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Trivia Edit

Commdor, why was a perfectly valid triva addition removed? SInce when has 'subjective' been a reason to undo trivia, especially in a case that is not subjective. As the trivia notes, the descriptions of the cipher and 'grok' are extremely similar and both are science fiction concept. That trivia is perfectly valid, and should not have been removed. JakePT 06:00, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

Similar, but in my opinion not close enough without direct dev confirmation that there is a link. The Cipher is more of an abstract construct, a singular defined entity, a noun. Stranger in a Strange Land's "grokking" is a process, a verb. To me, it's like saying a book = reading. I think comparing the two as a reference is subjective, just too much of a stretch to warrant mention as trivia. I won't oppose re-adding this if we can get solid confirmation from BioWare that the Cipher was based on/inspired by/a reference to "grok". -- Commdor (Talk) 06:18, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

Mass Effect: Genesis

There should be a mention of the Cipher/Shiala being removed from the lore, as per the interactive Mass Effect: Genesis comic which removes Feros from the story.

ME: Genesis does not remove the events of Feros or anything else from the lore, it is not a retelling of ME. Genesis was originally designed by BioWare to act as a brief intro to the series for PS3 players, who cannot access ME themselves and carry over ME's decisions into ME2. As such, Genesis only examines the most important decision points of ME. Feros was left out (as well as all of the side missions) because there's no big decision there, not because it is no longer part of the lore. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:36, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mass_Effect:_Genesis
"Notably, the mission on Feros is omitted entirely from the comic."
Would you prefer the word "omitted"? It is a retelling. Without the Cipher, Shepard would not have been able to assist Liara in determining how they knew to go to Ilos.
You're reading too much into it. Just because BioWare did not include a summary of the events on Feros in Genesis does not mean in any way that Feros is no longer part of ME lore. In fact, I'm pretty sure the ME2 assignment Illium: Medical Scans, which directly refers to Shepard's involvement on Feros, occurs even in games where Genesis was used. Genesis is not supposed to be a definitive, thorough summary of ME, it's only a tool for players to make ME's most important decisions without having to play ME. -- Commdor (Talk) 21:20, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
No, I'm really not "reading" into anything. Shiala isn't in the PS3 version of the game, and neither is Conrad.
But you're saying that just because Feros isn't in Genesis, it's no longer part of the ME universe for everyone who played ME and experienced it. This is a mistaken assumption. Anything that you can potentially do in ME and ME2 is part of the lore. If you choose not to do something, or cannot do something, then that event is only absent from the lore of that single playthrough of yours, not everyone else's.
As for Shiala and Conrad not appearing in the PS3 version of ME2, the same happens for 360 and PC ME players who don't spare Shiala on Feros or complete Conrad's assignment on the Citadel. Again, that only means that their related ME2 quests are absent in the universe of your playthrough, not everyone's. -- Commdor (Talk) 23:44, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Really? I've heard that both appear in the PS3 version. And even if they don't, then we have to default to the PC and Xbox 360 versions because of the import process being complete as the PS3 will never have Mass Effect, therefore some things in it are more problematic. I have to agree that mentioning that it is remove from lore flies in the face of canon. When issues like this come up, we have to side with the two versions that have the complete process and the complete story, and if that means we have to disregard things from the PS3 version that run counter to the PC and Xbox 360 versions, then so be it. The fact remains however that the Cipher is not removed from the lore, it is just not mentioned in Genesis for whatever reason. Genesis doesn't even come close to retelling Mass Effect, nor will it ever.
Either way, I also have to agree, you are reading way to much into it. You cannot retell a game that takes on average over 20 hours to play, and that's just doing the main story, not any side assignments. Mass Effect is a massive game and trying to put everything into a 15 minute summary just doens't work. Lancer1289 23:56, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
All these arguments are metagaming, and easily dismissed. The fact is they're not there, and Feros is removed. I'd love to see some evidence of Shiala, Conrad, Feros and the cipher in the PS3. (Doesn't Tali's romance have a line about what Shepard did on Feros? Doesn't Morinth make a mention of the cipher?) Regardless, what this means is in ME3 for PS3 owners, Shiala and Conrad won't be there, as will any relevance to Feros. Unless they have, yet again, another retcon or glitch.
How is this metagaming or retcon for that matter? Please explain that I'm serious. You aren't using external factors, you aren't modding the game, you aren't using out-of-game resources, or anything else that I can think of, or that's listed in the Wikipedia article on it. I should also mention that they cannot be easily dismissed, rather it is your argument that can be because it files in the face of canon. This isn't retcon or a glitch, it's fact. The cipher is and will always be part of the Mass Effect Universe and just because it isn't in one version of the game, doesn't instantly mean that it is retconed away. See what I said about the canon level of games above due to what happened with ME2. In situations where there is something omitted from the PS3 version, we have to side with the more accurate games, which are for the Xbox 360 and PC because they both had Mass Effect, they both have the import from Mass Effect, and they both will have the full import process into Mass Effect 3. You cannot dismiss anything and nor can we remove this article or mention that this is removed from the lore because that isn't what happened. Genesis is not a retelling of Mass Effect, nor could it have any hope of being that. Again expalin how you can completely retell a 20+ hour game in fifteen minutes? Fact, you can't and have no possible way of doing that. Can you completely retell a three hour movie in two minutes and fifteen seconds and get every detail? There is no possible way you can do that. The fact remains that Genesis is not a complete retelling of Mass Effect, nor will it ever be, and because of that, the information here isn't retconed, removed, or no longer part of the lore, it is most definitely part of the lore, most definitely part of the universe, and very important to the people who can play Mass Effect. Unless I imagined this when I played through it about two weeks ago.
Your argument here has absolutely no basis in fact and you honestly don't have a leg to stand on for this argument. I again say you are reading WAY too much into this and you need to take a step back, reanalyze the situation, and think about it for a minute. If something doesn’t agree with you, or you can't explain it, then you outright dismiss it. You dismiss our arguments without even trying to refute them, mainly because I don't think you can. You haven't even remotely tried to refute any argument we've had and I'd like to see you try. I'll bring some out, and in addition to trying to refute those, answer every question I've layed out in my comment, and I'll list those again as well.
  1. "Genesis only examines the most important decision points of ME" (attempt to refute)
  2. "Genesis is not supposed to be a definitive, thorough summary of ME, it's only a tool for players to make ME's most important decisions without having to play ME" (attempt to refute)
  3. "But you're saying that just because Feros isn't in Genesis, it's no longer part of the ME universe for everyone who played ME and experienced it" (attempt to refute)
  4. "Anything that you can potentially do in ME and ME2 is part of the lore" (attempt to refute)
  5. "If you choose not to do something, or cannot do something, then that event is only absent from the lore of that single playthrough of yours, not everyone else's" (attempt to refute)
  6. "Again, that only means that their related ME2 quests are absent in the universe of your playthrough, not everyone's" (attempt to refute)
  7. "I have to agree that mentioning that it is remove from lore flies in the face of canon" (attempt to refute)
  8. "When issues like this come up, we have to side with the two versions that have the complete process and the complete story, and if that means we have to disregard things from the PS3 version that run counter to the PC and Xbox 360 versions, then so be it" (attempt to refute)
  9. "The fact remains however that the Cipher is not removed from the lore, it is just not mentioned in Genesis for whatever reason. Genesis doesn't even come close to retelling Mass Effect, nor will it ever" (attempt to refute)
  10. "Mass Effect is a massive game and trying to put everything into a 15 minute summary just doesn’t work" (attempt to refute)
  11. "Again expalin how you can completely retell a 20+ hour game in fifteen minutes?" (answer)
  12. "Can you completely retell a three hour movie in two minutes and fifteen seconds and get every detail?" (answer)
I, again highly doubt that you will be able to refute anything above because you can't. The fact remians that since the PS3 version doesn't have an import from Mass Effect, only a very brief summary which doesn’t touch on every single detail of Mass Effect. There is no way that we can say that the Cipher doesn't exist, nor ever existed, we can't say that Conrad Verner isn't part of the universe anymore (if he really doesn’t appear), and the same goes for Shiala (if she really doesn’t appear). You again, don't have a leg to stand on here as you cannot dismiss or refute any argument because of not only the way Mass Effect is played and designed. The fact remains that the PS3 version doesn't have everything that the Xbox 360 and PC versions will, so when it comes to these situations, we cannot side with it because of the fact that an entire game is omitted from the series. This is as much part of the lore of Mass Effect as anything else from Mass Effect that doesn’t appear in the PS3 version. Lancer1289 13:59, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
Genesis omitted Feros. What's the result?
Shiala never existed. Shiala never gave Shepard the cipher. It simply wasn't in the narrative. To imply it is, is metagaming.
If ME3 is the same on XBOX 360, PC and PS3, as this article implies:
http://www.videogamer.com/ps3/mass_effect_3/news/mass_effect_3_on_ps3_and_xbox_360_are_indistinguishable.html
Shiala won't be in the PS3 version of ME3. Simple as that.
If she is, it'll be a retcon from the ME2 PS3 playthrough. Ditto with Conrad. If she isn't, than ME3 on PS3 will have obviously have missing content.
PS3 players (who obviously never played ME1), don't know about the cipher, Feros colonists, Thorian, etc.
If the cipher appears in the PS3 version of ME3, there will have to be some kind of backstory or exposition as to how Shepard got it, and the events of Feros, since, it never appeared in Genesis. This is all implying it has any relevance at all.
So that would be a no on answering any my questions and attempting to refute logical arguments then? I would also suggest reading that article a lot better because isn't saying what you think it is. The article states and I quote "So similar are the visuals of Mass Effect 3 on Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3, that BioWare marketing boss David Silverman believes gamers simply won't be able to spot any differences". "I don't think you'll see a difference between the Xbox version and the PS3 version. There's no drop in quality on either." That is talking about the graphics and visual quality, not the actual story of the game. The story of the game can differ from one playthrough to another. I know I have 36 of them and no two are the exact same. Close but not the same in a few cases. Just because Shiala isn't in one of my soldier playthroughs of Mass Effect 2, doesn’t mean she didn't exist because she did. Therefore, the article does nothing to help your position and only weakens it.
As one of the arguments you ignored above says "If you choose not to do something, or cannot do something, then that event is only absent from the lore of that single playthrough of yours, not everyone else's". That says everything right there. There are playthroughs of Mass Effect 2 that I have where Shiala doesn’t exist because I killed her. Or even a few that I stated in Mass Effect 2 where I used Genesis, or didn't, and she isn't present. Does that mean she never existed, no, it just means that she won't appear. It's not that she ever existed, she did that is an absolute fact, she didn't make it to 2185 for whatever reason. Just because something didn’t happen for you, doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen.
On Xbox and PC games, this means she was killed, and the same applies to the PS3 version. The fact remains that it isn't retcon, it isn't metagaming, it isn't anything because it existed, and there will be no changing that. You are arguing for us to ignore the experiences of Xbox and PC players to appease PS3 players, and that isn't how the system works. The fact of the matter is that the Xbox and PC versions will always be more correct than the PS3 versions because of the fact they have access to Mass Effect, they have a complete import process, and the PS3 version didn't have access to that. That doesn’t mean the events of Mass Effect, all the events, didn't happen, they just can't all be covered in a fifteen minute summary. There are hundreds of events that are covered in Mass Effect that aren't present in the PS3 version of ME2, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen, they are retconed, or that we should ignore them. They are all part of the Mass Effect universe. Just because something didn't happen in Genesis, doesn’t instantly mean that it is no longer canon, it didn't happen, or the entire event was retconed. Genesis is again a very brief summary to Mass Effect that doesn’t cover every event and only covers the major points of Mass Effect and the most critical decisions. But there are numerous decisions that aren’t covered, yet still happened, just not in your version/playthrough.
You again don't have any leg to stand on in this argument, and the fact that you ignored my request tells me something, that you are just here to argue and not attempt to try and refute the massive amount of evidence against you. You have ignored everything that was thrown at you because you say "if it didn't happen in the PS3 version, then it didn't happen and isn't canon". That is so blatantly incorrect, and the fact you can't see that, really disturbs me. I again ask you to answer my questions and attempt to refute my arguments above because ignoring them constantly tells me more than you think. Lancer1289 15:07, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
  • Addendum: I ask you to explain this sentence. "Shiala never existed. Shiala never gave Shepard the cipher. It simply wasn't in the narrative. To imply it is, is metagaming." What?! How does that even imply metagaming. There are so many issues with that statement that I don't think you can see them, nor will will see them any time soon. Shiala existed, gave Shepard the Cipher, and just because it wasn't covered in Genesis, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I should also point this out, if Shepard was never given the Cipher, whether or not it was covered in Genesis, then they would have never found Ilos, and would have never destroyed Sovereign. Vigil was also omitted from Genesis, but does that mean it never existed? No it doesn't. There are again a lot of events that aren't covered in Genesis and saying the didn't happen flies in the face of canon and ignores the simple fact that ME was never, nor will ever be, released on the PS3. Again, Genesis doesn't tell the entire story of Mass Effect, nor does it make an attempt to, so what you are saying is that we ignore events that happened in the Xbox and PC versions of Mass Effect because they weren't covered in a version that was released with a brief summary of the game? How does that make any sense? If say you didn't have access to say...oh...Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone, and the Chamber of Secrets only had a brief two page summary of what happened in the first book. Does that mean we can dismiss the first book and everything that isn't covered on those two pages? No it doesn't. I again tell you that you don't have a leg, or for that matter anything to stand on here. You want us to ignore canon and that isn't what we are going to do. Lancer1289 15:15, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
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