Talk: Morality Guide

Does this guide take into account the fact that your Paragon/Renegade scores are affected by your pre-service history and psych profile? --Tullis 13:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Whoops... forgot to put those in. I just added them. I've seen other people report different starting values, so it's possible that on difficulty levels other than Insanity you get more... but I kind of doubt it.--Karstedt 19:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Citadel: The Fan (3rd Encounter)

Just finished this quest and I had Charm 2, Intimidate 3 and both "extra" dialogue options were open to me. I don't know the exact requirement, but if it helps at all, that should narrow it down a bit.--VoodooV

Thanks. I'll check to see if it can go any lower.-Xenotroid

This assignment can be finished before doing a plot world, you just have to depart and return to the Citadel 3 times. (Maybe you have to do some assignments in between? not sure about that) I've moved it to the "Citadel: Assignments" section, and have adjusted the corresponding Paragon/Renegade subtotals as appropriate. Rtl42 06:12, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

So apparently, after playing through again, I've noticed that you *do* have to complete some assignments outside of the Citadel before Conrad will return. Incidentally, if you can trigger the conversations with your non-human squad members on the Normandy, it seems to be related to whether Conrad will show up again. (e.g. Wrex may say, "So we've got Saren on the run," even if you haven't started any of the Missions.) So after leaving the Citadel for the first time, do a couple of assignments (and check to see if you can trigger new conversations with your companions) and Conrad will likely show up for the second time. Say whatever you like to him, leave the Citadel, do another assignment or two, and come back, and he should be there for the 3rd encounter. Rtl42 15:19, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Wrex and the Genophage

According to the guide, you get "8 Paragon for saying “I’m in command.” " However, I'm fairly certain this is the Renegade response. Is this an error or a glitch? Or am I wrong about that being the Renegade response?Redwinggreen7 18:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, no. "I'm in command." is the Paragon response to be shocked at Ashley if she shoots Wrex without your say-so. --Felinoid 02:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC) [18:31, 13 July 2009 (UTC): initial time of comment before creating account]

Sorry About the Mess

I know I've been doing alot of editing on the morality guide page, and if this has confused anyone I'm sorry, however being that I have just started my 14th complete playthrough (not counting shortlived false starts or incompleted achievement unlock games) both the morality wheel and Max experience have become something of a personal obsession of mine. I personally have been able to get Both post-Eden-Prime morality awards from talking to Kaidan and Ashley regardless of gender, on every playthrough on the PC version, but I left those alone as I have never played the console version. Before I found the Mass Effect Wiki's Morality Guide, I had begun charting morality totals for myself using Microsoft Excel. Unfortunately as the morality bars give no acurate representation of your true morality totals, I've had to guess-timate as best I could. I discovered (thanks to Excel keeping a number count of all my encounter totals) that the wo/BDtS 75% benchmark was somewhere over 243 and somewhere under 249. I settled on 246 as this was the only number which provided a whole number for the 100% benchmark as well as 2 of the 3 Charm/Intimidate benchmarks. I am more confident however about the w/BDtS totals as I was able to confirm 253 was not enough to hit the 75% benchmark but 255 was. Given that of the 2 possible numbers only 255 presented whole numbers for ALL of the benchmarks (including the 80% and 90% quest unlocks) I'm fairly certain of those numbers. As for experience, I have observed that all xp given for kills quests and everyththing else, is some multiple of a base number (the amount given for codex entries, Decryption/Electronics hacks, etc.) and that this base number scales as you level, however I have not yet been able to determine the formula they use to scale this amount. Sonevar 11:49, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

There's a likely formula on the Experience Guide that might help you. --Tullis 12:24, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I do have a question: what does the guide mean when it refers to "Passive Abilities"? Do you mean improved merchant skills like Motivated Buyer? --Tullis 19:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Passive abilities meaning those listed in the Paragon and Renegade Sections like the 25% unlocks 10% First Aid Cooldown/10% Weapon Powers Cooldown etc. --Sonevar 05:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Both Morality Assignments?

Under the totals needed the guide mentions that after 90% Renegade/Paragon you will receive the other morality quest. This isn't mentioned anywhere on the main Morality page. I'm currently sitting at 100% paragon/0% renegade and only received Besieged Base. The same happened on my renegade character only the other way around. Am I missing something? Do you have to do something special to trigger the other quest to unlock?--Loscakes 17:17, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

All right, I don't know why that's been put in this guide, because that is either completely inaccurate or phrased wrongly. It's extremely difficult to get both quests at once anyway, because of the decisions you need to make to reach 80% Paragon / Renegade, and it certainly doesn't "unlock the second morality quest" if you reach 90% in the same sphere. --Tullis 17:57, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I thought as much. Thanks for clearing that up.--Loscakes 18:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

So, shouldn't the references to the second morality quest be edited out? I would do it myself but thought perhaps it had been left in for a reason. Llohr 03:01, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

Both quest are attainable, I have done it several times. But it takes careful planning... I actually ran through and found the most efficient way to accumulate the necessary points at one time.--Karstedt 18:57, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

Hostile Takeover Morality Points

According to this guide, you receive 2 renegade points for saying "You'd better stay clean." to Helena Blake after killing her two partners. However, though I hear the standard sound made when the journal is updated/money is received/morality points are awarded/etc. the game does not display any gain of morality points (or even say "journal" for that matter). I have run into this problem on a number of quests (on Xbox 360), and this time I decided to do everything I could to check it out, which involved fixing a sheet of paper to my television which ran directly along the edge of my morality bar, completing the quest, and checking to see if the morality bar has moved. I was unable to discern any change, but my method was not exactly high-tech. Can anyone confirm the morality reward here, or explain why I frequently do not see these rewards after quests? The latter seems to happen most often when the game loads immediately after a conversation. Llohr 03:01, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

I had the same thing happen to me over the weekend playing "Bring Down the Sky" when I chose the renegade option in my first conversation with Simon Atwell. Since it was for only two points, I have no idea if I got the points or not as there was no notification. I suppose it could just be a bug or glitch. Can anyone confirm? --VoodooV 04:16, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

As the original compiler of this guide, I personally verified each instance via use of the commands to set paragon and renegade points. When you set either to 0 it will display the current number you have as it subtracts all points to equal 0. I would do this before and after each section of dialog to see if/how much my point total had changed. It's been quite a while, but if memory serves, there were some instances where the message adding points was skipped. I have not kept abreast of any modifications that may have taken place after my original findings though.--Karstedt 18:53, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

Colors

I personally dislike the use of colors for the words Paragon and Renegade in the morality guide. Too many colors distract from ease of reading, and almost every line is going to have blue or red text. It's just jarring to my eyes. I preferred how it was before. —Seburo 07:40, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The lighter colors were easier to read while still pointing out the differences between the two. --ArmeniusLOD 21:38, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

The ME2 morality guide uses these colors and I though it made it easier to easily pick out the paragon and renegade options, that's why I changed it to match. I played around with the blue color because admittadly it's a little hard to see against the dark blue background, but couldn't find a better blue that wouldn't look too close to the color of links. You should bring this up in the ME2 morality guide and see if there is a lot of agreement. I think we should keep both guides using the same format, and the ME2 version will probably get a little more discussion right now.--Karstedt 12:57, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Help find missing points

I finished a paragon heavy play through with 629 paragon. Which meshes nicely with the totals i calculated and re-calculated, and re-calculated again. Then some more recalculating... you get the idea. This would be fine and dandy, except I know for a fact that I skipped at least 8 points during the game. Anyone know where they might be? I'm thinking perhaps a mission complete bonus from one from the plot worlds ala Feros.--Karstedt 13:06, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

I tried not doing the Feros assignments before dealing with the thorian and I didn't get the 8 paragon bonus, it might be your case.

OK I quadruple-checked this mission(Jeong charmed and all colonists saved, 2 with feros sidequests done and 2 without) and all of them do not receive the 8 paragon(did this on PC and verified with setparagon command.) Maybe someone can try other combinations e.g. not charming Jeong or saving colonists?

Character's Exact Paragon/Renegade Scores

Is there anyway to find the exact Paragon/Renegade scores of a save / character? I love this game and I even use this page as a check list for morality options to pick but I can't help but think manually adding them up to figure out the exact total of paragon and renegade scales would be tedious and I'm aiming for both morality quests. Ilovetelephones 10:17, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

No I don't think there is, sadly. There is a save-game utility for ME2, though. Bronzey 11:38, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Aye I've used it, well only to see what gets flagged, but it won't load ME1 saves, I do not want to end up calculating this stuff dammit, its the reason I ended up building a spreadsheet for ME2's updates and minerals. Ilovetelephones 11:40, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

If you're on PC, use setparagon/setrenegade 0(SAVE BEFORE USING) and it will show the change in paragon/renegade e.g. if you have 300 paragon it shows -300.

Rear Admiral Mikhailovich

Hi there! Has anyone plotted the Paragon/renegade scores for the conversation with the Rear Admiral. You get two Renegade by telling him to sling his hook and clear the gangway. If you allow him to inspect you get three waves of paragon/renegade choices. The first two choices give you no points - and you need more than 8 skill points to access either of the others. Will complete once I have boosted my points --Imatfaal 14:24, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

There is already a section for Citadel: Snap Inspection and all the scores are already listed and on the walkthough page it stated that you need nine Paragon/Renegade points to get access to the conversation options. However again the points that you get, which is the point of this guide, are already listed, and the walkthough says the same thing and it also gives the skill points necessary. Lancer1289 14:30, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Yep - thanks. searching in the wrong section (I didnt realise that rescuing Liara advanced the missions on the citadel, I hadnt completed Feros/Novaria and was thus looking in the first section of citadel assignments). I was really surprised when I mistakenly thought it was missing - great guide on a great wiki, congrats to all who have been involved.--82.29.123.170 16:53, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Freebies

What are the "freebies" referring to in the guide? Or am I forgetting something obvious from the game? -- AnotherRho 04:42, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

"Freebie" means you get the points by choosing the dialog, without having to 'choose' which of the two to take. For example, you get +2 Paragon for Saying "You're safe", and 9 Renegade for hitting Manuel. Both are 'freebies', because you did not have to choose between it and a corresponding 'other morality' choice. Basically you can get those points without having to 'give up' points on 'the other side'. Not terribly clear, but just reviewing the points possible in the Eden Prime mission should help it make sense.67.43.245.21 05:02, March 21, 2011 (UTC)

Actually I doesn't make sense! Why are there 8 paragon "freebies" but 15 renegade in the Eden Prime mission? Which of those points are freebies and which aren't? Right now, this "guide" is completely useless if you try to get 75% in both in one play-through! Which is THE ONLY reason to read/write such a guide in the first place.217.225.42.222 11:40, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

I was wondering if anyone knew of a way, at least in the guide, to tell what options are freebies? or if anyone had intentions to indicate them in game?Revuri (talk) 14:19, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Citadel: Negotiator's Request -- missing quotation

I recently added the Charm/Intimidate requirements in the Citadel: Negotiator's Request assignment, based on what is written on the assignment's wiki page, but I don't have a save file before this assignment and I can't get an exact quotation of the conversation option(s) necessary that result in receiving the 2 Paragon points. If anyone happens to be around that part of the game or just remembers (even vaguely) the dialogue options, and responds to this, that'd be great -- thanks in advance! Rtl42 18:34, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

• The option is simply "(Give him the stimulant.)" I believe you have to charm/intimidate him into seeking help after you get him the drug. Those options are "Then the game is wrong." (charm) and "Don't be an idiot." (intimidate). I'll try to confirm everything shortly (since my most recent save is right there in front of him; saw this tidbit missing and decided to lend a hand), and then edit the main article. Anaphysik 22:37, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
  • Yep, both that charm and that intimidate result in 2 paragon points. I don't know what the rank requirements are for the checks, though the charm one must be 4 or less (have maxed-out intimidate, so yeah, no information on that front...). Maybe someone else can find that out.Anaphysik 22:44, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

UNC: Besieged Base - renegade points for refusing the quest?

In the guide it says that when Admiral Hackett contacts you in regard to the UNC: Besieged Base assignment and you refuse by saying “That's not my problem.” you will receive 2 renegade points. I've tried this multiple times and never received the renegade points, so I'm wondering whether this is an inaccuracy in the guide or a bug in my game? --M.harmless 04:31, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Move Proposal

Since we do have some conventions about how to name articles that have differences between games, e.g. Adept Guide and Adept Guide (Mass Effect 2), I believe this article should be moved to just Morality Guide. This would follow the conventions that we seem to have established here and right now this one sticks out like a sore thumb. Lancer1289 08:52, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Support proposal. -- Commdor (Talk) 18:31, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

The proposal passes 2-0. -- Commdor (Talk) 18:31, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

Citadel: Fourth Estate

The guide says that 8para or 9ren can be gained in this interview but, I just tried multiple times with all dialogue options available and could not achieve either result. I settled for the 2 points and I probably won't look to change this since this is a play through w/ ME3 in mind. But still, I'm wondering if the entry should be changed.

You do not get points for this quest right away, but when you return to Normandy and access the map. 212.178.240.160 19:19, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

After getting command of Normandy

Missing all Paragon and Renegade gained while talking to crew on the Normandy after getting command. There is some bugs in this part, some crew can give both and some crew give neither. This seems to only be true with Pressly being a bugged one allowing both paths, Paragon and Renegade. Jandraelune 17:15, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

That's odd; so far I'm having the opposite problem - just came on board for the first time as Captain, automatically went to cutscene with Joker; after that I could speak to Joker again, but couldn't speak to Pressly until I had left the bridge and come back. And even then, I (PC, digital d'l) don't see any way to choose both options: I choose "They're on our side" and then can't pick "You doubt my decisions?", and vice versa. Also, what other possible morality point gains are you talking about? I'm not aware of any way anyone other than Pressly could give them this early in the game. --Yeti magi 03:44, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Ambiguous Format

The current format is not clear in some cases e.g.

1. Noveria

• Queen freed:
  • 2 Paragon for saying “They won't.”
  • 2 Renegade for saying “Should I guess?”
    • 2 Paragon for saying “Not these ones.
      

Here you only get "Not these ones." if you used "Should I guess?"

2. Feros

Speak with Refugees

• 24 Paragon for Charming "What about the big picture?" need 12 Charm
• 25 Renegade for Intimidating "I'll kill you first." need 10 Intimidate
  • 2 Paragon for saying "Sounds logical."
  • 2 Renegade for saying "Can't take that chance."

Here you get "Sounds logical." and "Can't take that chance." when you charmed or intimidated but it looks like you can only get them if you intimidated.

3. Citadel: Old, Unhappy, Far-Off Things (Spacer)

• 2 Paragon for saying “I'll give you the money.”
• 2 Renegade for saying “You're just a drunk.”
  • After talking to your mother
    • 8 Paragon for saying “I'll give you 20 for food.”
    • 8 Paragon for Charming “The Veteran's Affairs Office” need 4 Charm
    • 2 Renegade for saying “Screw you.”
    • 9 Renegade for Intimidating “No one understands! Waaah!” need 5 Intimidate

It looks like you need to use "You're just a drunk." to get those options under "After talking to your mother" however you don't.

These cases share the same format but have different meanings and it causes confusion.

Lieutenant Ganto Imness morality points

Not sure if this is the right place to put it but since this page is about the morality points in general for ME1 I though to post it in the talk page.

Anyways, you can get both the paragon and renegade points at once on the Virmire mission with Lieutenant Ganto Imness if you choose to leave him in the cell, then talk to him again right away and release him. --68.65.48.236 11:23, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Feros: Geth Attack - Ambassador Donnel Udina's Reaction at the Presidium

Hello,

I just double verified that you can also recieve 2 Renegade points here by saying "They were expendable."

I added the line to the wiki and updated the Feros total (merely added 2 to Renegade total) to reflect this. This was on the Xbox360 version with both DLC missions installed (though not "used" yet this playthrough).

I would assume that if the totals were correct previously, this would also mean the overall totals need to be updated accordingly, but I felt it best to leave that for the time being just in case. Honestly I still kinda have a hard time believing after all this time I'm the first one to notice this, so I wanted to make sure everything was groovy before I went to nuts with the edits.

--Toni 71 (talk) 01:01, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

X57: Bring Down the Sky

I was looking at this section and it says you get Paragon for "Let Him go to Save the Hostages" and Renegade for "Attack Him." This is not true. You do not get any morality points for these choices. I have played through this mission multiple times and I have never received Morality points for these choices.

--173.74.168.91 04:15, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Morality points are most definitely awarded for this choice. I just loaded up a saved game and ran through the mission in order to double check. For videos, see [1] at 1:50 and [2] at 4:30. Jbusnengo (talk) 04:51, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

I have never received morality points from the choice. And I have seen several sources online state that you don't receive points for it.--173.74.168.91 22:50, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Then there may be a problem with your copy of the game. If you could provide links to these sources, it would be appreciated. Jbusnengo (talk) 23:47, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well, it seems to be a bug maybe- you get the points bt no notice pops up. I have the same thing with my game (german version,Xbox360 Ms classics) I just played the mission, got no popup but got the points (can see it on the renegade-meter) so this bug is at least confirmed. --95.90.201.93 11:54, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

Conversation with Powell The Smuggler

Greetings, ME-Wikia Community,
So, I have been playing through the first ME and using this Morality Guide to try to gain as much Renegade as I can while maxing out my Paragon (I'm trying to RP, as well, playing a Colonist Sole Survivor who has some serious issues, esp. in regard to Batarians, but also anything related to criminals--who knows, perhaps I'll kill Helena Blake...).
Anyway, I'm on Eden Prime right now, and I looked through the Eden Prime subsection to see what I'd need as my maximum Charm skill to get through conversation in order to get Paragon points, and indeed, you only need 2 in order to do that. And so I put my Charm up to 2... and I couldn't get the grenade upgrade from Powell by telling him that "[he] should make amends." (Thankfully, I often keep a spare talent point or two unused just for these types of occasions, and I simply boosted my Charm to 3 and got the upgrade.) Now, while this dialogue option doesn't *yield* any Paragon points, it does require 3 Charm in order to get the "best result" out of the conversation, and so I'm thinking maybe underneath the line about gaining 2 Renegade points for saying "You're lying," it should say something like:
"NOTE: Need 3 Charm to tell him "You should make amends" in order to get a High Explosive grenade upgrade. No Paragon gained from this dialogue option."
Some might argue that this is unnecessary, as the guide is meant to help players gain Morality points, but it's also meant to be useful to players, and as someone who's primarily an end-user of this Wiki, I feel like it's not complete without some kind of mention of it. Plus, while the dialogue option doesn't give you Paragon points, Charm and Paragon are closely tied to each other, and so it still seems appropriate to me that a note should be added (and not at the bottom of the page, or something, where it won't serve any useful purpose for someone following along with the guide).
Still, I could be wrong, and so I didn't just add the line, figuring that I would leave it up to wiser editors to decide. Balarick (talk) 13:40, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Like you said yourself, this guide details how many morality points can be gained and how to gain them, nothing else.

There are other instances where your reputation (or respective skills) may determine the outcome of a situation, but the detailing of those requirements belong in the relevant mission walkthroughs, so I think this should go into Prologue: Find the Beacon instead. Elseweyr (talk) 14:14, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Not only does the Morality Guide have nothing to do with getting grenade upgrades, but it can also be acquired with sufficient Intimidate. Desiderastus (talk) 17:58, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Dialogues that require Charm / Intimidate but award no Morality

Are such dialogues listed somewhere? If not, shouldn’t they be? Imfego (talk) 18:22, March 21, 2015 (UTC)

Patched Morality?

I missed a milestone on a recent playthough and brought up the console to figure out why. It seems the milestones have changed since this page was written. In my game the milestones are 33 (10%), 83 (25%), 165 (50%), 248 (75%), and 275 (morality quest unlocks). These percentages suggest that the full bar is attained at 330. Also, there's no longer a higher requirement to obtain the second morality quest...it's 275 for both quests, which is about 83% of the full bar. Finally, all of these values are irrespective of whether I've landed on Asteroid X57.

These findings disagree with the Totals Needed section. Was this a change made for the trilogy pack, since Bring Down the Sky is always included now? I don't have any game consoles so I can't check. I'm willing to update the section if my findings are applicable to most folks still playing this game. Gourmetrix (talk) 14:34, June 24, 2015 (UTC)

33/83/248 for both meters on my install of Windows version of Legendary Edition Sergets (talk) 13:36, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Williams, in Normandy's mess after beacon explodes:

If, on Eden Prime, you were more mean to Williams than just the lines that added Renegade points, you'll have to say "Sorry if I upset you" before you can lead up to "The mission failed" for that particular +2. Desiderastus (talk) 18:08, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, pretty sure I remember that being the case. However I think it would be good to nail down exactly what dialog choices constitute "being mean" to Williams, which would require a little bit more thorough testing. E.g. is just accusing her of abandoning her squad enough, or do you need to pick additional "mean" lines as well, and that I'm less sure of. Ale89515 (talk) 20:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Mean, impatient, Renegade-leaning, "the bottom-left/bottom-right choice", whatever. The lines that actually add Renegade points aren't the issue, it's just if Shepard pushes it further in the other available exchanges with Williams, that will backfire w/r/t maximizing Renegade point yield (without requiring the "mixed message" of apologizing in between). Desiderastus (talk) 22:21, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Pressly after Shepard's promotion

Currently on the Xbox there is no need to pick the Paragon option first to get to the Renegade option; both are available simultaneously. Desiderastus (talk) 22:23, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

That note is worded a little inaccurately (will fix) -- what it's trying to say is that if you pick the Renegade option first, you can't then pick the Paragon option afterwards; but vice versa, you can, gaining both point rewards. Neo89515 (talk) 15:31, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Departing Speech

I believe I've found a discrepancy in rewards for the Departing Speech when the Normandy first launcher at the end of Expose Saren. It doesn't seem possible to get both +2 Renegade for "Nobody's going to help us" and then +2 Paragon for saying "Everyone is counting on us." Taking this path only awards +2 Renegade, no Paragon is given. Basically, it seems like the game allows you to get ONLY Paragon or ONLY Renegade from the speech, not a mix of the two. Neo89515 (talk) 14:21, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Noveria: Lorik Qui'in - Keeping evidence when making a deal with Anoleis

Currently the page has After saying "No. You're guilty" or "What do I get out of this?" as the path for the conversation to make a deal with Anoleis. I don't see where those dialog options come in to play. For me, it's "I have Lorik's evidence.", which then launches the dialog paths for trading Anoleis the evidence or charming / intimidating Anoleis into rewarding you while keeping the evidence. Am I overlooking something obvious? I'm hesitant to edit because I assume it was written up the way it was for a reason. Can someone assist in figuring this out?--Sergets (talk) 03:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

OK, so I'm not sure that this is addressing your concerns or not, but I have discovered, independently, that the interaction with Anoleis when you have the evidence and try to blackmail with him is, in a word, funky. Here's a brief summary of what I've discovered; I may add more later as I learn it (note that actual morality point rewards were verified using Console, experience rewards from verifying on the Squad screen):

• Once you have the evidence and talk to Anoleis, you always have to start off with the top left choice, "I have Lorik's evidence".
  1. After that, you immediately have both a Charm and Intimidate option on the left. NEITHER of these options should be taken immediately, as neither one rewards ANY morality points (there is no +morality point reward popup on screen, but I verified independently of that as well). However, Charm rewards a small amount of experience, and Intimidate rewards about twice as much (which makes sense, as the Intimidate score needed is much higher). The only other unique thing about immediately taking the Blue or Red options is that the dialogue differs for both, and is much more blunt (for Intimidate, you get to tell Anoleis to shut his "pie hole" which can make this option worthwhile just by itself, I'll admit). It seems the developers wanted to make this interaction reward you more for being a "smooth operator" and using finesse as opposed to the quick and direct route. The thing that's misleading about it is that the in-game written Choice Dialogue for the Blue and Red options are always identical, even though the spoken dialogue and outcomes are different depending on how you arrive at those options (i.e. Charm is always "I'm not here to arrest you." and Intimidate is always "You'll do what I say.")
  2. If you instead take any of the 3 plain white responses on the right side, each one creates a unique dialogue path, but any one of them can eventually lead to all 3 of the possible rewards (some combination of credits, morality, or XP). In order to receive these rewards, you can't pick any option that is flatly refusing to make a deal with Anoleis--doing so will reward nothing and end the conversation, though you can always talk to Anoleis again and he'll ask if you've reconsidered, so you won't shut yourself out of the reward opportunity completely by doing this.

• Reward A: minor XP and 9 Renegade points -- to get this, you pick the Charm option, which lets you keep the evidence; since it's still blackmail, so you still get Renegade points from a blue option
• Reward B: major XP and 9 Renegade points -- to get this, pick Intimidate; this also keeps the evidence
• Reward C: major XP, 9 Renegade points, and credits -- to get this, take Anoleis' bribe (the bottom right white option); this gives him the evidence, and prevents you from arresting him as well, so if you don't need cash there's really no need to take this option unless you don't have enough charm/intimidate, or you really want to see Gianna blow her stack (you get to taunt her for swearing, which I have to admit is delicious). The XP rewards are identical for B and C.

• There are a few odd twists and turns in the dialogue depending on which of the white responses you pick at Step #2:

• Explain it to the Board.: The top right response leads to 3 responses on the right; the top one refuses a deal and ends the conversation, but you can reopen it as you choose. The middle and bottom both lead to the same place but with different dialogue: 5 choices, 2 on the left, and 3 on the right. Charm leads to Reward A, Intimidate leads to Reward B, and bottom right leads to Reward C.
• Then I'll give it to Qui'in.: The middle response gets different dialogue, but ultimately ends up with the same exact choices as above.
• We can reach an agreement.: Picking this bottom right response makes you claim that you don't care about Anoleis' crimes. Uniquely, it does not immediately lead to a Charm option, but instead the next top left option is white, not blue -- choosing it offers to hand over the evidence to Anoleis in exchange for a pass. Even though in this path, Anoleis doesn't even offer you the "private investigator fee", you still receive the bribe money. In other words, Reward C. The only truly unique thing about this path is that it allows you more ways to threaten Anoleis on the right side choices -- the bottom right one "Oh, you're guilty" allows you to do so with some extra sauce not available from the above two white options.

So in summary, a surprising amount of nuance in this interaction, for an option that's already above and beyond what most people bother to do at this juncture. I must say I'm impressed. Both Noveria: Lorik Qui'in and the section on this page need some adjustments to account for the above. I'd like someone to corroborate if possible. Neo89515 (talk) 21:56, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Unless objections, I will be integrating at least some of the above into the page, and likely the relevant mission walkthrough as well. Neo89515 (talk) 18:25, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

X57 Renegade Points 1st Convo w/ Simon Atwell

Currently guide states 2 para for "They're not all like this." which is how it works for me, but for the ren side it states 2 ren for "Why wouldn't they?" or '"That's no excuse." after saying "The Conventions don't apply."' In my current playthrough on LE1 "That's no excuse." appears to be the real trigger regardless of whether "Why wouldn't they?" or "The Conventions don't apply." was taken. Taking either "Why wouldn't they?" or "The Conventions don't apply." followed by "It doesn't matter now." awards no morality points. It's been a few years since I've played OT1 but I'm about 99.95% sure it worked that way in OT1 as well. I would prefer to see someone else confirming my observations are accurate first, but I propose a better way to document these awards would be as follows:

Talking to Simon Atwell at Torch Station #1 Exit

• 2 Paragon for saying "They're not all like this."
• 2 Renegade for saying "That's no excuse." after saying "Why wouldn't they?" or "The Conventions don't apply."

Note: The left side option ("How bad is this going to be?") must be chosen or none of the above points can be gained.
--Sergets (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Can confirm through observation with the Dialogue Editor modding tool for LE1: "That's no excuse" gives 2 Rene points, "Why wouldn't they?" doesn't because its transition slot is occupied with something else ("Set_Simon_Terrists_True"). Original ME1 seems to be the exact same.--Loadingue (talk) 00:46, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Much appreciated. Sergets (talk) 03:44, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

UNC: The Negotiation

The guide currently states that there is a +9 renegade outcome for this assignment, but I can't achieve that outcome in LE, and although it's been years since I played original, I think I wasn't able to find a way to achieve this outcome in original, either. I am inclined to believe that the way that section is currently written up is incorrect. Does anyone object to having the 9 renegade line removed and the 25 renegade line moved up an indent level? Sergets (talk) 02:14, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

just checked. verified no +9 renegade - hackett debrief only awards the +25 and saw no +9 hidden or otherwise after provoking darius. you will have to recompute the totals needed elsewhere on the page though.

the numbers were correct in the earliest iterations of the page. messed up by this guy for some reason over a decade ago and somehow escaped oversight in the years since. T̴̴͕̲̞̳̖̼̱͒͛̎͒ͫ̃ͧeͩ̈̽̈҉͓̝̰̼̦̫̤̀͠m̫̪̪̯̻͎̫̅̇̓̇͌̚p̸̙̝̓̓͌ͨ͆ͣͥ̂̕o͒̽͐̽͏̞̬̻͕͔͕͚̰͍͠͞ṙ̢̞͚͈̹̰ͨ̓ͭ̈́̌ạ̢̧̪̹̺̺̣̹̲͂͆̏ͪͨ͒ͭř̹͈͜͠y̷͍̻̜̹̼̾̽̈́e̵̹̼̟̦͚͐̈́͌͘d͉̲̣̻͉̱͗̅ḭ̷̻̆͋̆̓̔͝t̨͍̦̫̗͂̅̍̋̆ͩ͝ộ̫̟̬̳̝̲̾ͫ̒̿ͮ̑̚rͯ̎ͨͭ̄̿̽͛҉̠̫̱̠̘̘̲́ͅ7̩̻ͤͩͨ͝͡8̜̣̙͇̻ͨ͛͛̆͒̆̽̒͐͜͡ ͥ̍̉̃̇ͥ̓ͨ͏̕҉̥̹͓̗̤̠̖̤ (talk) 02:53, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed response. I should have time to recompute in a few days. If someone wants to tackle it before me, keep in mind that morality quest triggers have different requirements in original and LE. See Talk:Morality_Guide#Patched_Morality? for reference. - Sergets (talk) 10:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh wait, that's not a difference in original vs LE... Umm, I take back what I wrote above about different requirements. Something seems off here. I've verified multiple times that 275 is the morality assignment unlock for both first and second in LE. However, tt has been a long time since I've played original, but I distinctly remember the second morality assignment needing more points to unlock than the first back then. Can someone with more recent original-ME1 experience confirm if both morality assignments unlock at 275 in the original too? - Sergets (talk) 10:58, 4 May 2023 (UTC)