, shame not to see 'em. Just an experiment. If they look stupid, say so. Or better yet, give suggestions for funnier lines I might have missed. : ) --Tullis 07:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

We should expand upon this by listing every quote / remark towards aliens or Shephard or companions or even the world, that the main squad members have made in their life-time, as many people miss these and sometimes they are crucial or important facts, as well as being interesting.

I don't think I'll be able to do it however so I'd have to requisition either a specific page and thus gradual edits on it, or some other way to do it.--Delsana 23:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I think every single quote might be a little much. I have been considering a quotes page but I need to look into it a little more. --Tullis 00:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Well if each main planet has 2 - 3 statements by each companion, in addition to an occasional 1 - 2 more if in another section of the planet that is important, as well as the possible 1 or 2 conversation input quotes they make, I'd have to say it wouldn't be "huge" but it would be a project. Regardless, I'd like to see which quotes I missed. --Delsana 00:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I was thinking more of a Wookiepedia-style quotes page for the main characters. --Tullis 00:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Characters from Novels Edit

All the characters from Mass Effect: Ascension have currently been dumped under the Systems Alliance characters heading, including enemies. Do we need a separate section for all characters from novels (say putting all the ME:Revelation characters under one heading), or are we going to organise them by Alliance / enemies / etc? --Tullis 14:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Dividers Edit

I played with some dividers to better split up the Alliance characters as I couldn't clearly tell where the Normandy crew stopped and the rest started. I don't know if you want to keep them, scrap them or apply the same to the other major sections...? Any thoughts? --LeathamGrant 21:02, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Look okay but I want to tweak them slightly later. They might make it easier to handle that HUGE roll of pictures down the right there too. --Tullis 21:34, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul Edit

I think we need to do a major overhaul of this page. Having Category:Characters means there's no point simply repeating all the characters' names here. What do we think this page should be like? Who's worth putting on here, and who's worth leaving to an article link? --Tullis 01:01, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

SSV Normandy Crew Edit

Why was my edit to the SSV Normandy Crew section reverted? As it currently is it goes beyond the edge of the page. Thus it should be changed to two rows, since leaving it with one is extremely sloppy. Immolo 13:35, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Um, from my POV it doesn't actually go beyond the edge of the page, and no one else has reported it, but that's beside the point. It was reverted for the same reason we fixed gallery row organisation; having a big gap in the section also looks sloppy. I'll see if there's another way to organise it. --Tullis 13:38, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
Okay, try it now. I had to split them into two tables--the problem is mostly with having an odd number of images. --Tullis 13:49, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions Edit

How about we add an 'Allies' section above adversaries instead of the Normandy crew section. We can keep Anderson and Joker, but also add the conspicuously absent Udina. I mistakenly added character boxes to the minor crew members because I thought their getting images in the character section meant they were recognised by the wiki as major characters.

As for the Thorian, isn't it both a race and a character? It's mentioned several times that it's a unique organism/species all on it's own. I propose we should move it to the races page since as an adversary, it wasn't really as integral to the overall plot as Saren, Sovereign and Benezia.--TheWilsonator 12:56, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Having an allies section makes sense (though Udina's inclusion may get a few raised eyebrows :D ). For what characters have infoboxes, I go by the characters listed on the Mass Effect poster: Shepard, all squad members, Joker, Udina, Anderson, Benezia, and Saren.
The Thorian's one of those grey areas. I agree with its removal from this page as an adversary, but I'd dispute describing it as an "extinct race". There's too much we don't know about it. "Creature" about covers it.
On another note: the races page now looks very cool, but I'd like to leave it as is for now, rather than constantly swapping the pictures around. If the defunct pictures aren't deleted, it means we have a lot of pictures going unused. And... could you please take a second to categorise images when you upload them? It takes about a second, and saves me an awful lot of time and trouble going through reams of pictures later. : ) --Tullis 13:04, October 13, 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the go ahead on an allies section, I'm sure Udina will enjoy the publicity, and you're probably right about the Thorian.
I'm pretty much done with swapping pics on the races page. The Drell needed an image, the human one was a little over saturated and the Quarian one was a beta design- but that's all sorted out. The artifacts on the asari picture are tugging at my OCD though =P.
As for categorising pics, it totally slipped my mind. Can you categorise them when you upload them or do you have to do it manually after you've done so? Either way, I'll check out my upload log and categorise any images I may have uploaded rather than have you clean up after me again. --TheWilsonator 13:23, October 13, 2009 (UTC)
There's a page for uncategorised images if you want to find yours: Special:UncategorizedFiles, or you can check the gallery of new files. Yes, you can add the category while uploading: just put it in with the picture summary, like this.
[[Captain Anderson]] beside the [[SSV Normandy]]. [[Category:Characters]] [[Category:Screenshots]] [[Category:Starships]]
If you don't add it when you're uploading, there's an easy category bar to add them at the bottom just above the page summary, and that's pretty quick and easy to use. It's not a huge problem, but it makes finding images sooo much easier, keeps everything organised and gives me one less job to do. : ) I'm not "cleaning up" after anyone (there's been a load of new images lately from a lot of people), just trying to keep things in order, and I just know there's going to be a deluge of images when ME2 comes out. And I also want to stay the heck away from ME2 images as much as possible, as my spoiler-avoidance is problematic, so I'm hoping people will do those for me. : ) --Tullis 14:28, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Love the way this page is organised but some pretty major characters in the plot of the first game are conspicuously absent, for example Captain Kirrahe. IMO major characters to the plot of the game should be listed, namely those listed on the Storyline page, as well as the pages with more detailed plot summaries, as they all play a role within the main plot of the game. A good way to divide them would be:

Party: Shepard, Kaidan, Ashley, Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Liara.

Normandy: Joker, Jenkins, Pressly, Dr Chakwas

Allies: Anderson, Udina, Hackett, Nihlus, the Council

Enemies: Saren, Benezia, Sovereign

Citadel: Harkin, Barla Von, Dr Chloe Michel, Fist, Avina

Feros: Fai Dan, Arcelia Silva Martinez, Ian Newstead, Juliana Baynham, Ethan Jeong, Lizbeth Baynham, The Thorian, Shiala

Noveria: Anoleis, Gianna Parasini, Lorik Qui'in, Ventralis, Mira, Rachni Queen

Virmire: Kirrahe, Rentola, Rana Thanoptis

Ilos: Vigil

I'm not quite confident enough to perform an edit this large myself so I'll leave it for someone else, especially as other characters may need to be added. However I don't think anyone should be taken off this list as these characters are all important to the plot.Garhdo 10:15, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

  • Ok... lets see... Pressly and Chakwas are not important to the plot, and Jenkins most certianly is not important (at all) so those three can be stricken from the list... That leaves Joker, who is better placed in the Allies section anyways. So there goes the Normandy section.
  • Nihlus is another Jenkins. Never in your party, and only relevant to the plot in that he got gunned down like a putz. So there he goes. The Council collectively is somewhat important, but the Council is not a character, the Councilors are, and individually, not that important to the plot. Hackett doesn't have a picture, and he's not important to the main plot, just side quests, so there he goes. That leaves Joker, Anderson and Udina for Allies. Wait a second... isn't that how it already is? :)
  • Enemies- no names need removed, but one needs added. Get to that in a sec...
  • Citadel- None of these people are important to the plot. You can do the entire game and only talk to each of them once, if at all, and once you leave them that time, that's it. Not what I'd call important. So there goes that entire section.
  • Feros, Noveria, Virmire and Ilos- Same as the Citadel for pretty much all of them (sure you talk to a couple twice, but at the end of the day, this is for prominent characters, not plot characters). Only exception is the Thorian, who is an adversary, so he gets booted up to Enemies. And that, in a nutshell, leaves the list as we now have it! As I say all too often around here, if it's not broke, don't fix it, and this would be a major (and pretty faulty) "fix" for something that isn't broke.
  • Please remember, this is a list of MAJOR characters, not plot characters. The vast majority of the characters listed on the proposed change (Jenkins, Nihlus, Pressly, Chakwas, virtually everyone in the Citadel, Noveria, Feros, Ilos and Virmire sections) are NOT major characters by any stretch of the imagination. If you want a more comprehensive list, please feel free to follow the link at the top of the character page. SpartHawg948 11:26, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong but this page is titled Characters, not Main Characters, not Major characters, but Characters. If you wish it only to include the main characters it should be retitled as such. Secondly it would seem as if you have not played the game in a considerable length of time not to include some of these characters as main. I will accept some of what you say save for the following.::*Shepard is still missing from this page, despite being the central Character for the entire storyline, and therefore the one character no-one could argue against being on this page.
  • Admiral Hackett is one of the three characters who selects Shepard as a Spectre Candidate in the opening, along with Anderson and Udina. He is credited as a main Character, provides you with the majority of the games sidequests, AND leads the attack on Sovereign in the game's final moments. Certainly a prime candidate for this page, despite his lack of picture - there is no picture for the novel or Galaxy characters yet they are included.
  • Fist should be included in the enemies list, as he is the primary antagonist on the Citadel, central to your recruitment of three party characters and therefore a major stepping stone in the quest to expose Saren's betrayal to the Council.
  • Kirrahe and Vigil should certainly both be included. With Kirrahe and his team you put a major dent in Saren's plans but destroying the facility on Virmire, and Vigil reveals more of the plot than any other single character in the game.
  • Other main characters from quest planets would be Lizbeth, who gives you a lot of information about ExoGeni's activities and the effects of the Thorian on the Colony of Zhu's Hope (the main mission on Feros); Shiala, who provides you with the Cipher, a key part of unraveling Saren's plot; And pretty much every character on Noveria is part of the main missions necessary to complete the planet, especially Anoleis, Parasini, Qui'in, Ventralis, and possibly even Alestia, Han Olar, and Dr Cohen.Garhdo 21:14, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
  • It is titled characters, but as is made clear, it is not intended to be an all-inclusive list. That's why a link is provided to the Characters category. As for game time, yes, I have played through the game many times. Not that this seems relevant, but you asked.
  • Shepard is the player character, so no real need to include the Commander. Combine that with the fact that doing so would be nigh-impossible, given our policy on Shepard and gender (elaborated upon in the Style Guide).
  • Hackett is never pictured, so at best he'd be listed at the bottom, but again, he talks in a few cutscenes. That's his main plot involvement, and your reasoning was that these are plot-vital characters.
  • Fist is an adversary, but hardly in the league of the Thorian, Saren, Sovereign and Benezia.
  • The rest honestly aren't major characters. I know it doesn't state as such in the title of the article, but the article was getting out of hand before, which is why it was reorganized into a "major characters" page. If you follow the links, you will note they are all fairly lengthy, well fleshed-out articles, as opposed to the articles for pretty much all the characters you listed and I objected to. This page is intended to showcase the major characters, and the ones you want to add just don't fit in with that goal. SpartHawg948 21:25, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
I still disagree and feel that Shepard, Hackett, Fist, Kirrahe and Vigil should be included, especially as some of the novel and Galaxy characters including on this page have smaller impacts on the plot than these (Jiro and Black Eye are two such examples). And Shepard can still be placed in here using either the default picture or the N7 logo. As the player character he is the most important character within the entire universe and deserves to be on the character page. However as a newer contributor here I will leave this judgement to Admins such as yourself. I would however ask you to rejudge the impacts these characters have on the main plot, especially Hackett, Fist, Kirrahe and Vigil, before you decide to disregard them completely. However if they are disregarded then I make a formal request of the Admin that this page be retitled Main Characters in order to avoid issues such as this in the future.Garhdo 23:45, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

Illusive Man Edit

Does he really belong as an ally? Honestly, i'm on the fence with this one.

If not an ally, what would he be then? He isn't a squad member, and he does not appear to be an adversary, either. Ally- "A person, group, or nation that is associated with another or others for some common cause or purpose", also "a person who associates or cooperates with another; supporter". Given that Shepard and the Illusive man are working together for a common cause, at least as far as the Collector situation goes, I would have to say he fits the definition of an ally quite well. Certainly better than the definition of an adversary " a person, group, or force that opposes or attacks; opponent; enemy; foe." So yes, he does belong as an ally, at least for now. Further info may throw this into doubt again, but for now he is an ally. SpartHawg948 01:34, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
The Gametrailers video makes it pretty clear he's an ally in that you're working with him because he has what you need to complete your mission, but you're at odds with him at all times and in some ways your nemesis. Sounds to me like he plays a similar role to the council in the first game. Also remember that just because someone is 'bad' doesn't mean he's not an ally. So based on the information we have he's not necessarily a good guy, but he is an ally, at least at first. JakePT 02:47, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Mass Effect 2 Edit

I'm wondering if splitting the adversaries, squadmates and allies sections into Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 sections would be wise? They are separated by a small gap but it's still not entirely clear. Although it would raise issues regarding where to put characters from both, such as Tali. Discuss :) JakePT 08:27, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I would say no just because of the repetition of some characters... do we put them under both, or just one and mention their names under the other, or do we just keep the nice, uniform way we have now? We're about 2 months from release... any confusion about what role certain people will play will be cleared up then and we can adjust accordingly, but for now I think we should stick to the old saw "if it's not broke, don't fix it." SpartHawg948 09:32, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

What happened? Edit

to Kaidan's picture?--Xaero Dumort 21:36, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? Not sure what you are referring to. It looks just fine on my end. SpartHawg948 21:39, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
Ok... guess it must have been nothing? SpartHawg948 22:31, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
Huh, it's fine now. Earlier couldn't see it, or even highlight the area where it was supposed to be.--Xaero Dumort 00:21, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
It may have been a caching error. It happens occasionally, usually when I'm adding pictures to a page; they simply don't appear and you need to either refresh the page a bunch of times or wait until later. --Tullis 13:28, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Thorian & The Council Edit

Would it be alright to add the Thorian and the Council members to the adversaries and allies sections, respectively? Tophvision 02:15, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

I have no real objection to the Thorian move, but not so sure about the Council members. Depending on how you play it you can have a pretty adversarial relationship w/ them (especially the turian Councilor) to the point of letting them die. And it kind of raises some issues w/ ME2, as there will be different Councilors there depending on what ending you chose, I'm sure. SpartHawg948 02:21, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

An ME2 Character (Spoilers) Edit

  • Spoilers*

Should we add Garrus to ME2 Allies? If he ends up being a squad member we can just move him, or if he's not, how big will his role have to be to put him there?

Just thinking 'out loud'. JakePT 04:57, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Basically the allies criteria would be either A)Having a major plot/story role in aiding Shepard (ie Captain Anderson, Ambassador Udina. the Illusive Man) or B)Being someone who, while not an actual squadmember is still pretty much a permanent fixture with whom you interact regularly (ie Joker). Someone who just passes through briefly need not apply. So, if there is evidence to support Garrus filling either of those roles in ME2, sure. But from what I've seen, no such evidence exists. For all we know, his appearance could be as the ME2 version of Cpl. Jenkins or Nihlus. SpartHawg948 05:31, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Tali Name Edit

Just to clarify on a revert I made of an edit that changed Tali's name under ME2 to vas Normandy. My spoiler excuse wasn't very good, since there's a spoiler warning, but I still don't think it makes sense to have the same character on the page twice, but with two different names. Also, we don't know at which point she takes on that name, or if she'll take it for all players (we've been told not all characters are required recruitments), and even if she does take it early, at the start of the game her name is still, presumably, Rayya, and should stay that way until after the game comes out, at least. Or, we could just change it to simply 'Tali' under both listings. JakePT 06:03, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

I think it makes perfect sense to list her with two different names if she has a different name in each game. Although really it seems completely redundant to me to have a character listed twice at all, but since we have the games split up like we do I guess it's necessary. As far as when she gets the name I think it's quite clear from the trailer that she takes it before she joins your squad which means she'll have it for the vast majority of the game. As for her not having that name for player's that don't have her as a squad member, I really don't think that matters since she's listed under squad members on this page. If she's in your squad that's the name she'll have. I guess I can concede though that we don't know all of this for sure and it could maybe wait until the game comes out. --Zinc Saucier 06:32, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
See my thinking is that she doesn't actually have different names in the two games, in ME2, at the start at least, she is still nar Rayya, not vas Normandy. JakePT 10:26, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, that was my thinking on the subject too. We don't know when in the game she takes the name, and it is not, for the record, quite clear that she takes it before she joins the squad. This may seem likely, but there really is no evidence for it in the existing videos. So, yeah, we should just wait till ME2 releases, both for the reason I just stated, and b/c it does constitute a spoiler. SpartHawg948 10:55, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
From the look of it, we don't have a choice; random people are going to keep changing it to "vas Normandy" regardless. Either we embed a request in the page (which often get ignored anyway) or we put up with it. --Tullis 17:28, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
Whatev... if they want to keep changing it I can keep reverting it till the game comes out. Hopefully they'll catch on eventually, but I'm not holding my breath. SpartHawg948 20:28, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
From Tali's profile on the Bioware website: "Following the Geth assault on the Citadel, Tali returned to the Migrant Fleet and joined the crew of the Neema." If you're going to try to name her based on the beginning of the game, shouldn't her name be Tali'Zorah vas Neema? Since she theoretically at one time or another possesses 1 of 3 different surnames, I guess there has to be some rationale for choosing one of them - if one of them is to be chosen. She is currently listed under "squad members"; if you're going to put a surname at all, it seems to me that it should be "vas Normandy," since that is her name when she is a member of your squad. Just my $0.02 20:53, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
Oh my, I just noticed that the Bioware website has improper species capitalization! Should it be listed as an "unreliable source"? 21:04, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Commander Shepard Edit

Why isn't Shepard listed anywhere on this page? It seems like a pretty major absence to me. I was going to add a section for him/her myself, but I just couldn't really think of the best way to do it. --Zinc Saucier 06:53, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Well for starters there's the fact that we don't use images of Shepard (with the one exception being the default male/female faces for the Commander Shepard page). Also, is it really necessary to include the player character here? I see no real need, nor is there a readily apparent place to list Shepard. SpartHawg948 07:43, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
There being no readily apparent place is the only reason I didn't add it myself. Maybe what this should tell us isn't that we should leave Shepard off, but that maybe the page itself needs to be redesigned. This is a page for the characters of ME and Shepard is the main character in the game, so yeah, I think it's necessary. There are other characters I think should be listed here too, like Admiral Hackett, who we also can't include a picture of since literally none exist. I'm thinking this page could be expanded into a more extensive list with more in universe categories and then maybe a separate page could be created just for the squad members and could look more like this one. But I'm just thinking out loud here. As is there just seems to be a lot missing and the choices of who's important enough to be included and in which categories (other than the squadmates) seems very subjective. -- Zinc Saucier 07:41, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
I don't see it as being subjective at all. It's a list of the characters in-game that you interact with heavily, as well as the main adversaries, and then the major characters from the books. You talk to Hackett a few times over a comm. He's a faceless disembodied voice. I'd say he doesn't qualify as major enough for this page. Fun fact, if you click on the "Characters" category link at the bottom of the page, it takes you to a list of ALL the characters! That pretty much covers the more extensive list thing. There's no need to make this an unnecessarily long, ultra-categorized page when the categorized lists already appear in their respective categories. This page is nice b/c it's a nice, visually appealing page w/ quick and obvious links to the pages for the characters that the most people want to know about. As such, I see no real need for a redesign. SpartHawg948 11:58, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
This page also originally listed EVERY character, and quickly became too cluttered to be useable. Keeping it down to the absolutely most important characters, and giving a link to a full alphabetised list at the top (because it is at the top too), has served us well. --Tullis 16:24, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
And no, I don't think we should have Shepard on this page. Shepard is linked from pretty much every other article, and there isn't really a place for the PC on here. If push came to shove, and said shove left me dangling from a cliff, we'd use the N7 logo on here for Shepard. But otherwise, no. --Tullis 17:24, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
You're probably right about keeping the page simple. I guess it just struck me as odd at first since the page is called "Characters", not "Major Characters" or "Squad Members + A Few Others", and I had originally come here expecting something more thorough. Shepard being omitted still bothers me though, but if no one else agrees I guess I can drop it. But Hackett, he's a constant presence throughout the game giving you new assignments. Lance Henrikson is even listed in the game's credits right alongside the actors playing Shepard, Saren, Benezia, Joker, Anderson, and all your squad members. Hackett is among them as one of the few characters actually named there. If that doesn't objectively classify him as important I don't know what would. -- Zinc Saucier 20:26, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
Having a face? : ) --Tullis 20:51, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
Indeed. He wasn't a major enough character to warrant even a 5-second holographic conversation in the comm room, or a personal appearance, even after his part in the big final battle. And he didn't really have as consistent a presence as the others, when ypu get down to it. Every time you talked to him it was for one reason and one reason only, he was giving you a mission. Whereas with other characters like Anderson or Joker, or even more minor characters like Pressly and Chakwas, you could actually converse with them, find things out about them personally, or whatever. Hackett was just your dispatcher. That fact, along with the absence of a face, speaks volumes about his prominence compared to the other characters. SpartHawg948 21:25, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
I've been here 3 days, I'm having one hell of a time finding Commander Shephard's page (mainly because I keep misspelling Shepard with too many e's, not enough a's, and occasionally an h for good measure). So my next logical assumption? Let's look for him/her in the Characters page that is so prominently displayed on the front page. Nothing. Nadda. Zilch. I doubt I'm the only one who's going to do that. I think Sheperd is a necessary inclusion to this page. Heck, perhaps Shepard should be put at the top above ME, centered, with the picture of both the default male and female side-by-side. Big, prominent, and displayed with a clear throwback to the customizable aspect --forgottenlord 17:52, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

2 more characters to be revealed Edit

So according to this;; "And there's more character, too. There are ten characters you can get as part of your total team to draw from, versus the six in the original Mass Effect." We have a much bigger choice, and not to mention we are to expect 2 more characters. Your thoughts? Cynxos 23:27, December 4, 2009 (UTC)

I think you should sign your posts with 4 tildes (this guy~)! :P Other than that, it seems pretty cut and dry. More squad members. What I think about that is... there's gonna be more squad members. SpartHawg948 21:29, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

An ME2 Character (Spoilers) Part Deux Edit

So should we add Joker to the ME2 Allies? Apparently he's still the pilot of the SR-2, so it's the same role as ME1 and presumably the same size? JakePT 08:00, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Sure, although it would be preferable to use a picture of him that's actually from ME2... not sure whether there are any good ones yet, haven't really been following the images thing. SpartHawg948 08:15, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
Wow. I was gonna say I wasn't terribly sold on the ME2 Joker picture but that it would work for now till something better came along, then I glanced at the ME picture for him. Is there any chance of getting some better pics? Maybe ones where you can actually get a decent look at his face? Everyone else has a head-shot, w/ the exception of Garrus and his action hero picture, but w/ Joker it's a ginormous chair and, oh, look! Isn't that Joker there, too? SpartHawg948 08:38, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
I just cropped this out of a screenshot in the Joker article. I think it's a better choice.
Joker ME1 Character Shot
JakePT 08:47, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
It sure is! Awesome! SpartHawg948 08:49, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
I would actually prefer another shot from the original ME for Joker, not because I don't like the shot, but because the original screenshot for that crop was taken with the film grain on and all the others are high-quality grain-less images. And the ME2 picture seems incredibly desaturated, which is weird because all the ME2 shots we have on here have been highly saturated. I may try and fix it (it looks really weird beside the Illusive Man's shot, which has high saturation and gamma). This is our page to showcase characters, after all; even Joker has his vanity. : ) Besides, now I think of it, aren't we short of Joker pics in general? --Tullis 13:25, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Cast Page Edit

I've been thinking that maybe a Cast page is a good idea. Somewhere where the voice (and model) cast is listed in full. At the moment all we have is small notes on some character pages about who played them, and some people who voiced multiple roles have no place to see what other characters they voiced. It seems like a good idea to have a cast page for Mass Effect since one of the big selling points is its pretty high profile voice cast.

It would be something simple, IMDB like where it's a list of cast members next to the roles they played with links to the characters page.

I'm not sure if this idea has been floated before, if an actual page exists already. I did a search of pages and talk pages and couldn't find anything, so if it exists, it's very well hidden.

PS: I didn't know where to put this, and the Characters page is the most closely related so I just put it here.

Honestly, thus far we've avoided real-life pages like that, and I'd really like to keep it that way. Another problem is that many of the more minor characters VA notes are of dubious veracity, as is using IMDB as a reference. It came to our attention a while back that IMDB is not an accurate source, as they have been known to accept faulty information as fact w/out making an attempt to verify it. Most of the VA names listed (other than the credited roles) are guesswork on the part of two of the editors, and while they state that they are reliable for this, there have been instances where they conflict, and we really have no way to resolve that. Personally, I see no problem with us just having the VA listed in the article in question. as we really don't need to start down the road of, say, Wookieepedia or Halopedia, with their overabundance of RL pages. SpartHawg948 06:01, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
Several months later, I still think this is a good idea. :D Doubt anyone else has changed their mind. The only thing that's changed has been the development of this thread on the official forums which has had some developer input (via PM/email, as well as just posts, from what I can tell):
I don't see the harm in one page for all this information, but whatever, if no one else wants it... whatever. JakePT 09:55, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

Reapers Edit

For some reason people keep inserting "the reapers" as adversaries. Now, I know from personal experience that this message isn't really going to change much, as the people who do this rarely read the talk pages thoroughly, but I'll spell it out anyways. There is one very simple reason that it is not acceptable to put "the reapers" or "Reapers" or anything of the sort under adversaries. This is a page about characters. The Reapers are not characters, they are a race. This means that Reapers should be on the Races page, not here on the Characters page. Oh, wait, it is on the Races page already!!! So please, no more inserting of "the reapers" as adversaries on the Characters page. They aren't characters any more than "the humans" or "the salarians" are. Thanks, SpartHawg948 22:04, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Legion Edit

Legion is in the Adversaries section at the moment, because as of the beginning of the game and according to marketing, that's what he is (apparently). However it looks like, based on the leaked achievements, that he will eventually be a squadmate, or at least you'll have the option to bring him along. The thing is though, it's quite clear that BioWare has no intention of telling us this and is keeping it a secret. Unfortunately for many of us we've already figured out the secret, but what do we do for readers who haven't? If Legion does end up a squadmate do we move him out of Adversaries and into Squadmates? That would ruin what I'd imagine is supposed to be something of a surprise for a lot of readers who haven't been following ME2 as religiously as us.

  • Spoilers for Dragon Age*

It seems like the situation is somewhat similar to what happens with Loghain in Dragon Age. Should we follow the Dragon Age's wiki and refer to Legion as a 'Secret Squadmate' in areas that don't adequately warn about spoilers, including the characters page?

Another issue is that is looks like they were trying to treat Garrus the same way, but slipped up when they showed the Omega gameplay clip where Garrus was called Archangel.

My vote is that Legion stays in Adversaries, even after the game comes out (assuming he isn't officially revealed as a squadmate before then), and a 10th icon labelled 'Secret Squadmate' or something like that, preferably less lame, with a decent spoiler warning under Squadmates that links to Legion.

All this is assuming Legion ends up being a squadmate, but all signs point to 'yes' at the moment. JakePT 01:35, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

I like that idea, although I would add that all signs do not, in fact, point to yes for Legion being a squadmate. Most do, but the definitive one thus far (the one that let us finally add Garrus) did not. Still, I am very much in favor of your idea if/when it turns our Legion is a "secret" squadmate. SpartHawg948 04:06, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

New Squadmate ConfirmedEdit

A bounty hunter/mercenary called Zaeed Messani, available as DLC. Apparantly he comes free with new copies of ME2 a la Shale in DA:O. --WilsonatorUK 14:45, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Two things: it states he's from a DLC, but aren't there 10 squadmates right from the beginning, supposed to be? And 2: Is it possible to get an English translation of the source, as it is in Norge. H-Man Havoc 18:10, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Here's the translated article: Matt 2108 18:54, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
Link doesn't work. We need to get a source with the quickness, or the speculation buster in me is going to take over and start undoing things to bring the articles in line with what we do know about Zaeed Messani, as opposed to what is, at this time, pure speculation. SpartHawg948 21:35, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Morinth Edit

I realize most people are getting the game tomorrow, but seeing as how it's been confirmed in streams and screenshots that Morinth is a squad member, should we add her to the squad list? Or should we leave her off because she's not what you'd consider a "standard" squad member? I mean that in the sense that she's not a regularly joining character: you can go the entire game without ever meeting her, and she's sort of a fringe join, to say the least, and except for her unique skill, she's exactly the same as Samara. It would be conceivable to just add a note on Samara's page seeing as how she replaces her anyway and is almost exactly the same

I know she's on the squad portion of the ME2 section, but she technically is an enemy as well (on the basis of her crimes and conversations w/ Shep and assuming the player sides with Samara), so could Morinth be duplicated to the adversaries of ME2 as well? H-Man Havoc 15:31, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
Um how about no since she is a squad member and considering who is in the adversaries section, it isn't appropriate, and she doesn't classify as an adversary by the terms we use. We do have it organized that way for a reason and we don't need to duplicate information. Lancer1289 17:38, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Kelly Chambers Edit

Should she be added to the list under ME2 allies? Especially since she's a romance option... --forgottenlord 17:11, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Collector General and Harbinger Edit

The Collector General that "possesses" the Keepers is listed as Harbinger while you're fighting him. As we discover at the end, Harbinger is, in fact, the supervising Reaper and is the controller of the Keepers. While I have little problem with listing the Collector General or Harbinger, I would only list one, not both, since they are effectively the same. My personal preference would be to list the Collector General instead as it provides a lesser spoiler while communicating the same concept. --forgottenlord 18:24, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

But they're two different beings. The end shows that. Harbinger just had control of the General most of the time, but that doesn't make them the same. If there's two differnt pages, there should be two links anyway, otherwise no one will recognize the General and Harbinger are not the same thing. I have a friend who keeps saying that Harbinger is the General 100%, and the Reaper seen at the end is a completely different thing. Making this one link might cause others to think similarly wrong theoris. You can't mislead people just to "protect" them from spoilers, that's wrong. Besides, the link here doesn't even say who or what Harbinger is, how is that spoiling anything? That's like saying the link to Sovereign is a spoiler and should be replaced by just one link to Saren or something so it doesn't spoil anything. 23:36, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

The concept of the "Collector General" as a title, I believe (someone confirm) comes from BioWare who said that any Collector could be possessed by the Collector General, instantly becoming more powerful and more difficult to kill. By that very statement, the Collector General they highlight is, in fact, Harbinger and the Collector sitting in the control room that we keep referring to as the Collector General is, in fact, no one short of Harbinger's avatar in the Collector base to keep things running. They are, effectively, the same person or, rather, the Collector General is, in fact, Harbinger. As distinct opponents, there is even less reason to have them seperate. The "Collector General" does nothing but press buttons the entire game. Harbinger is the one that consistently fights you, Harbinger is the one that is actually making the decisions, and Harbinger is the one that actually talks. --forgottenlord 18:02, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Splitting pages Edit

Why are there tags on a bunch of pages like this about splitting up the pages into ME1 and ME2 versions, and yet no discussion on each page? Is this vandalism?

The "Discuss" link goes to a forum page about the matter in general, which isn't really the best way to go about it. The discussion should occur on a case-by-case basis, with the discussion taking place on the article talk pages, not some forum. Regardless, I cannot stress how much I oppose splitting this into Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 Character pages. Here's why- It wouldn't just need to be split into Mass Effect Characters and Mass Effect 2 Characters pages. We'd need 7 characters pages. Let me repeat- If this split happens WE WILL NEED SEVEN FREAKING CHARACTERS PAGES!!! I'm still not sure the guy who originally proposed this gets this. We can't just split it into Mass Effect Characters and Mass Effect 2 Characters, because we'd also need new pages for the characters from Mass Effect: Galaxy, Mass Effect: Revelation, Mass Effect: Ascension, Mass Effect: Retribution, and Mass Effect: Redemption. You can't just say "We need to split the stuff along the lines of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2" because that viewpoint completely overlooks the one other game (with another planned), the three books, and the one comic series. You can't overlook 5 of the 7 works in the franchise if you're talking about a reorganization of this nature. It just doesn't make any sense. SpartHawg948 06:59, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
Multiple different contributors were splitting various different pages, in various different ways so it seemed sensible to have a central discussion for general issues, in the expectation that individual page issues would be discussed as usual on talk pages. Note that it is not expected that all (or, indeed, any) of the tagged pages will end up being split. For my part, the less splitting, the less work…. (Also it is by no means necessary to contemplate a seven way split: there is room for middle ground.) --DRY 07:38, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
I may have been a little melodramatic with the seven pages thing, but the point stands (and I still believe the guy who first proposed it didn't get this) that it won't be as simple as just splitting everything along the lines of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, as there are, as I've mentioned, 5 other games/books/comics in the franchise, with at least one more on the way. So at least a 4-way split seems like the bare minimum required (one for each of the current games, cram the 3 books and the comics into one, and we'd need to up it to 5 when ME3 hit). The ME/ME2 way this issue is being framed in is a total oversimplification. SpartHawg948 07:50, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
FWIW my personal opinion is much like yours and Tullis', I think: most (or all) of the splits are unnecessary and possibly undesirable. By adding the split tag, I actually only hope to forestall unilateral action along the lines of Polexian's — I spent about an hour unwinding that ill-advised and badly implemented split — there's an hour of my life I'll never get back…. --DRY 15:42, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
This page includes the books (Revelation, ascension, etc.) also. If we split the page, where will those go? --Spoo12 00:48, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Masks Edit

This is a stupid, minor request, but in Mass Effect 2, each of the characters will wear a masks in certain environments. I'm wondering if we can get a screenshot of them? I know it's really minor, but. Characters like Zaeed, Thane, and Mordin have some pretty neat masks and it wouldn't hurt to get a screenshot of them. CloudT 21:53, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

That'd really be more appropriate for their individual character pages, as opposed to this page. After all, on this page, you want to be able to see their faces. While it might be neat to have, this page wouldn't be the appropriate place for it. SpartHawg948 00:32, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
I know, but i'd have to put in a request in each of their individual pages, I figure right here is basically a catch-all place, unless there's another one i'm missing? CloudT 01:01, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
No, there's not another catch-all. I'd just rather not have people start posting pictures of all the squad members in masks here, which tends to be the result when someone asks for something on a specific page, especially without specifying where they'd rather have the new images. If you ask for pictures of masks here and don't say "this is something I'd like to see on the individual pages, not here", people tend to put the pictures of the masks here, as it's where you asked for them. SpartHawg948 01:05, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
Well, excuse me for expecting people to be smarter about it, then. :/ CloudT 04:16, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
No worries. It's just that expectations like that do tend to get dashed. I'm just trying to avoid headaches in the future by pointing this out now. As always, being specific helps, especially in cases like this. SpartHawg948 05:23, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
The right place for proposals or suggestions regarding images is in the Screenshots talk page. --silverstrike 01:08, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. CloudT 04:16, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Citadel Council as allies?Edit

Shouldn't the Citadel Council be added to the "Allies" section of Mass Effect (1)? 23:55, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

They really aren't on the same level as Joker, or even Anderson or Udina. And, given that you can either have a good relationship with them, work with them, talk to them, and whatnot, or you can have a hostile relationship with them, refuse to speak to them, blow them off at every chance, and get them killed, I don't really see them as 'allies'. SpartHawg948 23:57, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Mass Effect Galaxy Edit

I was browsing this page, and it got me thinking. Shouldn't the Mass Effect Galaxy section be organized in a manner similar to the Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 sections? I can see why the books wouldn't be organized like that, as there is no player character, and thus no allies or enemies, plus we have pictures of very few book characters. We do, however, have all of these things for Galaxy, so why not change the way the section is organized? Arbington 19:17, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Do it similar to ME and ME2? Who would be in the Squad Members section? :P My thinking, (and I could be way off base here) is that there are really only three 'central' characters to the entire game. There's the PC (Jacob) - who if we're doing this ME/ME2 style will not be pictured, but I don't see why we really couldn't, as there's no 'canon-less veil of secrecy' around him. Then there's Miranda, who would be an Ally. Then Jath'Amon, who would be an adversary. None of the other characters appears for more than one mission, or for more than a few minutes, so it seems to me like none of the others would fit the bill for inclusion, at least not if we're modeling it off of ME/ME2. See, the thing with the Galaxy section is that there are so few characters, that even more peripheral characters were added just to fill it out. So it's either follow the same standards and lose most of the names, change the standards, with the (I'll admit, somewhat negligible) risk that people will then start trying to add any Tom, Dirk, or Morlan to the ME or ME2 sections, or leave it as is. At least, that's my thinking on the matter. SpartHawg948 19:24, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
You have some good points there, but I was thinking that since the game doesn't have any side missions or anything of that sort to my knowledge, just about every character that's worthy of being in the current list is pretty much a viable character for the rearrangement of the section. This is by no means some perfect reccomendation for some world-changing new policy that'll take the wiki by storm, and this doesn't even have to be done at all, I just thought we might have the proper numbers and types of characters to pull this off. Arbington 19:31, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I suppose that if everyone's a major character, that would yield 5 allies and 3 adversaries. And Jacob. I can't really say there's enough compelling reason not to for me to bring my full rhetorical might to bear against it. If you want to whip something up, go for it. SpartHawg948 19:38, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
Not my area of expertise, but I'll sure try! Arbington 19:40, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
Oh. Er, someone beat me to the punch. Was that you, SpartHawg, or someone else? Arbington 19:42, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Beat you to it, Arby. All that's left is getting nicer, square images. -- Commdor (Talk) 19:43, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Well, nicer, square images, and fixing the other problem I have with it. Which is a big one, IMO at least. Jacob Taylor isn't an ally of the PC. Jacob Taylor IS the PC. So, we either need a new, Jacob-only category that's only for MEG, not ME/ME2, or Jacob needs to get axed. SpartHawg948 19:45, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
  • The two other problems I have with it. Spoke too soon. Shouldn't it be in between ME and ME2? That's where it falls chronologically and all that. SpartHawg948 19:47, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
Come to think of it, we'd also have to rearrange the novels and the spoiler tags, and add more spoiler tags as well. Arbington 19:50, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
I don't see why we'd need to move them. It makes sense to me to have the games (with their nice pretty pictures) up top and the books and comics (with their boring old text) down on the bottom. I just figured that, since the games had been arranged chronologically before, we should keep that particular trend going. SpartHawg948 19:52, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
Won't someone think of the poor souls with small monitors?? 5 images across don't fit in a 1024x768 resolution :( Other than that though (plus the other suggestions already mentioned), I think it could look great. -- Dammej (talk) 19:57, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Why don't we have a link to Commander Shepard here as well? We could easily use an N7 logo in place of a portrait image and have that link alone under "Protagonist"; then we could have Jacob in his own group too under the Galaxy section.
As for the arrangement, I think the main trilogy should be set apart from the rest of the media, not organize thw whole thing chronologically or in order of release. I set it up so we have the trilogy first, then other games, then books, then comics. -- Commdor (Talk) 19:55, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
Scratch that idea about Shepard, I don't have time to work on it. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:10, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
When we have a trilogy, that would make sense. We don't, though. Not yet. Right now we have three games. I figured it'd be nice since Jacob and Miranda first appeared in Galaxy, with that being their big intro to the franchise, to place it before their second appearance. Again, I'm all for 'trilogy first' when there is a trilogy, but right now I'm pretty adamant about putting the games in chronological order. SpartHawg948 20:13, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
I support the whole chronological order idea. But what about the spoiler tags? I assume we now need one for Galaxy, but what about the books and comics? Also, I kind of like Commdor's idea for the Shepard and Jacob pics, but if we're going to do something like that, why not just put Shep in the squad section? I'm pretty sure he could be considered a member of his own squad. Arbington 20:18, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
If we do that, I think we need to put them in a separate 'Player Character' or 'Protagonist' (or something along those lines) category. Because Jacob doesn't fall into any of the current ones in MEG. He's not a member of his squad, since he has no squad, and he most definitely is not an ally of himself. As for spoiler tags, sure, why not? The only argument I could see against them is if the names listed were all readily available without reading into it, i.e. they were all in the back cover summary or whatnot. SpartHawg948 20:21, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
The thing I don't like about the Player Character section proposal is that there would be only one character in the section for every game but ME2. I would have rather thought of a way to include Jacob in the Allies section, but it wouldn't really be accurate, and inaccurate info is the last thing we want on this wiki. Is that our only option, or does anyone have any other ideas? Arbington 20:32, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
What other way could there be? Jacob clearly isn't his own ally. And he even more clearly isn't his own adversary. And were we to put him as a squad mate, with the same justification used to suggest putting Shep as a squad mate, there would still be a category with just one person in it. It seems to me that we really only have two choices, bearing in mind that whatever decision is reached has to work for all, not just some, of the games. We can either make a 'Protagonist' (or whatever) section with the understanding that there will only be one person per game in three of the four games (I say three of the four because if Shep dies at the end of ME2, there will presumably be a new PC in ME3, leaving open the possibility of 2 PCs for ME3), or we continue to exclude Shepard from this page, and exclude Jacob from the MEG section as well. SpartHawg948 20:56, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
I see that it's the only option, I was just waiting to see if anyone else saw something I didn't. I guess we should just go with the Player Character section? Also, on an unrelated note, you think that there will be a new PC in ME3? I thought that, in one of the few events we know are canon, Shepard is supposed to survive the Suicide Mission. After all, a save where Shep died can't be transfered to the next game. Arbington 21:10, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
But do we know it's canon? I don't think that's the case. After all, Casey Hudson came out pretty definitively a while back and said that 'dead is dead' and that if Shepard dies at the end of ME2, then that's it. SpartHawg948 21:13, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
  • Actually, upon a little further review, you may be right. I was operating under some of the older statements, but it was later elaborated that, as you say, if Shep dies, the save game can't be transferred, though I really don't see why not. I mean, the game still ends normally and all that if Shep dies. Darnit, this was Joker's big chance, too! SpartHawg948 21:15, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
I do, however, hope that there are some levels where you play as others, like the level in ME2 where you played as Joker. I just think that Shep will still be the main character. Arbington 21:27, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

I went ahead and added in "Protagonist" sections to see what they'd look like. "Player Character" would work in the headings too, but it didn't cross my mind until now. -- Commdor (Talk) 02:15, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. We would have to add Joker to the ME2 "Player Character" section though. Which do you prefer? Arbington 02:23, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
Ehhh, "Protagonist" then. Nothing against Joker, but the first thing to come to mind when you think of "Star of Mass Effect games" ain't him. -- Commdor (Talk) 02:52, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
Wow. I just want to say, right quick, that I just got back from my outing, and this page looks GREAT. Seriously, good work! Love the Shep N7 images, the protagonist sections look nice, and the MEG pics look great. I still think that, until the trilogy is actually a trilogy, MEG should go between ME and ME2, but it does look very nice as is. SpartHawg948 08:29, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Saren as Squad Member in Mass Effect 3? Edit

So i herd Saren are gon be comin back as squad member in ME3... thoughts? i'm pumped, can't wait to see the buster sword in action. 22:42, August 18, 2010 (UTC)I<3Sovereign

Well, seeing as Saren is dead and his corpse has been pretty well destroyed, I'm skeptical, to say the least. SpartHawg948 22:43, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, that's what makes it such a great twist.
What, that someone gathered up the little tiny ashes and somehow turned them back into a living, breathing turian? Right... because that sounds plausible. Who else is going to be in the squad then? Jesus, ManBearPig, and Xenu? SpartHawg948 22:47, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Manbearpig... half man, half bear, and half pig. All deadly.
There's also BioWare saying eons ago that Saren would stay dead because they didn't want to take away from the player's sense of accomplishment in beating him in ME. -- Commdor (Talk) 23:08, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Yes I wouldn't like to see Saren back in ME3. He's dead and that's the end of it. Personally I think that bringing back a nemesis form an older installment, or earlier in the game/movie/episode/etc, is something that is used far too often. Lancer1289 23:42, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Well get used to it.
Get used to what? The fact that Saren is dead, dust, and never coming back? Oh, I've been used to that since November of 2007. SpartHawg948 00:17, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
I find that hard to believe.
I think I<3 Sovereign just got his facts a little bit wrong. Saren will not be a squad member in ME3 but he WILL be appearing in the game. I heard that he's simply going to appear in the first 15 minutes as a reanimated 1/3 reaper 1/3 turian 1/3 volus cyborg. It's not essential to the plot but he will be the boss of the first mission, presumably the prologue.
I don't know why you'd find it hard to believe. It's pretty common knowledge, seeing as how at the end of the first game, you fight and kill Saren, then fight and kill his reanimated corpse, which then turns to ash. But hey, if you can't believe it, that's your issue, not mine. :) SpartHawg948 00:25, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Maybe you fought and killed Saren at the end of the first game. As I understand it, there are multiple endings.
In each and every one of the multiple endings, though, Saren ends up dead and turned into a pile of ashes. The multiple endings involve whether the Citadel Council lives or dies, not what happens to Saren. SpartHawg948 00:28, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
But isn't Saren part of the Council?
Nope. He's a former Spectre who was stripped of his position by the Council. SpartHawg948 00:30, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict X3)There isn't multiple endings for the Saren encounter, multiple endings for the Council and other things, but not with Saren. You fight and kill Saren, then his corpse, then end of story. He is the final boss and considering he is turned to ash, we won't be seeing him again. Lancer1289 00:31, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
On Saren being a member of the Council, Shepard exposed Saren as a trator to the Council and he was stripped of his position as a Spectre. He was never on the Council, he just worked for them, and then Sovereign and the Reapers. Lancer1289 00:33, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Wait, i'm confused. I'm almost positive that Saren was the name of Sovereign's reaper-ship.
Nope. It's the other way around. SpartHawg948 00:36, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah. Saren was the name of Shephard's ship.
Swing and a miss. Keep trying. SpartHawg948 00:38, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict x4)No, Sovereign was a Reaper, like Harbinger. Saren was a turian. From this I have to say that you have never played ME, or a while ago. The SSV Normandy was the name of Shepard's ship. Lancer1289 00:41, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

SING YOUR POSTS and no saren was the main bad guy you fight at the end, but seeing as your so confused I take either you never played ME or never finished it.OUTLegionwrex 00:39, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

How do I sing my posts? Is there a button I can hit to insert a musical note icon? Or should I just use caps lock to simulate singing?

New guy here. I just want to clarify something. While Saren was killed and is not the ship, it has been shown possible that a mass effect drive could reanimate the ashes and convert Saren into a man of dust, thus making him practically invincible to small arms fire. I believe that there is a high possibility that ME3 will utilize this part of the game.

It tell you how at the top of the page.Legionwrex 00:41, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it's been shown possible in fan-fiction land. Of course, if it's really been shown, you should have no problem providing evidence, right? SpartHawg948 00:43, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict x2)Where does this information come up, or for that matter, where is it from? Becuase I have never seen it. Saren is dead and there is no way he is coming back Lancer1289 00:46, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Does anybody sign there postsLegionwrex 00:43, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Chill out guys just remember one thing; this game was produced by MICROSOFT. And we all know what they are like. ME will turn out to be the next Windows Vista. That's why I play Mac.

(edit conflict x2)And since when does the publisher matter? The game was developed by BioWare and published by Microsoft, so how does that play into anything? Lancer1289 00:49, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

This guy is just screwing with us maybe we should just forget about itLegionwrex 00:46, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

How dare you screw with my coment im reporting you bye bye

Hahaha as soon as I read buster sword I knew this had to be a highly confused/problematic person xD

I read in a reliable gaming magazine with a reliable inside source that Bart Simpson is also going to be squad member. Saren? Really? Get real. And lost. Tanooki1432 01:31, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he meant Nihlus? I mean two turian spectre's that you met during the eden prime mission could get really confused for someone who's never even played the game plus a fatal shot in the back must be easier to cure compared to gettin turned to dust or gettin thrown into space and possible rentry into the atmosphere -nonmember

Considering he is also dead, I would have to say no. Lancer1289 17:38, April 17, 2011 (UTC)
I'm hoping for Herobrine, or possibly the ghost of Sovereign possessing the body of Barney the Purple Dinosaur. --Lucius Voltaic 18:13, April 17, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah I'm not and that really just sounded bad. Lancer1289 18:15, April 17, 2011 (UTC)
What? I was just making a joke about other unlikely squad members. No need to get worked up. --Lucius Voltaic 19:50, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

I'm laughing so hard right now.--BriNg iN DeR FLAmeS?! 22:08, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

Liara as an ally in ME2? Edit

With the upcoming DLC coming out soon (not soon enough though), I just thought I should ask this. Should we list Liara as an ally in ME2? I mean it's obvious that she's getting a far greater role in the game after the 'Lair of the Shadow Broker' DLC; I mean a FAR GREATER role. So... maybe it's time to put her under allies? Me theorising here, but I personally think that it's very possible that she'll get more screentime than all of the other allies COMBINED (maybe even more than some squad members). I'm just putting it out there for you to think about. 11:17, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

For now, I'd say we should hold off until Tuesday for this. Lancer1289 12:25, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Liara as a Squadmate? Edit

Comic images Edit

Can the comic character images be squared off to match the rest of the article images? -- Commdor (Talk) 16:16, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

I will do it now. SoulRipper 19:19, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
DONE. SoulRipper 20:01, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. Nice job. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:06, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Redemption Adversaries Edit

Should be added the Collector General as an adversarie? SoulRipper 20:37, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Since he was manipulating the situation, I'd say that the General qualifies. Lancer1289 20:41, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Mass Effect 2 Adversaries Edit

I just noticed a few characters that appear as adversaries in the Mass Effect 2 section (Donovan Hock, The Shadow Broker, and Tela Vasir) - why exactly are they listed on this page? They appear in only one mission and they have nothing to do with the story. --silverstrike 14:47, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Don't know about Hock or Vasir, but I'd argue for including the SB. He has an impact across two games and a comic series, for one thing. And the LotSB DLC is supposed to be a continuation of the ME general storyline, post-ME2 suicide mission. The SB is a powerful entity that deserves some recognition. -- Commdor (Talk) 15:54, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
After catching up from when I went to bed, I found that Spart and JakePT talked this out on JakePT's talk page. I'd have to say that I'm neutral on Hock, but I can see Vasir and the Shadow Broker. Vasir less than the SB, so if she goes, I could see why. The main issue is where do we stop, and I feel that this is a much better place for this discussion than JakePT's talk page. Lancer1289 15:59, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Why was the discussion moved? I just noticed the forum discussion that mention this addition - but Its way too long for me to start reading the whole thing at the moment, I'll take a look at JakePT talk page in a little while. From my point of view, if were going to add any character that might have an impact on the whole story, or based on "screen time" they receive, then the list will be too long to be effective.
Although it is mentioned that the "Lair of the Shadow Broker" DLC (and DLC's that will follow) serve as a link between ME2 and ME3, it is not mentioned that the Shadow Broker himself has anything to do with it - it could be Liara's new position, or the mention on the new Yahg race (I hope I spelled it correctly), or anything else. Although the Shadow Broker is mentioned in both games, novel(s), and comic, he has no real impact on the story. --silverstrike 16:13, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
From me catching up, let me hopefully try to explain what happened, or what happened based on time stamps. The squadmates section is being overhauled, which is what the Forum discussion is about, not the Adversaries section. JakePT added the three new ones to the list and then Spart brought it up on JakePT's talk page, so the discussion was never moved, it just started there. I proposed moving it here because it is more relevant here than on JakePT's talk page. Lancer1289 16:23, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Donovan Hock really shouldn't be on the adversaries list, he doesn't even oppose Shepard directly and has no effect on the storyline. I also think Tela Vasir should be removed as she's really just another boss with slight impact on the story. If we start putting characters like Tela Vasir under adversaries someone will start adding characters like Wasea and Harkin. --T34l

I've got a semi-nebulous idea of tiers of antagonists which I go by:

  • Primary Antagonists (antagonists of vital importance to the central trilogy story arc: Saren, Sovereign, Harbinger)
  • Secondary (antagonists of arguably lesser importance to the central trilogy story arc, but still feature prominently in the games/universe: Thorian, Matriarch Benezia, Collector General, Shadow Broker)
  • Tertiary (minor named antagonists with dialogue interaction that can be fought: Lord Darius, Balak, Warden Kuril, Gatatog Uvenk, Captain Enyala, Captain Wasea, Donovan Hock, Tela Vasir, etc.)
  • Quaternary (all other enemies).

This isn't a guideline or anything I'd like to establish, I just want to illustrate my way of thinking. If it were completely up to me, I'd include only Primary and Secondary antagonists on this page.
To that end, I formally propose removing Hock and Vasir from the page. As shown above, I believe they simply aren't on the same level of significance as the other antagonists we have here, and do not deserve inclusion. -- Commdor (Talk) 19:56, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

I personally think that it will clutter the page and show way too many characters (most of them are irrelevant).
Regarding the Shadow Broker, how do we even know that he has any impact on the story (which this page suppose to show) - apart from mentioning him in ME and Redemption, he has no weight on the plot and we don't know how if the story in the Lair of the Shadow Broker effect the future novels, comics, film(s), or Mass Effect 3 (what means that it's speculation. --silverstrike 21:34, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
I think you misread my post. I said only what I consider Primary and Secondary antagonists (of which there are only seven total at present, and all seven are already on the page) would go on this page. All others would be excluded. And I'm not trying to reorganize the page into those tiers, the tiers are a completely subjective thing I'm using to illustrate who I consider important, and who I don't.
As for the Shadow Broker, I think we'd be remiss not to have him on here. He may not figure directly into the Reaper story arc, but he did a lot of things that make him a very significant villain. He tried to sell Shepard's body to the Collectors, he made himself Liara's archenemy, he's been manipulating galactic affairs for decades for his own gain. In fact, I'd say the Broker is at least as relevant as the Thorian, who is on this page but has a considerably smaller role in the media. -- Commdor (Talk) 21:53, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
Just throwing my two cents here, but Commdor's suggestion is a good one. I would also support removing Hock and Vasir, when put to next to the others, their impact is somewhat minor. However I'd have to agree that the Shadow Broker is worthy of mention. Lancer1289 22:10, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
Commdor has a good point, although the broker role as not as major to effect the plot, he is responsible for much of the background - I retract my earlier post - we should keep him.
I also support the removal of Hock and Vasir, they're too insignificant to be included here. --silverstrike 22:18, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
Well I'll remove them then and direct people here for further disuccsion if necessary. Lancer1289 22:20, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm... I suppose I should have commented here sooner. While I'm cool with Hock being removed, I don't really see why Tela Vasir was also removed. To paraphrase a comment made by Silverstrike, while Vasir may not have as major an effect to the plot, she is responsible for a fair bit of background. After all, quite a bit of the LOTSB plot is based around Vasir and her actions. She certainly has much more impact than the other so-called tertiary enemies. SpartHawg948 22:26, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Vasir has a major impact on LOTSB, but what impact does she have on the rest of the plot, in a way she is just like any other boss in the game (maybe with a bit more dialog lines, and presence). --silverstrike 22:30, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

And much more plot impact and back-story than any of those others. Let me put it to you this way: What impact to the plot of Mass Effect 2 does the Shadow Broker have, outside of LOTSB? What differentiates him from Vasir? Why is he cool to stay, but Vasir isn't? The way I see it, if Vasir goes, SB needs to go, as he has no impact, as you say, to the rest of the plot. SpartHawg948 22:34, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Shadow Broker has a major background story on the Mass Effect series as a whole, and the events that leads to ME2. Other than that he has no real importance and have no other impact on the story - but then again, the Thorian have the same non-existent importance in ME (apart from giving Shepard the cipher) and he's still listed. Vasir is just an associate of the broker and help him stop Liara/Shepard - but then again, every other boss/sub-boss in the game is trying to do the same thing (should we list them all?)
My personal opinion: we either remove all of them (including the thorian), or leave only those that have plot/background importance. --silverstrike 22:50, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

But that's the thing: The Shadow Broker may have some background role in the series as a whole, which is IMO debatable, but this is pretty much entirely in the first game and comics. He has little to no impact on ME2 outside of LOTSB. The Thorian has much more of an impact to ME than the SB has to ME2. And after all, the SB isn't listed as a 'franchise' adversary, he's a 'ME2' adversary. SpartHawg948 22:53, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Then let's remove them all. I think that this page should only include the relevant character that shape the story. --silverstrike 23:01, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

So... what? Them all as in...? The Thorian, the SB, Black Eye, and Nazario? That's what I'm thinking. SpartHawg948 23:07, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

I'll say it a different way: keep only those individuals who have any impact on the plot. Squad members, adversaries, and allies should have relevant impact on the story or the gameplay. I also think that we should remove the temporary squad members - but I won't insist on that. --silverstrike 23:15, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I wouldn't. After all, the vote was 6-3 in favor of including them. I'm not going to see a community consensus overturned so flippantly. But again, you really need some more specifics here: "Any impact on the plot" is extremely subjective. After all, even Donovan Hock has impact on the plot. SpartHawg948 23:18, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe we have different definition of "impact". Donovan Hock impact only one mission that deals with Kasumi's loyalty - He has nothing to do with the reapers, collectors, or any other aspect of the story - he even says it himself that he has nothing against Shepard. We should consider what the character gives to the story, how it shape the game, etc. Including a character because at one point you might fight him/her is irrelevant. If we go by that standard, we need to include any boss/sub-boss that Shepard might fight. --silverstrike 23:27, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for dropping out, but after thinking on it, maybe Vasir should go back in. Hock however should stay out because he doens't have as much of an impact as Vasir. Lancer1289 23:31, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
What impact does Vasir has? You meet her, try to work with her to find Liara, find out that she manipulated you, and then chase and kill her. Nothing of which as anything to do with Cerberus, the Illusive Man, the reapers, or the collectors - so where is the impact? --silverstrike 23:40, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I also think we need to remember that these sections are divided up by game. For example, if someone is to be listed as an adversary for Mass Effect 2, it needs to be because they are an adversary that has a major impact on Mass Effect 2. Not because they are a major figure elsewhere in the series or franchise who just happens to have impact on one mission in Mass Effect 2. I think you can tell who I'm referring to here... SpartHawg948 23:32, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

DLC Companions ME2 Edit

Can someone please elaborate on what Mass Effect 2 characters require DLC and who don't? It's a bit confusing. Thanks. -- 00:58, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Zaeed Massani, Kasumi Goto, and Liara T'Soni are the companions in ME2 who require a DLC. SpartHawg948 05:48, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
Ah, thanks. I understand Liara is only temporary, though. And as an off note, is there a blog/update somewhere where The developers announce DLCs? Or are they done making them? -- 19:48, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
Pretty sure they just do it on the official site. I'm about 99% sure though, based on statements they made about the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, that there will be more DLCs. SpartHawg948 19:50, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Evolution Character Images Edit

Hi. I just noticed the section for Mass Effect: Evolution has no images for the characters. A few images of these characters are already on the wiki, on the characters' pages, but a few would have to be searched for and uploaded. Should the images be added, or is there a reason there are none? Arbington 04:50, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Probably because of three reasons that I can see.
  1. Because images need to be resized and formatted for this article.
  2. Because no one has gotten around to it yet.
  3. And because Evolution isn't complete yet.
Again those are three reasons I can see, with the first two being the big ones. I'm sure someone will get around to it eventually, it will just take some time. If you want to start it however, you won't hear any arguments from me, or anyone else that I can think of. I'm still not good at image formatting yet so I can't be of much help unfortunately. Lancer1289 05:11, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
I'm not that great at image formatting either, really. That's why I mentioned it on the talk page, instead of simply doing it myself. Also, I don't have Evolution, I've just been reading the summaries here on the wiki. But, as you said, I'm sure somebody will get around to it. Arbington 05:29, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
Ah well tune in on Wednesday about 12:30 CST for the summary of issue #3. I seem to get them before anyone else, again thank you Graham Cracker Comics, so I usually type them up while I'm eating lunch. I wrote the last two, and I predict I'll be writing the remainder as well. And editing the Illusve Man's page after the conclusion of Issue #4. Lancer1289 05:35, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Mass Effect Character Mugs RevampEdit

Hi. First off, I would just apologize for jumping the gun with changing some of the mugs - I'm not used to uploading with much (if any) discussion so please just hear me out. I find the mugs we have for ME1's characters are a bit lacking - they don't follow a pattern and the quality is subpar (I know that they are only a certain size on this page but quality is still important) so I went through I made a series of images as potential replacements. Liara 1, Liara 2, Saren 1, Saren 2, Saren 3, Saren 4, Tali 1, Tali 2, Kaidan, Wrex. Liara, Tali and Saren are obviously the ones I feel should be changed the most. Kaidan and Wrex are fine though I took these and liked them as well. Thoughts? --Redemption 04:31, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

This isn't something for a talk page. It's a project, which should be proposed in the Projects Forum. SpartHawg948 04:34, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
Ah. My bad. Figured since it only affects one page it'd be here. Me and my Wookieepedia mind-set. Thank you. --Redemption 04:42, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
No worries. This is one of those things where it varies from place to place. If the change had been less sweeping, it may have worked here, but something of this nature would likely lead to a lot of discussion and back-and-forth, so the project forum is really the better venue, lest this discussion come to dominate the entire Characters talk page. SpartHawg948 05:30, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

ME3 pics Edit

Shouldn't we change the picture of the ME3 squad mate (or at least Ashley, Kaidan, and Garrus) to concept art and released screen shots from ME3?

No, as it is too early to do so and those concept shots are not of the best quality and resolution (a la Ashley's pic in the Game Informer magazine, which is always too grainy to be acceptable when someone uploads it). Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 23:52, April 23, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah that about describes it. We really don't have any good high res shots yet, and I'm sure we'll get them at some point. The images available are too grainy and too low res to be quality shots. It is better to wait and get a good picture, than put up a bad one that may give people the wrong impression. Lancer1289 02:38, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Well we should at least get ME2 pictures for Ashley and Kaidan cause thats closer to how they actualy look,cause that makes more sense than there ME pics.

The pictures that go on this page are specially formatted for this page, and we don't have any ME2 pics that are formatted for this page. Could we change them, perhaps, but honestly what would it accomplish in the long run. They don't look that much different from ME to ME2, and untimely they will get replaced by ME3 pics once we get them. That's just a little redundant isn't it? They would be temporary at best and we don't need images that will honestly just be used for just a couple of months at most. Again that just seems very redundant. Lancer1289 02:56, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Playable Characters Edit

Shouldn't it be noted on the character page that Joker and a Mech are Playable. Probally make a Temporary Player Characters or add at least add joker to protaginast (cause he is so much more than an allie)

And in what sense of the word are they the protagonist?>Commander Shepard is the protagonist of the ME games, not Joker, and certainly not a mech, which is controlled by Shepard to begin with. Joker is an ally and proves it by saving the Normandy with EDI while Shepard is away. You could also claim that each of the squad members are protagonists of their own loyalty missions, but we don't just the protagonist based on the fact they are playable for several good reasons. Lancer1289 03:35, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah but it should at least be noted that he is playable.

And it is noted in the appropriate place, i.e. Joker's Page. This isn't the appropriate place to put that kind of content as it isn't relevant to this page or the information that is here. Lancer1289 03:41, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
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